Wake up.
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This type of thinking is biblical; however, did the apostle have separatism in mind?
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Consistancy would mean taking this position to it's furthest conclusion; in not taking it to it's furthest conclusion would prove one guilty to a degree; this is unavoidable. One would have to be fully separatist to be above reproach.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
Consistancy would mean taking this position to it's furthest conclusion; in not taking it to it's furthest conclusion would prove one guilty to a degree; this is unavoidable. One would have to be fully separatist to be above reproach.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
And at that point we're talking about Monastaries, right?
fivepointcalvinist
Puritan Board Sophomore
jeremy, i am empathetic to your point and i agree we as Christians should abstain from secular entertainment that can be damaging to our faith. as scott mentioned though, to drive home your point would be to exclude anything not explicitly religious. to an extreme, one could argue that you should not be on the internet as those who were involved in its creation may not have been religious, or specifically Christian. the internet itself is not explicitly religious and therefore should be considered secular. who is your isp? are they providing service from the basement of a church? if not you are engaging in a form of secular entertainment. the things we enjoy should be scrutinized via Scripture but taking your point would mean the exclusion of almost everything you participate in or use the services of.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Oh man...am I glad (or not) that I found this thread.
First (and I heard this on the radio just last night), the "world" that we are not to love is the world SYSTEM. That being, the system that says you have to be rich, look good, and have power to be anything in this world. THAT is what we are not to love.
God wants us to ENJOY our lives and Him, both now, and in eternity. He didn't come to be a sour puss, He came to give us LIFE and that more ABUNDANTLY. So there is nothing wrong with enjoying sports, music, or movies, especially if we do it with a thankful heart towards God. I love going to sports events with my father, and I'm sorry, but you can't tell me there's anything wrong with that.
You are free to believe what you want and nobody will condemn you for it. However, we are free as well and I happen to enjoy going to a Detroit Tigers baseball game (hate standing room though) and I have to respectfully disagree with you. God bless.
Thanks Chris, for posting the sermon. No need to apologize about the unsoft look, either. I'd say it is rather bracing.
Interesting that this morning, before I read this thread, I was contemplating the very words "Sleepers awake" during my morning commute. I think this is important, even if harsh. One of my burning passions, smothered by my own lassitude, is the problem of being satisfied and lukewarm.
I'm not sure about how the music fits into all of this for me. By nature (and even before my rather late conversion), I have not liked rock music. I don't like many movies and I don't have a TV either. It cannot be pietism in my case because I felt the same way when I was a professed atheist.
But the same problems occur in all realms. All things are lawful, but not all things are edifying--yet, as Jeremy points out: 'Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world...' I like to make and drink wine. I like to eat. So did Jesus. And these things are certainly of the world, but the are from God too. The tension is definitely there. Much to meditate upon and pray about.
Vic
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Although I agree that we should be careful what music we listen to (I kind of like the Beatles though), I do not agree that sports are "sinful". If sports are of the world and sinful then so is church as sinners (from the world) go to church.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
I think this is a great thread.
We need more like it.
We also need to learn how to take a rebuke - an essential element of sanctification.
We need more like it.
We also need to learn how to take a rebuke - an essential element of sanctification.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
There is truth in Jeremy's rebuke, but it's also mixed up with fundamentalist moralism. His last two threads have been censorious. Considering his other thread on getting rid of the name "Calvinist", it appears he's on something of a crusade to clean up the PB and the rest of Christendom.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
I will agree that it is helpful up to a point. My response (especially the "daddy says" part) may have been a little strong. But I will also say the tone and nature of his remarks in accusing people on the board whom he does not know of still being in their sins is the most sanctimonious thing I've ever seen on any ostensibly Reformed discussion board, much less on the PB.
He doesn't post in ages, then comes on with one thread accusing us of the Corinthian sin of factionalism and now this. I continue to maintain that the rebuke would have been better received via u2u instead in a public forum accusing every member of the PB by someone who clearly has a chip on his shoulder and looking to settle scores. But as the saying goes, God can strike straight blows with a crooked stick.
This thread is a good example of why it is so difficult to pastor, and why pastors and elders are so important. We certainly are called as Christians to be different, to be a city on a hill (Mt. 5:14), declaring the mighty deeds and righteousness of our God (Ps. 71:16) and whose good deeds are observed by others and cause them to glorify God (1 Peter 2:12). But at the same time, we realize that we cannot take ourselves out of the world (1 Cor. 5:10). We also are not to judge our standing with God based on what we have done, but one what Christ has done (esp. Galatians).
And so we see the twin dangers presented in this thread of legalism (you have not done X, and therefore you are not saved) and license (I'm Reformed, and have liberty of conscience so I can do whatever I want). On the one side, all involvement with popular culture is eschewed (would Jeremy say that listening to Bach or Beethoven, or reading Shakespeare is "being like the world" ) while on the other side liberty trumps personal holiness.
The truth is that each of us must take heed lest we fall. We must cultivate personal holiness, which is far greater than a to do list. I would humbly suggest that Reformed folk are far too little concerned with personal holiness, and do not read enough Ryle. I would also suggest that Jeremy should study the Puritans more, and see that the same men who were "violent" (Mt. 11:12) about the holiness of God knew how to enjoy the good things God gave them. It is frankly insufficient to use 1 John 2:15 as a proof text for actions. Why? Because I get to define what is "worldly." That is exactly what the Pharisees did. I mean exactly. It is what modern fundamentalists do. They condemn as sin that which our Lord did (e.g. drink wine) because it "smacks of the world" and "drinking is such a problem for the world." Rather, we should look at what the Bible calls sin, and not shirk from calling that sin.
