What day was hell created?

[Fogetaboutit]

This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.

The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.

Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.

 

[earl40]

Time and space is a creation of God and only God Himself, as Joshua noted, is supra-temporal and spatial.

The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.

I believe God is indeed the only supra-temporal and supra-spatial being and I assume that the angels were created in time and space even though they are spirits. Now you can correct me if I am wrong, but if angels were indeed created in time and Genesis appears to imply God created time when He created the "heavens and earth" are you saying it Genesis 1 1-2 is not part of the first day? If not I can see where the gap theory may be a possibly correct and the stuff that makes up our universe may be billions of years old.

Of course if the angels can transcend time we now have other beings beside The Lord which are supra temporal. This I reject and can say almost dogmatically that the angels were created between Gen 1:1-31. So in your opinion is Gen 1:1-2 part of the first day?

 

[Peairtach]

In the aforementioned radio presentation Dr H Wayne House points out that everything that isn't God was created by Him, and that Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis 2.

I have always surmised that as the Son was with the Father from before the foundation of the world, angels were probably created prior to this universe. Dr Donald Gray Barnhouse said If I recall correctly that he thought the reason the world as we know it wasn't perfect, geologically speaking, was because of the battle that ensued when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. Thus the resultant chaos.

That's the "traditional" Gap Theory, as per the Schofield Bible and others. I don't see any evidence that a former creation was brought to chaos by the fall of Satan. Why would that be the case?

We're speculating at the edge of revelation, but I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then. Christ was the answer to that, and that involved the Earth.

We're speculating at the edge of revelation, but I tend to think that heavenly and earthly time are co-ordinate, because of the ascension and session of Christ. Prior to AD 33 or possibly AD 30, Christ's human nature was not present there. Since then it has been. Thus to speak of the creation of God's Heaven,the creation of the angels, and the fall of the angels happening prior to the Six Days, rather than somehow being fitted in during them, when they are not even mentioned, makes sense.


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[earl40]

Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.

Good point. I think the WCF included Gen 1:1-2 within the first day.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then.

So you believe there was creation prior to the "beginning" in Genesis 1:1?

 

[Peairtach]

I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then.

So you believe there was creation prior to the "beginning" in Genesis 1:1?

No. But the beginning was prior to the filling and forming of the Earth and visible cosmos on the Six Days.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding............................When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4 and 7)

It looks like the angels were already created when God started His work of forming and filling the Earth, and the good angels rejoiced in God's wonderful work, no doubt particularly the pinnacle of His creation, Man.

 

[earl40]

I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then.

So you believe there was creation prior to the "beginning" in Genesis 1:1?

No. But the beginning was prior to the filling and forming of the Earth and visible cosmos on the Six Days.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding............................When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4 and 7)

It looks like the angels were already created when God started His work of forming and filling the Earth, and the good angels rejoiced in God's wonderful work, no doubt particularly the pinnacle of His creation, Man.

Great references Richard. Do we need to change our profile now with an exception?

WCF

Chapter IV
Of Creation

I. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,[1] for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness,[2] in the beginning, to create, or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days; and all very good.[3]

 

[Peairtach]

This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.

The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.

Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.

The divines may have been referring to all things visible and invisible in the natural world, and all such things covered by the creation week (?) The section says nothing to the question of whether or not e.g. God's Heaven was created on any of the Six Days.

 

[earl40]

This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.

The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.

Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.

The divines may have been referring to all things visible and invisible in the natural world, and all such things covered by the creation week (?) The section says nothing to the question of whether or not e.g. God's Heaven was created on any of the Six Days.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Brothers:

By "accounted for," I mean simply we are not told when the angels were created so we can have no way of knowing. I, of course, do not subscribe to any sort of Scofieldian gap theory, obviously.

As for specific questions: I would understand Genesis 1:1-2 to be describing that primordial creation, the organization of which the following verses describe. I do see that as part of the first day. But we have no clue as to to when the angelic beings were made. None. It is apparently not the interest of Moses in the divinely-inspired narrative. As for the angels needing "a place," I agree that they are finite but I do not agree that they are in any sense extended in space: they are incorporeal, spirits who do not have a body, and thus take up no space.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Fogetaboutit]

Thanks for the clarification, maybe I just don't understand but how can angels not be limited by "space" without being omniscient? I understand that they are not physical but how can they exist outside of space? Wouldn't that mean that they are part of God?

 

[Fogetaboutit]

This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.

The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.

Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.

