Tolerating others' traditions

[Knoxienne]

Things I don't necessarily like but can tolerate:

1. Nurseries
2. Age-Segregated Sunday School (Sunday school was invented for heathen children in the first place, but if we have to have SS, it should be integrated like the service!)
3. Sermons which only last 30-40 minutes
4. Church sponsored women's bible studies led by women (I'm not against women teaching women, but I'm not sure this is how it should be)
5. Committees
6. Offertory during worship (I don't think passing a plate/bag/basket should be part of the service. There ought to be a giving box in the sanctuary or foyer or something. I'd rather have a longer sermon than have offertory time!)
7. Weekly Communion - the center of biblical/protestant worship is the sermon, not the sacraments/ordinances, and although I used to believe in an every week view, I've changed my mind on the necessity for that. Again, gimme a longer sermon!
8. Recitation of the Nicene/Apostle's Creed - nothing wrong with them per se, but reminds me too much of the RCC. We have reformed confessions which are more highly developed than the creeds, and if we're going to recite anything extra biblical (and that should be minimal) it should be those.
9. Pew bibles.


Things I can't tolerate i.e., I'd have to leave or not join:

Grape juice during the Lord's Supper ( I realize people struggle with drunkenness, but I don't think the solution to the problem is grape juice during the Supper, but responsibility/temperance or abstinence outside the service in our daily lives concerning alchohol. I think as reformed Christians [especially those of us with fundy/teetotaling backgrounds] we tend to be way too lax in this area.)
Choirs
Soloists
Overhead projectors during worship
Heavy liturgical bells n smells stuff like kneelers, incense, constant reciting and also with youing, etc
Preaching out of the NIV
Children's Church

May I ask why you don't like pew Bibles? I find them handy when I bring a friend to church with me who does not own her own Bible.

You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!

 

[DonP]

You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!

Also don't you think the giving of our offerings is worship?
Why would we not want to give that worship in a worship service?

We have a nursery but they are good at teaching it is for guests who have not been used to training their covenant kids to sit quietly through a sermon.

We have a cry room for when the kids overpower the sermon and sound system which occasionally happens. And they can nurse or diaper a bit more privately there, nothin puts a damper on a weak sermon like a dirty diaper in the pew in front of you or beside you.

Aren't we funny ? Good thing none of us lived in the time of Paul and met in homes or cleft of rocks eh?


How do you run out of thanks? do only get so many?

 

[LawrenceU]

7. Weekly Communion - the center of biblical/protestant worship is the sermon, not the sacraments/ordinances, and although I used to believe in an every week view, I've changed my mind on the necessity for that. Again, gimme a longer sermon!

I'd just like to note that having weekly participation of the Lord's Table does not necessitate a short sermon.

Especially not at Providence Family Fellowship!

 

[Knoxienne]

You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!

Also don't you think the giving of our offerings is worship?
Why would we not want to give that worship in a worship service?

We have a nursery but they are good at teaching it is for guests who have not been used to training their covenant kids to sit quietly through a sermon.

We have a cry room for when the kids overpower the sermon and sound system which occasionally happens. And they can nurse or diaper a bit more privately there, nothin puts a damper on a weak sermon like a dirty diaper in the pew in front of you or beside you.

Aren't we funny ? Good thing none of us lived in the time of Paul and met in homes or cleft of rocks eh?


How do you run out of thanks? do only get so many?

Yes, giving is an act of worship - I guess I just think giving should be done differently.

I love cry rooms. I think those are great. I just don't like some room hidden away somewhere with toys where children can play and moms can talk during worship.

Re: the thanks - yes, you only get 20 a day or something. They come back after a couple of hours or so and let you push 'em again.

 

[DonP]

Yes, giving is an act of worship - I guess I just think giving should be done differently.

What? you don't like being able to look and see how much the guy next to you gives so you can see if you are giving enough? A good way to develop a sense of liberty of conscience

Our cry room is a glass window front wall at he back of the auditorium with sound proof walls. Does a pretty good job but once in while we still get a laugh at those up and coming Whitfields

 

[Rich Koster]

Well if they don't use wine and have a nursery, then that's it for me I am outta there.
Actually I am more practical, the absence of padded pews does it.


Though I prefer a much stricter RPW, going on mission trips to 3rd world countries has been an eye opener. I won't even tell you what I have gone to. Some had to tell myself I was not going to a worship service but a pagan gathering to evangelize.

For a year or two we drove 2 1/2 hours each way to get to a reformed faithful church each Lord's day. They kept us for lunch every week and we drove home after eve worship. The travel in a car was not an issue for me. Being in a faithful church with a minister who understood the Word & had discipline was.

Point it what is my intent and desire. No one can make me dirty, only I can make me dirty. The Lord knows my heart and intent.
But since He has not seen fit to preserve a congregation holding to what I think He requires of them who know to do good, in every city I travel to, does not mean I am compromising.