And so we see the twin dangers presented in this thread of legalism (you have not done X, and therefore you are not saved) and license (I'm Reformed, and have liberty of conscience so I can do whatever I want). On the one side, all involvement with popular culture is eschewed (would Jeremy say that listening to Bach or Beethoven, or reading Shakespeare is "being like the world" ) while on the other side liberty trumps personal holiness.
The truth is that each of us must take heed lest we fall. We must cultivate personal holiness, which is far greater than a to do list. I would humbly suggest that Reformed folk are far too little concerned with personal holiness, and do not read enough Ryle. I would also suggest that Jeremy should study the Puritans more, and see that the same men who were "violent" (Mt. 11:12) about the holiness of God knew how to enjoy the good things God gave them. It is frankly insufficient to use 1 John 2:15 as a proof text for actions. Why? Because I get to define what is "worldly." That is exactly what the Pharisees did. I mean exactly. It is what modern fundamentalists do. They condemn as sin that which our Lord did (e.g. drink wine) because it "smacks of the world" and "drinking is such a problem for the world." Rather, we should look at what the Bible calls sin, and not shirk from calling that sin.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
20 years ago Megadeth did have a couple of songs dabbling in the occult ("The Conjuring" and "Bad Omen"). But they no longer play those songs as they are in conflict with leader Dave Mustaine's current beliefs, which some say is Christianity. Some cite the ongoing feud with Kerry King of Slayer (for whom the satanic label is more fitting) and refusal to appear with "death metal" acts. Despite the increasing Biblical references in his writing over the years, I have yet to see a clear unambiguous testimony, but I have seen evidence that he is perhaps not far from the kingdom. Perhaps under the influence of his mentor Alice Cooper, who does have a clear testimony, we will yet have cause to rejoice. So I disagree that they are currently satanic in nature (certainly not in the way you intend in your rebuke) and if you were familiar with their more recent output like The System Has Failed that I listed, you'd know that.
That being said, I maintain that the notorious Black Sabbath is not as bad as much of the pop music that is more innocuous on the surface, like say, Chicago, some of whose songs are as Satanic as it gets (e.g. "You're the meaning in my life, you're the inspiration" and "If you leave me now you'll take away the biggest part of me" but since they don't have the other expected trappings, ignorant religionists don't get that the devil generally appears as an angel of light). Right or wrong, the aforementioned Greg Bahnsen listened to Black Sabbath and many of the other artists listed and was said to have an encyclopedic knowledge of rock music. So Jeremy consigns him to the flames as well.
I will grant that spending much time listening to any pop music is not a good way to redeem the time, and had your rebuke been in that vein it would have been much better received. I will grant that the postings in the entertainment forum were perhaps unwise and apt to give some weaker brothers and others the wrong idea. I do not believe that we have liberty to do anything that we want and do think "Reformed antinomianism" is a real problem. (Going beyond moderation, some make light of drunkenness, for example). So I will take this as a rebuke in that area and take the Samuel Miller article to heart, which will likely also result in sharply reduced activity here.
Philippians 4:8 is a good admonition. 1 Pet. 4:15 is worthy of consideration as well:
"But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters."
[Edited on 8-29-2006 by Pilgrim]
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Fred, thank you for these balanced remarks. I've been meaning to take Holiness off the shelf for a long while. My time over the past few months has certainly been too occupied with various recreations and things that are not generally profitable, and I will take this to heart.
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
Bravo Fred!! I agree totally and it sure is a hard thing to thread our way between those two extremes. Pastoral care is very important here. I am constantly trying to decypher what fiction or movie or whatever is appropriate and what is not and it is sometimes easier to just throw it all out and go to the legalist side but there lies danger also.
Oh the struggles of being between the now and the not yet. The tension is, God willing, sanctifying in the end.
"But you are like dogs returned to your own vomit."
"You're a bunch of dreamers thinking you are Christians."
"Every one of you involved in these things ought to seriously reconsider where you are with the Lord. "
Thanks for the head's up. I'll take my chances.
I don't even like most of those bands mentioned. In fact, I like so little metal that I really don't even feel personally riled by your post. But the principle of the matter does kind of irk me.
Apparently you aren't an elder (at least according to your sig.), you don't know any of us, and you just made a blanket indictment of, apparently, most of the people who post in these forums, based on a few metal bands. You don't know these people, you've never met these people, of your own admission you didn't u2u them, and you get on here and call them dogs, say they are dreaming if they are Christians, etc.
Please.
The Master may have used harsh words, but you aren't the master. You're not even an elder. And if you are, you certainly aren't *their* elder.
But aside from the post, and on to the issues in general.
Like Fred said (not that I'm saying he'll agree with what I've written, but as to the one comment he made...), are we allowed to listen to Bach and read Shakespeare? I mean, that's such a *common* retort in these discussions that its overlooked. I mean anytime this issue comes up, you know someone's going to make the "Shakespeare" comment.
Just like every other discussion on this board. You can prognosticate the first two pages without reading it. However, its still a valid point. Are we allowed to take pleasure in reading mythology? I love Norse mythology. But it involves ancient gods. Do I need to stop reading it? Fair enough. The Icelandic sagas are more in the line of history, but they still reference gods and spirits now and then. Are they out of the window?