The divines may have been referring to all things visible and invisible in the natural world, and all such things covered by the creation week (?) The section says nothing to the question of whether or not e.g. God's Heaven was created on any of the Six Days.

What is God's heaven? Does God need a place to dwell in? How can any Heaven contain an infinite God? From my understanding all Heaven(s) were created in the creation week, I never heard of anything being eternal other than God.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Etienne:

Perhaps you mean "omnipresent."

Something that is not physical, that is to say, spiritual, is not extended in space. To be extended in space requires physicality. This is not to say that angels are by any means omnipresent. Only God is.

Some have said that angels have locations, as finite entities, but no extension, as spiritual entities. Thus the answer to the supposed scholastic question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" might be supposed to be "an infinite number." This is the kind of water that we're treading in here.

Peace,
Alan

 

[earl40]

As for the angels needing "a place," I agree that they are finite but I do not agree that they are in any sense extended in space: they are incorporeal, spirits who do not have a body, and thus take up no space.

Peace,
Alan

If I read of angels and demons in scripture it sure does "appear" the are in particular locations time and time again. I do not think, I may be wrong, but I see no warrant to think the Holy Spirit is using a type of anthropomorphism when describing angels or spirits in scripture.

 

[Fogetaboutit]

Etienne:

Perhaps you mean "omnipresent."

Something that is not physical, that is to say, spiritual, is not extended in space. To be extended in space requires physicality. This is not to say that iangels are by any means omnipresent. Only God is.

Some have said that angels have locations, as finite entities, but no extension, as spiritual entities. Thus the answer to the supposed scholastic question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" might be supposed to be "an infinite number." This is the kind of water that we're treading in here.

Peace,
Alan

Yes I meant omnipresent thanks,

Hmm, I'm not sure I fully understand but I kind of see what you mean. So to come back to the original question would you also say that this principle also applies to hell? (assuming that the lake of fire and hell are not the same thing since physical bodies will exist in the lake of fire)

 

[earl40]

So to come back to the original question would you also say that this principle also applies to hell? (assuming that the lake of fire and hell are not the same thing since physical bodies will exist in the lake of fire)

Now this may be a good point in that resurrected physical people will be in the same place as satan and his minions one day.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Do we know the precise nature of the place of the damned now? No, any more than we know the precise nature of the place of the blessed, other than to say that they are "with Christ."

That's quite different from the new heavens and new earth. And the lake of fire, into which the devil, his angels and all in league with them are finally cast.

And Earl, I clarified what I said about angels, as spirits, not being extended in space: that does not mean that they have no location, as finite, (I would say that they do have location) but since not extended in space, one might posit that an infinite number might occupy the same location. If this is all seems abstruse and worthlessly speculative, I did not raise the questions. I'm only trying to shed a little light on dealing with these sort of questions, which the text of Genesis (or anything else in the Bible) does not even purport to answer.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Peairtach]

Alan

Some have said that angels have locations, as finite entities, but no extension, as spiritual entities. Thus the answer to the supposed scholastic question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" might be supposed to be "an infinite number." This is the kind of water that we're treading in here.

This tale occured to me this morning as I was thinking about this thread.

Etienne

What is God's heaven? Does God need a place to dwell in? How can any Heaven contain an infinite God? From my understanding all Heaven(s) were created in the creation week, I never heard of anything being eternal other than God.

It is the "third heaven" spoken of by the Apostle in II Corinthians 12, the place which does not contain God but where God's glory is particularly revealed, and where Christ is and the departed saints.

The word "heaven" is also used of the sky and outer space, hence "third heaven".

Also see the Book of Revelation, etc.

 

[OttoNeubauer]

That's an interesting theory, but I can't quite buy it. What do you do with Genesis 1:31, where God seems to be looking back at all six days ("all that he had made") and declares it all "very good"?

I would understand that to be a statement that the creation of everything, including Satan, was "very good" in the sense that the resulting history of the world maximizes God's glory through Christ.

Desiring God explains it better than I can: "God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds." (link)

With that said, I understand Genesis 1 to be a set of theological truths expressed in figurative language, based on the fact that it describes evening and morning before the sun is created. It makes more sense to me to interpret the whole chapter as figurative, rather than see it as bouncing back and forth between literal and figurative. So when I suggest hell was created on the second day, I'm not making any assertion about a chronological sequence.

 

[Peairtach]

That's an interesting theory, but I can't quite buy it. What do you do with Genesis 1:31, where God seems to be looking back at all six days ("all that he had made") and declares it all "very good"?