I don't take vacations for fun where there is not a solid church. Did it once, went to a Carribean Island Pentecostal church and was able to offer some truth in the Sunday School class on Lordship salvation. But I don't feel the liberty when I have a choice for pleasure to do that. Needless to say, I with held going forward at the altar call and did not participate in being slain in a spirit. But this was all they knew.

I went to one R Catholic wedding once and will never set foot in a catholic chapel again while anything is going on except a public tour.

Excellent point.

-----Added 4/17/2009 at 05:10:25 EST-----

One thing that will send us packing is requiring children to go to either the nursery or 'children's church'. I have seen 'greeters' actually get rude at some churches when they have visiting parents that want their children to sit with them and the parents stress that it is their desire after the 'friendly suggestion'. They did this to us once and our daughter was 12 at the time. This seems to be especially rampant among those who are trying to be sensitive to seekers. Go figure.

A parent should have the option to keep the children with them. I have seen many children who do not distract the meeting. It is a joy, to me, to see a whole family together being edified, not just "there".

 

[Montanablue]

You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!

Also don't you think the giving of our offerings is worship?
Why would we not want to give that worship in a worship service?

We have a nursery but they are good at teaching it is for guests who have not been used to training their covenant kids to sit quietly through a sermon.

We have a cry room for when the kids overpower the sermon and sound system which occasionally happens. And they can nurse or diaper a bit more privately there, nothin puts a damper on a weak sermon like a dirty diaper in the pew in front of you or beside you.

Aren't we funny ? Good thing none of us lived in the time of Paul and met in homes or cleft of rocks eh?


How do you run out of thanks? do only get so many?

Yes, giving is an act of worship - I guess I just think giving should be done differently.

I love cry rooms. I think those are great. I just don't like some room hidden away somewhere with toys where children can play and moms can talk during worship.

Re: the thanks - yes, you only get 20 a day or something. They come back after a couple of hours or so and let you push 'em again.

Ditto to the cry rooms. For a short while, I was taking care of one of my cousin's children (a one year old) and she came to church with me. Like any one year old, she wasn't able to sit absolutely still for 1.5 hours and so when she got a little noisy, it was really nice to have a soundproof room so that I could still hear the sermon, but not disturb others. Also, some children are just naturally more boisterous than others, and I think its nice for parents to have a place where they can teach their children to sit quietly without having to worry about disturbing the rest of the congregation. Before we had our cry room, I remember being constantly distracted by a poor father who had to keep correcting his son.

 

[KMK]

Overhead projectors during worship

Watch out! Your dating yourself with that one.

 

[Knoxienne]

Overhead projectors during worship

Watch out! Your dating yourself with that one.

- for a grey hair smiley! I couldn't think of what else to call it at the moment.

 

[Edward]

The occasional 'liturgical dancer'? What scriptual warrant would you have for that in the first place? Worship is a serious thing. We can't just decide what we would tolerate if God's Word gives no principal.

Your views on what constitutes proper worship aren't going to have much force if you don't have proper church discipline. So I'll trade off a few errors that can be corrected against a system that doesn't correct errors at all.

If you want do debate Psalm 150, you'll probably need to do that with someone else.

 

[Reformed Thomist]

Overhead projectors during worship

Watch out! Your dating yourself with that one.

What is an 'overhead projector'?

 

[reformed trucker]

I'm known for asking questions.

Oh, so you're a troublemaker, eh?

 

[DonP]

Overhead projectors during worship

Watch out! Your dating yourself with that one.

What is an 'overhead projector'?

you put slides on it and it projects onto a wall, often used for songs by churches that can;t afford Psalters or hymnals. Love them in mexico

 

[AThornquist]

What is an 'overhead projector'?

Someone who constantly tells you things you don't understand

 

[Geneva]

I'm rather in this situation right now. Because I live in a very small and remote town, there is basically only one Bible-believing church which I can feasibly attend. (To go somewhere else would require extensive travel on Sundays - which would be prohibitive both financially and physically). Fortunately, my church does preach the gospel, although it is not reformed. As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine. I was thinking about things that would make me travel to a different church and this is what I came up with:

- Not holding to inerrancy of Scripture (this is the big one)
- Mandating extra-biblical practices/adding to God's law (for example, mandating that all of the church's children be homeschooled etc)
- Emphasizing works over faith

I think that those would be the deal-breakers for me. There are many other things that I might not be happy about, but that I could live with.

No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed

 

[Geneva]

The occasional 'liturgical dancer'? What scriptual warrant would you have for that in the first place? Worship is a serious thing. We can't just decide what we would tolerate if God's Word gives no principal.

Your views on what constitutes proper worship aren't going to have much force if you don't have proper church discipline. So I'll trade off a few errors that can be corrected against a system that doesn't correct errors at all.

If you want do debate Psalm 150, you'll probably need to do that with someone else.