As much as we make fun of charismatics and dispensationalists, I think we miss the point with "Satanic" bands. Don't get me wrong. I don't like any "Satanic" bands, just because I find them rather lame. However, we're still being pretty "Frank Peretti" by blowing that out of proportion. Just like Pilgrim, I think, said, there is a "Satanic" MINDSET in all of secular music. And I personally think the pro-good ole' boy, lip-service to God junk is MORE Satanic than flagrantly "Satanic" bands. Anything that allies itself against a Christian worldview is "Satanic", and I'm rather sure that Satan's main strategies in the culture are a lot more sophisticated than 80's hair and pentagrams.
Can we listen to Wagner? I mean, he had some questionable views on Semites. History, if its not our job and not directly related to Scripture (for instance, reading it for pleasure) is full of adultery, murder, greed, etc. Do we sin by exposing ourselves? Can I look at classical art from the Roman period that might have a nude woman? If I go to a European art museum, do I have to close my eyes and walk past those?
I mean I guess some of these are arguments ad absurdum, but still, its where your position logically leads. You just don't take it there, and instead focus on an "easy" target, that is, metal.
Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and I worry more about the local Catholic church and the old fashioned American religion than Satanic bands.
But anyway.
As an aside note, the Reformed tradition has always kind of befuddled me. If any Wesleyan came on here and taught second-blessing perfectionism, we would absolutely run him out of town with frothing mouths, torches, and pitchforks. We'd write seventeen tomes on Romans 7 and bemoan our utter sinfulness unto death.
But on the other hand, sometimes I feel like we are almost *more* practically perfectionist than Wesleyans. I mean you probably have people on here that have been saved a few years, came to the doctrines of grace, came to paedobaptism & covenant theology, stopped sleeping around and doing drugs (I mean, I did), and yet if they watch NASCAR on a Sunday (even if they've gone so far as to willingly not work on that Sunday out of respect for it), or listen to a 70's rock band, you have people on this board who will lampoon and call them dogs.
I mean its happened before. Its just funny. We'll talk about our sinfulness so much w/Nazarenes, Pentecostals, and Keswick adherents that an outsider would think that nothing at all had changed inside. And yet the smallest little flaw is magnified into an anathema-meriting unforgiveable sin.
Now, I'm not saying we SHOULDN'T cultivate personal holiness. I'm not saying we don't have to be ever-vigilant about what we allow into our minds as entertainment. But the "spirit" in which that post was given unnerves and irritates me, to be blunt.
But... I'm over it. After all, as the higher up's always say...
this ain't my church. just a message board.
"You're a bunch of dreamers thinking you are Christians."
"Every one of you involved in these things ought to seriously reconsider where you are with the Lord. "
Thanks for the head's up. I'll take my chances.
I don't even like most of those bands mentioned. In fact, I like so little metal that I really don't even feel personally riled by your post. But the principle of the matter does kind of irk me.
Apparently you aren't an elder (at least according to your sig.), you don't know any of us, and you just made a blanket indictment of, apparently, most of the people who post in these forums, based on a few metal bands. You don't know these people, you've never met these people, of your own admission you didn't u2u them, and you get on here and call them dogs, say they are dreaming if they are Christians, etc.
Please.
The Master may have used harsh words, but you aren't the master. You're not even an elder. And if you are, you certainly aren't *their* elder.
But aside from the post, and on to the issues in general.
Like Fred said (not that I'm saying he'll agree with what I've written, but as to the one comment he made...), are we allowed to listen to Bach and read Shakespeare? I mean, that's such a *common* retort in these discussions that its overlooked. I mean anytime this issue comes up, you know someone's going to make the "Shakespeare" comment.
Just like every other discussion on this board. You can prognosticate the first two pages without reading it. However, its still a valid point. Are we allowed to take pleasure in reading mythology? I love Norse mythology. But it involves ancient gods. Do I need to stop reading it? Fair enough. The Icelandic sagas are more in the line of history, but they still reference gods and spirits now and then. Are they out of the window?
As much as we make fun of charismatics and dispensationalists, I think we miss the point with "Satanic" bands. Don't get me wrong. I don't like any "Satanic" bands, just because I find them rather lame. However, we're still being pretty "Frank Peretti" by blowing that out of proportion. Just like Pilgrim, I think, said, there is a "Satanic" MINDSET in all of secular music. And I personally think the pro-good ole' boy, lip-service to God junk is MORE Satanic than flagrantly "Satanic" bands. Anything that allies itself against a Christian worldview is "Satanic", and I'm rather sure that Satan's main strategies in the culture are a lot more sophisticated than 80's hair and pentagrams.
Can we listen to Wagner? I mean, he had some questionable views on Semites. History, if its not our job and not directly related to Scripture (for instance, reading it for pleasure) is full of adultery, murder, greed, etc. Do we sin by exposing ourselves? Can I look at classical art from the Roman period that might have a nude woman? If I go to a European art museum, do I have to close my eyes and walk past those?
I mean I guess some of these are arguments ad absurdum, but still, its where your position logically leads. You just don't take it there, and instead focus on an "easy" target, that is, metal.
Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and I worry more about the local Catholic church and the old fashioned American religion than Satanic bands.
But anyway.
As an aside note, the Reformed tradition has always kind of befuddled me. If any Wesleyan came on here and taught second-blessing perfectionism, we would absolutely run him out of town with frothing mouths, torches, and pitchforks. We'd write seventeen tomes on Romans 7 and bemoan our utter sinfulness unto death.