I would understand that to be a statement that the creation of everything, including Satan, was "very good" in the sense that the resulting history of the world maximizes God's glory through Christ.

The creation of Satan was very good, because he was created without sin just like Man.

Desiring God explains it better than I can: "God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds." (link)

Profound thought; thanks for that.

ith that said, I understand Genesis 1 to be a set of theological truths expressed in figurative language, based on the fact that it describes evening and morning before the sun is created. It makes more sense to me to interpret the whole chapter as figurative, rather than see it as bouncing back and forth between literal and figurative. So when I suggest hell was created on the second day, I'm not making any assertion about a chronological sequence.

Since God creates night and day on Day One, I don't know how the days can be metaphors unless God is creating metaphors.



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[earl40]

And Earl, I clarified what I said about angels, as spirits, not being extended in space: that does not mean that they have no location, as finite, (I would say that they do have location) but since not extended in space, one might posit that an infinite number might occupy the same location. If this is all seems abstruse and worthlessly speculative, I did not raise the questions. I'm only trying to shed a little light on dealing with these sort of questions, which the text of Genesis (or anything else in the Bible) does not even purport to answer.

Peace,
Alan

I guess I simply can not understand how a spirit can be in a location without being extended in space. I guess is am simply to "dense".

 

[ThyWord IsTruth]

Interesting topic. Some thoughts:

Is not God's wrath and justice glorified with the eternal damnation of those whose abode will be in the lake of fire? It is not only God's objects of grace and love that glorify God.

I think wether you are Supralapsarian or Infralapsarian will have a lot to do with how you may view the timeframe of the creation of hell or the lake of fire.

As far as the heavens go, there are three spoken of in scripture. When Paul says he knew a man who was caught up to the third heaven he is referring to the Heaven of heavens, the highest heaven where Christ is seated on the throne. The first heaven being our immediate atmosphere, the second our galaxy and the third the presence of Christ (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord).

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Earl:

Sure you can understand it. How can an immaterial being, which is what a spirit is--a being not possessing the property of matter--be extended in space? Something extended in space has matter and an immaterial being is not composed of matter and thus is not extended in space.

Now angels are finite spiritual beings, so they may be spoken of as having a location, but in that location, not being extended in space. God is an infinite spiritual being: He, too, is not extended in space (as a spiritual being), but is everywhere present.That is incomprehensible with respect to God (as He is in all His essence). We can grasp these concepts but they are a challenge because we tend to think of beings, and we know other beings, in terms of materiality and physicality.

So we can be tempted to attribute that which pertains to material beings to immaterial beings, but we may not, certainly we may not with respect to God. Nor may we attribute such properties of physicality (extension in space) to angels. If you can get "not being extended in space" with respect to God, (and we certainly teach that since He does not have a body), you can certainly get it with respect to lesser beings. Don't sell yourself short, Earl!

Peace,
Alan

 

[ThyWord IsTruth]

Earl:

Sure you can understand it. How can an immaterial being, which is what a spirit is--a being not possessing the property of matter--be extended in space? Something extended in space has matter and an immaterial being is not composed of matter and thus is not extended in space.

Now angels are finite spiritual beings, so they may be spoken of as having a location, but in that location, not being extended in space. God is an infinite spiritual being: He, too, is not extended in space (as a spiritual being), but is everywhere present.That is incomprehensible with respect to God (as He is in all His essence). We can grasp these concepts but they are a challenge because we tend to think of beings, and we know other beings, in terms of materiality and physicality.

So we can be tempted to attribute that which pertains to material beings to immaterial beings, but we may not, certainly we may not with respect to God. Nor may we attribute such properties of physicality (extension in space) to angels. If you can get "not being extended in space" with respect to God, (and we certainly teach that since He does not have a body), you can certainly get it with respect to lesser beings. Don't sell yourself short, Earl!

Peace,
Alan

Good explanation Alan. One more point to add. All the elect that have died and are with Christ are absent from their bodies thus lacking matter. Souls are immaterial.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Jason:

Quite right: both the blessed dead and the cursed dead in the intermediate state, where they presently are, have their existence in a immaterial mode, being souls without bodies.

In the final state, as I noted above, the elect will have bodily existence once again in a new heavens and new earth; the reprobate will exist bodily in the lake of fire. And as you noted from Romans 9, the former will magnify the love and grace of God and the latter the wrath and justice of God.