Psalm 150! I'm so put in my place But, and I say it just in passing,
that the dancing in Psa. 150 has nothing to do with your "liturgical dancer"

George
Baptist minister
Louisiana

 

[Montanablue]

I'm rather in this situation right now. Because I live in a very small and remote town, there is basically only one Bible-believing church which I can feasibly attend. (To go somewhere else would require extensive travel on Sundays - which would be prohibitive both financially and physically). Fortunately, my church does preach the gospel, although it is not reformed. As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine. I was thinking about things that would make me travel to a different church and this is what I came up with:

- Not holding to inerrancy of Scripture (this is the big one)
- Mandating extra-biblical practices/adding to God's law (for example, mandating that all of the church's children be homeschooled etc)
- Emphasizing works over faith

I think that those would be the deal-breakers for me. There are many other things that I might not be happy about, but that I could live with.

No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed

I am not sure of your meaning? By "emphasizing works over faith," I meant preaching works-righteousness rather than the saving grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

 

[Edward]

Psalm 150! I'm so put in my place But, and I say it just in passing,
that the dancing in Psa. 150 has nothing to do with your "liturgical dancer"

George
Baptist minister
Louisiana

"My liturgical dancer"

I tried to be polite earlier, I'll be more direct now:

Go troll for a flame war with someone else.

 

[DonP]

No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed

I am not sure of your meaning? By "emphasizing works over faith," I meant preaching works-righteousness rather than the saving grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)[/QUOTE]

I think he means you should drive a long way and go to a church that preaches the gospel

He doesn't know you too well

 

[Edward]

As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine.

Have you all thought about getting together for a reformed Bible study, or perhaps a study based on some material from RC Sproul to supplement the teaching that you all are getting at church?

 

[Rich Koster]

I'm known for asking questions.

Oh, so you're a troublemaker, eh?

Some do consider me that if they don't like to answer my questions. However, due to the lack of a formal education (seminary) I do tend to probe past the surface on some issues that provoke my curiosity.I have read several church history books, some of the early church fathers, began reading Greek words on my own (have to learn the grammar) through a concordance, systematic theology etc. I do like to have conversations with those who have the education to glean from them what I am able.

 

[Geneva]

Psalm 150! I'm so put in my place But, and I say it just in passing,
that the dancing in Psa. 150 has nothing to do with your "liturgical dancer"

George
Baptist minister
Louisiana

"My liturgical dancer"

I tried to be polite earlier, I'll be more direct now:

Go troll for a flame war with someone else.

My bad brother. Sarcasm come a little to easy for me where theology is concerned. I had no intention of offending, just arm wrestling a little. Are we good??

George L.
Baptist minister
Denham Springs, La.

 

[Montanablue]

As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine.

Have you all thought about getting together for a reformed Bible study, or perhaps a study based on some material from RC Sproul to supplement the teaching that you all are getting at church?

We have actually discussed this, and it may happen this summer. There are three other families I know of that are reformed or are leaning reformed and we've had some really good doctrinal discussions over meals together. As well, although my church isn't reformed, its not necessarily anti-reformed either, so we've toyed with the idea of seeing if we could do a formal church Bible study with some reformed materials. I don't know that our pastor would be opposed to that - he might even join in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanablue View Post

No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed
I am not sure of your meaning? By "emphasizing works over faith," I meant preaching works-righteousness rather than the saving grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

I think he means you should drive a long way and go to a church that preaches the gospel

He doesn't know you too well[/QUOTE]

Oh. Well, its actually not financially feasible for me to do so at this point and still pay my bills. And although my church may not be reformed, I do believe that it is "preaching the gospel." If it was preaching something besides the gospel, I would not be attending there.

 

[Grace Alone]

Our last church was a PCA church plant and was in retrospect, more broadly evangelical. They thought things like a soccer field, egg hunts, VBS, etc. would bring people in. But it didn't. Some people pushed for children's church and got it temporarily and it worked until there were too few people willing to help with it. I was very opposed to it. Since we left, I've seen signs for a Christian comedian/singer performance, a name change to the sign blocking the word "presbyterian", and a Bible Bowl for kids.

Nobody ever got that all the church needed to do was to be faithful to the Lord and He would bring in the new people without gimmicks. Now we are at the kind of church that gets this, thank the Lord. We do have a nursery available for the 0-2 range, and I do support that because it might be the only way they mom gets to sit through a whole sermon. We have the sermon piped in to the room for the nursery worker.

 

[Edward]

Oh. Well, its actually not financially feasible for me to do so at this point and still pay my bills. And although my church may not be reformed, I do believe that it is "preaching the gospel." If it was preaching something besides the gospel, I would not be attending there.

Put me down as voting for it better to worship with Christians who get some of the details wrong (such as Dispensationalists) and supplementing with other material to avoiding corporate worship altogether. Perhaps the study group will come together, with or without support from the church leaders.

And, you know, it isn't very Reformed to think that one has a perfect Church - the WCF addresses that directly.

-----Added 4/18/2009 at 01:50:05 EST-----

Sarcasm come a little to easy for me where theology is concerned. I had no intention of offending, just arm wrestling a little. Are we good??

George L.
Baptist minister
Denham Springs, La.

I even gave you a thank you for this post.