But on the other hand, sometimes I feel like we are almost *more* practically perfectionist than Wesleyans. I mean you probably have people on here that have been saved a few years, came to the doctrines of grace, came to paedobaptism & covenant theology, stopped sleeping around and doing drugs (I mean, I did), and yet if they watch NASCAR on a Sunday (even if they've gone so far as to willingly not work on that Sunday out of respect for it), or listen to a 70's rock band, you have people on this board who will lampoon and call them dogs.
I mean its happened before. Its just funny. We'll talk about our sinfulness so much w/Nazarenes, Pentecostals, and Keswick adherents that an outsider would think that nothing at all had changed inside. And yet the smallest little flaw is magnified into an anathema-meriting unforgiveable sin.
Now, I'm not saying we SHOULDN'T cultivate personal holiness. I'm not saying we don't have to be ever-vigilant about what we allow into our minds as entertainment. But the "spirit" in which that post was given unnerves and irritates me, to be blunt.
But... I'm over it. After all, as the higher up's always say...
this ain't my church. just a message board.
bradofshaw
Puritan Board Freshman
I saw this thread a couple of hours ago. I've been letting it sink in, because I didn't want to sound rash, defensive, libertarian, or whatever.
Jeremy, I think you will find that there are many people in the Reformed community who listen to heavy metal, watch rated R movies, watch football on Sunday, etc. Please don't let my taste in music offend you. If you have become convicted that something like heavy metal is causing you to sin, by all means avoid it. But also know that there are Christians of clean consience with the Lord who are able to enjoy these things without sinning.
I am by no means beyond correction, and your admonition is applicable to all of us. I will be the first to admit that I struggle with loving the things of this world. And rock music is something that takes up a disproportionate amount of my time, I will admit. I spend much time not only listening to it, but studying it, learning its history, analyzing its merits and dismerits, and trying to ascertain the worldview of its composer. In the sense that I spend a lot of time around a genre of music which has so many sinful associations (drugs, alcohol, rebellion, etc.), and given the fact that I do listen to (and even enjoy) certain bands which are explicitly unchristian, I understand how one could get the "appearance of evil" which we are called to avoid. That is a matter which I will take into consideration.
However, I am volunteering much of this information, because I feel that your admonition, while perhaps well meaning, was made in ignorance. I'm not sure which of the bands that I mentioned offended you (Marillion should not be confused in any way shape or form with Marylin Manson). To be sure, some of these bands do have offensive material. But not all of them. Several were Christians. Most, the average person has not even heard of. Beyond that though, all of them have created worthwhile music that the discerning Christian can enjoy.
To give an extreme example (pun intended), the album Extreme II which I mentioned deals with topics of sexual debauchery, decadence, and moral decay. It is an album I own which I rarely listen to because of the difficult material (which is largely satirical). Yet the album closes with the statement (by pseudo-Christian/moralist frontman Gary Cherone) that such a life is empty, and vain. It is debatable, and some believe, that Cherone is referencing a need for a relationship with God when he sings, "there's a hole in my heart which can only be filled by you." The satire is meant to illustrate the futility of these things, and the depth of depravity our culture has ascented to as acceptable.
So you have a question of discernment. But you can't have a question of discernment if we are going to say that "all things not explicitly Christian are evil." I don't think this is what you are saying. There are many merits to Extreme II. Beyond even the lyrical content, there is a lot that can be learned from the music itself (many will disagree I'm sure). The question is, as Christians, do we have the ablity to evaluate the art of non-christians and not sin?
I made this statement, and you quoted me as saying:
"I am impressed by the number of metal heads on this board."
Surely you can see the irony in this. I did not make this statement because I consider myself a metal head (I truly don't listen to that much metal, and you would never know if I did by looking at me, honest). I also did not make this statement because I was impressed by the number of folks on the board who "gave the appearance of evil." Nor was it a praise for those metal bands which are meritless. Rather, I was impressed that this was a place where I could discuss this music with other likeminded, Reformed Christians who did not simply dismiss metal as "the devil's music" etc. There are some good metal bands, and some not-so-good metal bands. We should be able to discuss which ones are and which ones aren't, and have well thought out reasons why. Rest assured, I do not listen to any of these bands without considering their merrits, and whether they are profitable.
I will admit, that we should look much different than those of the world who follow the rock and roll lifestyle. I still do not believe that rock music then is unredeemable, or that all of its elements are evil, or that there are no worthwhile rock bands. I also wish this discussion could take place without accusations (by either side), as there is obviously much more likelihood for agreement when we don't stir up emotions and make each other defensive. "As much as is possible, be at peace with all men"
Anyway, good day/night. I've gotta go and won't be back till tomorrow if this discussion continues.
[Edited on 8-29-2006 by bradofshaw]
Jeremy, I think you will find that there are many people in the Reformed community who listen to heavy metal, watch rated R movies, watch football on Sunday, etc. Please don't let my taste in music offend you. If you have become convicted that something like heavy metal is causing you to sin, by all means avoid it. But also know that there are Christians of clean consience with the Lord who are able to enjoy these things without sinning.