Ultimately, in all things, God will be perfectly glorified. That is a thought of the highest comfort and sweetness.

Peace,
Alan

 

[ThyWord IsTruth]

Ultimately, in all things, God will be perfectly glorified. That is a thought of the highest comfort and sweetness.

Peace,
Alan

Amen brother. Very sweet and of the highest comfort indeed! Maran-atha and Marana-tha!

 

[earl40]

Earl:

Sure you can understand it. How can an immaterial being, which is what a spirit is--a being not possessing the property of matter--be extended in space? Something extended in space has matter and an immaterial being is not composed of matter and thus is not extended in space.

Now angels are finite spiritual beings, so they may be spoken of as having a location, but in that location, not being extended in space. God is an infinite spiritual being: He, too, is not extended in space (as a spiritual being), but is everywhere present.That is incomprehensible with respect to God (as He is in all His essence). We can grasp these concepts but they are a challenge because we tend to think of beings, and we know other beings, in terms of materiality and physicality.

So we can be tempted to attribute that which pertains to material beings to immaterial beings, but we may not, certainly we may not with respect to God. Nor may we attribute such properties of physicality (extension in space) to angels. If you can get "not being extended in space" with respect to God, (and we certainly teach that since He does not have a body), you can certainly get it with respect to lesser beings. Don't sell yourself short, Earl!

Peace,
Alan

Good explanation though I am not sure we can say just because an angel is non material we can be dogmatic in stating they have no extension in space. Take the other half of the equation on what makes up the entire universe. Of course I am speaking of energy. Does sunlight take up space?

All I am trying to covey is that In my most humble opinion God created everything which includes what we "can see" (material) and "not see" (angels) per the WCF, which I believe the divines had in mind when they wrote such.

Here is a question that may be related. Is there such thing as pure space that contains nothing? I tend to lie on the side that there is no such thing as a space that contains no thing, In other words, a vacuum that is totally devoid of everything. General relativity states that matter/energy is equivalent to space/time. Take away all matter/energy and you have no space/time. So in summation I believe angels are in space and time as God is the only being outside such. Angels are spirits of pure energy and man is both matter (body) and energy (spirit or soul). This all assumes IF the angels were created "in the beginning" which I think the WCF had in mind.

 

[THE W]

To answer the original question, the bible doesn't say, so we don't know.

To answer the question within the question, all of what the LORD created was good because it was in accordance with His will.

Anything that complies with the LORD's will is good and anything that violates the LORD's will is evil and since everything that was created was created by the LORD according to His will, ALL of it was good.

 

[earl40]

To answer the original question, the bible doesn't say, so we don't know.

To answer the question within the question, all of what the LORD created was good because it was in accordance with His will.

Anything that complies with the LORD's will is good and anything that violates the LORD's will is evil and since everything that was created was created by the LORD according to His will, ALL of it was good.

I will say the bible may say when angels were created. If the WCF is saying "things not seen" were created in the first 6 days then they saw when at least satan was created. I will agree that satan was created good and fell. If this is correct the "serpent of old" fell sometime before Adam which I believe all would also agree with. Now the point I am trying to make is that IF satan was created in the 1st six days (I am) he is not really that "old" if the earth is only 6-10,000 years old. In other words, the matter and energy of the universe may be billions of years old (albeit subjective opinion) and the days in Genesis may not be a literal 24 hour day.

 

[Peairtach]

Earl

Good explanation though I am not sure we can say just because an angel is non material we can be dogmatic in stating they have no extension in space. Take the other half of the equation on what makes up the entire universe. Of course I am speaking of energy. Does sunlight take up space?

Our souls are not extended in space, yet are located in our bodies.

Clearly, from the Scriptures, angels are capable of making themselves visible and interacting with the material world. These things are beyond our understanding.

If the WCF is saying "things not seen" were created in the first 6 days then they saw when at least satan was created. I will agree that satan was created good and fell. If this is correct the "serpent of old" fell sometime before Adam which I believe all would also agree with. Now the point I am trying to make is that IF satan was created in the 1st six days (I am) he is not really that "old" if the earth is only 6-10,000 years old. In other words, the matter and energy of the universe may be billions of years old (albeit subjective opinion) and the days in Genesis may not be a literal 24 hour day.

If it's not clearly revealed in Scripture when all the angels (including the angel that would become Satan, and those that would become his minions) and the Heaven of Heavens were created, would the divines presume to say that they were created on the Six Days of Creation?