I am by no means beyond correction, and your admonition is applicable to all of us. I will be the first to admit that I struggle with loving the things of this world. And rock music is something that takes up a disproportionate amount of my time, I will admit. I spend much time not only listening to it, but studying it, learning its history, analyzing its merits and dismerits, and trying to ascertain the worldview of its composer. In the sense that I spend a lot of time around a genre of music which has so many sinful associations (drugs, alcohol, rebellion, etc.), and given the fact that I do listen to (and even enjoy) certain bands which are explicitly unchristian, I understand how one could get the "appearance of evil" which we are called to avoid. That is a matter which I will take into consideration.
However, I am volunteering much of this information, because I feel that your admonition, while perhaps well meaning, was made in ignorance. I'm not sure which of the bands that I mentioned offended you (Marillion should not be confused in any way shape or form with Marylin Manson). To be sure, some of these bands do have offensive material. But not all of them. Several were Christians. Most, the average person has not even heard of. Beyond that though, all of them have created worthwhile music that the discerning Christian can enjoy.
To give an extreme example (pun intended), the album Extreme II which I mentioned deals with topics of sexual debauchery, decadence, and moral decay. It is an album I own which I rarely listen to because of the difficult material (which is largely satirical). Yet the album closes with the statement (by pseudo-Christian/moralist frontman Gary Cherone) that such a life is empty, and vain. It is debatable, and some believe, that Cherone is referencing a need for a relationship with God when he sings, "there's a hole in my heart which can only be filled by you." The satire is meant to illustrate the futility of these things, and the depth of depravity our culture has ascented to as acceptable.
So you have a question of discernment. But you can't have a question of discernment if we are going to say that "all things not explicitly Christian are evil." I don't think this is what you are saying. There are many merits to Extreme II. Beyond even the lyrical content, there is a lot that can be learned from the music itself (many will disagree I'm sure). The question is, as Christians, do we have the ablity to evaluate the art of non-christians and not sin?
I made this statement, and you quoted me as saying:
"I am impressed by the number of metal heads on this board."
Surely you can see the irony in this. I did not make this statement because I consider myself a metal head (I truly don't listen to that much metal, and you would never know if I did by looking at me, honest). I also did not make this statement because I was impressed by the number of folks on the board who "gave the appearance of evil." Nor was it a praise for those metal bands which are meritless. Rather, I was impressed that this was a place where I could discuss this music with other likeminded, Reformed Christians who did not simply dismiss metal as "the devil's music" etc. There are some good metal bands, and some not-so-good metal bands. We should be able to discuss which ones are and which ones aren't, and have well thought out reasons why. Rest assured, I do not listen to any of these bands without considering their merrits, and whether they are profitable.
I will admit, that we should look much different than those of the world who follow the rock and roll lifestyle. I still do not believe that rock music then is unredeemable, or that all of its elements are evil, or that there are no worthwhile rock bands. I also wish this discussion could take place without accusations (by either side), as there is obviously much more likelihood for agreement when we don't stir up emotions and make each other defensive. "As much as is possible, be at peace with all men"
Anyway, good day/night. I've gotta go and won't be back till tomorrow if this discussion continues.
[Edited on 8-29-2006 by bradofshaw]
Ivan
Pastor
Gentlemen,
In first response since it's an important question, GRACE FELLOWSHIP claims to be Reformed Baptist (1689ers). But my wife and I haven't gone there in a few weeks because we have noticed they are Reformed in name only. If you look on their website, under statement of faith, they merely say they believe whatever is in the 1689 confession. Yet after a while being there, we have seen otherwise. (You have to understand, I take it seriously when a church says they believe one thing and does the opposite.) I even confronted one of the pastors about one of the issues, which was clearly stated in the confession, and they basically gave me the 'get lost' treatment. So anyway, if it would be less of a stumblingblock to know this, I offer you this info. But trust me, I'm not a Lone Ranger or anything like that, I understand our need to be a local body. But that's a discussion for another time.
I thank you much for all the responses. Wow! I read them ALL carefully. Seeing that it would be impossible to respond to all of them, I'll make a brief synopsis of what I believe to be going on here.
One thing I know to be sure is the extreme danger of legalism. I suffered under the bondage of legalism from 7th grade to 12th at an Arminian Baptist school. Believe me, we were brow beated day in and day out.
I'm not too sure though how my saying that it is evil to listen to Megadeath is being legalistic. Have I not spoken about the power of Jesus precious blood? I am not the master, nor an elder, but ask yourself, what WOULD the master say? Would Jesus sit down with you and listen to it? Would he sit down with you and a bowl of popcorn and watch 'Eyes Wide Shut' like one of you posted here in the movie thread. He would probably tell you to pluck your eye out, because it's better to go into life maimed than to have your whole body thrown into hell.
You may be getting the impression from my original post that I was aiming at any and all forms of recreation. Sorry if I gave you that impression. To be honest with you, whenever I can afford it, I have a bottle of wine (spread out over the weekend). I play with my son as much as possible.
What the issue is here is not what I think or what you think, but what God thinks. Seems like the favorite two words on this board are 'I think'.
Mr. Greco is right though, perhaps it's not good enough to proof text one verse or another to prove a point. But I must say that John is most certainly speaking about loving the world system as someone pointed out. All that is in the world which by nature is antithetical to God and his kingdom. All the glitz and glamour of the world with all its pomp and pride, all its lust and cravings, forgetting God and seeking pleasure rather than divine holiness...this is the world we live in. Yet when Paul tells us we could never be seperated entirely from those sinners of this world, he is not giving us an encouragement to indulge in its enticements. He's merely saying that if we are to reach the world with the gospel we will have to interact with them. If we are to go to work and provide for our families, most of us will have to spend the majority of our time interacting with the world.
I know that's one of my largest struggles is the workplace I have to go to every day. What a trial and a half! We're all going through that. And so it's hard enough being in this antithetical world having God's law written in our hearts, having to go to work every day to hear the swearing and the dirty jokes, to go to the store for a gallon of milk and have to see the half naked women on the magazine covers at the checkout. Pretty much everywhere we go, we see lawlessness running rampant. And so my question is this, if as the Bible says having been justified by faith we have peace with God and that we must let this peace reign in our hearts, how can we come home every day out of the rain into the safety of our homes and impose the world on ourselves all over again? Ought not the desire of every blood bought child of God be to be holy? I don't know about you, but as soon as I get home from work, I make every effort possible to forget the world and turn to the things of God which I have been unable to fully engage in during the day.
Has anyone ever read 'The Christian Pilgrim' by Jonathan Edwards? He speaks of the Christian life as a continual journey towards heaven. Our back is turned to the world and our course is set for heaven, right?
Don't get so caught up in opinions on this matter and arguing as if it were a matter of personal preference. If this issue were a matter of personal preference, I would not bring it up. This is actually a matter of surrender and obedience to our Lord to which every one of us is called. The Shorter Catechism puts sanctification into a great definition:
Q. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God's free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.
And so are we by the grace of God dying to our sins and living to righteousness, or are we living in sin and despising what is good?
Perhaps I need a course on how to communicate to another person something I believe to be important. Perhaps someone else could have communicated the issue in a more constructive way. I know that I always try to be grateful when someone shows me something I need to deal with. It hurts my pride at first, but I try to ask the Lord for grace to see what they are talking about and for grace to change.
As to some of the responses in this thread, I can only say I'm sorry you feel that telling someone they're headed for trouble when they are is wrong. Isn't that true love? If I saw my son out in the road with a Mack truck coming his way at 65 MPH, I think the loving thing would be to let him know. How is it then that I am an evil Pharisee for telling you the truth?
In first response since it's an important question, GRACE FELLOWSHIP claims to be Reformed Baptist (1689ers). But my wife and I haven't gone there in a few weeks because we have noticed they are Reformed in name only. If you look on their website, under statement of faith, they merely say they believe whatever is in the 1689 confession. Yet after a while being there, we have seen otherwise. (You have to understand, I take it seriously when a church says they believe one thing and does the opposite.) I even confronted one of the pastors about one of the issues, which was clearly stated in the confession, and they basically gave me the 'get lost' treatment. So anyway, if it would be less of a stumblingblock to know this, I offer you this info. But trust me, I'm not a Lone Ranger or anything like that, I understand our need to be a local body. But that's a discussion for another time.
I thank you much for all the responses. Wow! I read them ALL carefully. Seeing that it would be impossible to respond to all of them, I'll make a brief synopsis of what I believe to be going on here.
One thing I know to be sure is the extreme danger of legalism. I suffered under the bondage of legalism from 7th grade to 12th at an Arminian Baptist school. Believe me, we were brow beated day in and day out.
I'm not too sure though how my saying that it is evil to listen to Megadeath is being legalistic. Have I not spoken about the power of Jesus precious blood? I am not the master, nor an elder, but ask yourself, what WOULD the master say? Would Jesus sit down with you and listen to it? Would he sit down with you and a bowl of popcorn and watch 'Eyes Wide Shut' like one of you posted here in the movie thread. He would probably tell you to pluck your eye out, because it's better to go into life maimed than to have your whole body thrown into hell.
You may be getting the impression from my original post that I was aiming at any and all forms of recreation. Sorry if I gave you that impression. To be honest with you, whenever I can afford it, I have a bottle of wine (spread out over the weekend). I play with my son as much as possible.
What the issue is here is not what I think or what you think, but what God thinks. Seems like the favorite two words on this board are 'I think'.
Mr. Greco is right though, perhaps it's not good enough to proof text one verse or another to prove a point. But I must say that John is most certainly speaking about loving the world system as someone pointed out. All that is in the world which by nature is antithetical to God and his kingdom. All the glitz and glamour of the world with all its pomp and pride, all its lust and cravings, forgetting God and seeking pleasure rather than divine holiness...this is the world we live in. Yet when Paul tells us we could never be seperated entirely from those sinners of this world, he is not giving us an encouragement to indulge in its enticements. He's merely saying that if we are to reach the world with the gospel we will have to interact with them. If we are to go to work and provide for our families, most of us will have to spend the majority of our time interacting with the world.
I know that's one of my largest struggles is the workplace I have to go to every day. What a trial and a half! We're all going through that. And so it's hard enough being in this antithetical world having God's law written in our hearts, having to go to work every day to hear the swearing and the dirty jokes, to go to the store for a gallon of milk and have to see the half naked women on the magazine covers at the checkout. Pretty much everywhere we go, we see lawlessness running rampant. And so my question is this, if as the Bible says having been justified by faith we have peace with God and that we must let this peace reign in our hearts, how can we come home every day out of the rain into the safety of our homes and impose the world on ourselves all over again? Ought not the desire of every blood bought child of God be to be holy? I don't know about you, but as soon as I get home from work, I make every effort possible to forget the world and turn to the things of God which I have been unable to fully engage in during the day.
Has anyone ever read 'The Christian Pilgrim' by Jonathan Edwards? He speaks of the Christian life as a continual journey towards heaven. Our back is turned to the world and our course is set for heaven, right?
Don't get so caught up in opinions on this matter and arguing as if it were a matter of personal preference. If this issue were a matter of personal preference, I would not bring it up. This is actually a matter of surrender and obedience to our Lord to which every one of us is called. The Shorter Catechism puts sanctification into a great definition:
Q. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God's free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.
And so are we by the grace of God dying to our sins and living to righteousness, or are we living in sin and despising what is good?
Perhaps I need a course on how to communicate to another person something I believe to be important. Perhaps someone else could have communicated the issue in a more constructive way. I know that I always try to be grateful when someone shows me something I need to deal with. It hurts my pride at first, but I try to ask the Lord for grace to see what they are talking about and for grace to change.
As to some of the responses in this thread, I can only say I'm sorry you feel that telling someone they're headed for trouble when they are is wrong. Isn't that true love? If I saw my son out in the road with a Mack truck coming his way at 65 MPH, I think the loving thing would be to let him know. How is it then that I am an evil Pharisee for telling you the truth?
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Jeremy, if your first post would have been this post there would have been NO ISSUES about it. This post was amazing and I wish we could have started this discussion with it!
Originally posted by houseparent
Jeremy, if your first post would have been this post there would have been NO ISSUES about it. This post was amazing and I wish we could have started this discussion with it!
Thanks friend.
Trying to gather my composure at 11:30 at night while trying to discern matters of eternal weight while dealing with 101 trials in life makes for a long time getting to the point.
Sorry I came across as self-righteous at the beginning. Not intended.
Thanks for the feedback. Gotta get some sleep!
Blessings!
[Edited on 8-30-2006 by Jeremy]
Jeremy, I am almost where you are with respect to movies. The Miller sermon is definiately worth the attention of anyone who has ever watched any movies. I am increasingly more sympathetic to the idea that movies are nothing more than brain poison.
http://puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19675
About a week ago my mother and grandmother were watching a movie down stairs. I avoided seeing about half of it but then thought I'd just catch a glimpse. I ended up watching the whole thing. The movie was a tragedy. My heart was utterly crushed by the mock misery of a fictional chinese family. I thought to myself, there is no justification for enduring this kind of depression for the purpose of amusement. There are REAL people suffering REAL hardships right outside my door but I feel nothing for them. How much can I feel when my mind has been barraged by an excitement of false emotion and rapid succession of images mimicking and mocking the worst of human suffering?
http://covenanter.org/Practical/Theatre/theatre.htm
[Edited on 8-30-2006 by Peter]
http://puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19675
About a week ago my mother and grandmother were watching a movie down stairs. I avoided seeing about half of it but then thought I'd just catch a glimpse. I ended up watching the whole thing. The movie was a tragedy. My heart was utterly crushed by the mock misery of a fictional chinese family. I thought to myself, there is no justification for enduring this kind of depression for the purpose of amusement. There are REAL people suffering REAL hardships right outside my door but I feel nothing for them. How much can I feel when my mind has been barraged by an excitement of false emotion and rapid succession of images mimicking and mocking the worst of human suffering?
http://covenanter.org/Practical/Theatre/theatre.htm
[Edited on 8-30-2006 by Peter]
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Mr. Walsh,
So far you have offered us no argument other than the opinion of yourself and your father that ever listening to Megadeth, for example, and engaging in other "worldly" activities (which you have yet to define) is intrinsically evil and sinful. I'm open to correction, but the "everybody knows" argument is going over like a lead balloon over here.
Many cults speak of the power of Jesus blood. Legalism in its various forms seldom denies the power of the blood outright, it simply annexes various works to it. As Fred stated, legalism is preaching that you have to do x or not do y or you are not saved.
For what it's worth the individual who touted "Eyes Wide Shut" is no longer a member of this board. Furthermore, he was questioned on it at the time he posted, thus demonstrating that you would perhaps have been better served in initially attempting to contact members (or the moderators/admins) privately with your concerns instead of accusing the entire board like you did in your initial post. The report button that you see next to the quote button on every post is there for a reason.
I will be the first to admit that I have often failed to cultivate personal holiness and have been too little concerned with it. Again, I agree with you up to a point regarding entertainment. Are these things often unprofitable? Yes. Is whatever profit that may occasionally be gleaned from them usually better expressed elsewhere? Yes. Are there better ways to redeem the time? In general, yes. Had your comments been presented in that way, there would have been little or no argument from myself or anyone else. But when you say that it is sinful in and of itself to listen to "worldly music" (which is a broad enough category to include Beethoven) and other "worldly entertainments" and attempt to bind the conscience beyond scripture, repeatedly suggesting that no one who has received the Holy Spirit could be involved in such activities, I am compelled to respond for the sake of the gospel.
[Edited on 8-30-2006 by Pilgrim]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jeremy said: "But I must say that John is most certainly speaking about loving the world system as someone pointed out. All that is in the world which by nature is antithetical to God and his kingdom. All the glitz and glamour of the world with all its pomp and pride, all its lust and cravings, forgetting God and seeking pleasure rather than divine holiness...this is the world we live in."
The world system though, is the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. It is the drive to be rich, successful, and powerful. Enjoying a baseball game is not anywhere in this category. Who says one is forgetting God? Last year I went to a Tigers game and before the game they had some of the Christian players speak. My favourite player even said that "this is what I do but it's not who I am". How could we possibly forget God there? Heck, there are times I've been to sporting events and I've thanked God for the chance to be there, for the fact that I can walk (despite awful knees), and the fact that I can see.
Your desire to help us is commendable; the way you went about it could...use some help so to speak. Try to remember that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Much more wicked than a baseball game.
(edited to bold Jeremy's statement)
[Edited on 8-30-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
The world system though, is the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. It is the drive to be rich, successful, and powerful. Enjoying a baseball game is not anywhere in this category. Who says one is forgetting God? Last year I went to a Tigers game and before the game they had some of the Christian players speak. My favourite player even said that "this is what I do but it's not who I am". How could we possibly forget God there? Heck, there are times I've been to sporting events and I've thanked God for the chance to be there, for the fact that I can walk (despite awful knees), and the fact that I can see.
Your desire to help us is commendable; the way you went about it could...use some help so to speak. Try to remember that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Much more wicked than a baseball game.
(edited to bold Jeremy's statement)
[Edited on 8-30-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Guys
You don't think his last post was MUCH better and more edifying?
You don't think his last post was MUCH better and more edifying?
I thought Jeremy's last post was excellent.
I think the initial post lacked "completeness". The last one crystalized it. I really don't have an issue with what he is saying.
I may think there is more liberty than he does...I listen to non-Christian music. I watch R-rated movies...however, I do not watch movies that glorify sensuality and knowingly has nudity...I can block out swearing because I think it's ridiculous...If the content of a movie doesn't allow me to think biblically...then it's a poor movie choice.
Certain music groups produce horrible music...I do not listen to the radio much...if it's the Black Eyed Peas, Syria (sp?), I can't think of anyone else...if it's simply bragging about luxurious spending (bmw's and bling), sex, drugs, violence...then it's wrong. I'm not saying songs can't talk about such things, but the intent...which is what drives the message, needs to be taken into account. That is one reason I disdain CCM. There is some good stuff out there, don't get me wrong...but there's a lot of bad theology parading as truth, which is harder to decipher than in non Christian music.
Jeremy: I think I agree with you more than I would disagree with you on this particular issue. I probably apply it differently, however.
I think the initial post lacked "completeness". The last one crystalized it. I really don't have an issue with what he is saying.
I may think there is more liberty than he does...I listen to non-Christian music. I watch R-rated movies...however, I do not watch movies that glorify sensuality and knowingly has nudity...I can block out swearing because I think it's ridiculous...If the content of a movie doesn't allow me to think biblically...then it's a poor movie choice.
Certain music groups produce horrible music...I do not listen to the radio much...if it's the Black Eyed Peas, Syria (sp?), I can't think of anyone else...if it's simply bragging about luxurious spending (bmw's and bling), sex, drugs, violence...then it's wrong. I'm not saying songs can't talk about such things, but the intent...which is what drives the message, needs to be taken into account. That is one reason I disdain CCM. There is some good stuff out there, don't get me wrong...but there's a lot of bad theology parading as truth, which is harder to decipher than in non Christian music.
Jeremy: I think I agree with you more than I would disagree with you on this particular issue. I probably apply it differently, however.
Chris,
It's time to decide who you're arguing with here. Are you arguing with me or your own conscience? Chris, first of all, due to not only your activities you have chosen to engage in, but moreso your attitude toward someone who is confronting you about it, I challenge you to reconsider who it is you serve.
When I first noticed this section of the Puritan board, I was floored. Chris, do you understand the spiritual influences that attend the bands you listen to? Who do you think is behind those things? God?
Do you understand what conversion is? Do you know what it means to be turned from darkness to light? Do you have the mind of Christ? Have you experienced the saving power of Christ?
Let me tell you a little bit about the background behind the things you love. The principle behind death metal is Satanic in its beat, in its attitude, in its lyrics, in its message and in its influence. The kind of people who like this music walk around wearing black, wearing lip and nose rings and Slayer T-shirts. These are the kind of kids that slew their teachers and fellow students at Columbine High School.
And you not only say you are a Christian, but you identify yourself with Christians of the past (Puritans) who would have had you thrown out of the church on your ear. So don't start telling me I have not presented anything but opinion on this board while the saints of ages past would have delivered you over to Satan hand and foot.
Why don't you try reading for yourself what the church has believed in ages past before trying to justify your wicked lifestyle and telling me I am in error.
I beg you to choose this day whom you will serve.
Croghanite
Puritan Board Sophomore
Every time I have read what Jeremy posts, my first reaction is Yes! He sees the evil in the things that are worldly (not of God). There is no way around it, it is what it is. His message is harsh because it strikes home with so many of us.
On the other hand, I dont get some of the comments you add that are not pertaining to the main message/ warning.
For example: "while the saints of ages past would have delivered you over to Satan hand and foot."
Anyway, The main message is on point.
[Edited on 8-31-2006 by LAYMAN JOE]
On the other hand, I dont get some of the comments you add that are not pertaining to the main message/ warning.
For example: "while the saints of ages past would have delivered you over to Satan hand and foot."
Anyway, The main message is on point.
[Edited on 8-31-2006 by LAYMAN JOE]
I think he is talking about church discipline as per 1 Cor 5:5
I think, to a small extent, some in this thread are talking past each other. Perhaps the bone of contention could be narrowed down to this:
Is it permissible for christians to partake of any entertainment from the world at all?
Is it possible for christiant to 'take the good and leave the bad' from these things?
- Status
