What the difference between denominations?

[Average Joey]

I have been born again for over three years and have studied much.However something simple that I never really looked into was the difference between denominations.What makes them a seperate denomination from the other?Now I don`t mean differences between Calvinists and Armenians.That I know already.I have noticed that many Baptists,Presbyterians,etc. are Calvinists anyway.Not much for me to disagree with.Which I guess is why I never learned the differences between denominations.My question basically is,how come two people who are calvinists still go to different denomination churches?What are the basic differences in the denominations?


Title edited by PuritanSailor

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by puritansailor]

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by Average Joey
I have been born again for over three years and have studied much.However something simple that I never really looked into was the difference between denominations.What makes them a seperate denomination from the other?Now I don`t mean differences between Calvinists and Armenians.That I know already.I have noticed that many Baptists,Presbyterians,etc. are Calvinists anyway.Not much for me to disagree with.Which I guess is why I never learned the differences between denominations.My question basically is,how come two people who are calvinists still go to different denomination churches?What are the basic differences in the denominations?

Uhm, you are going to get a different answer from just about everyone here. Long story short, the sinfulness of man, I believe, is the reason for all of the denominations. That's a wee bit trite, but true.

The differences are over a myriad of issues: sacraments (nature and efficacy), polity, work of the Holy Spirit, work of Jesus, the millennium, Scripture, etc., etc. You can pretty much name an issue, and you will quickley see the differences between the camps.

For beginner's check out: "Machen's Warrior Children"

[Edited on 31-12-2004 by openairboy]

[Edited on 31-12-2004 by openairboy]

 

[Average Joey]

I mean specifically what are the big differences between denominations?What made people decide to make other denominations?Was it something small?What makes a person a Baptist,Methodist,Presbyterian,etc.?

Let me add that on this board I have noticed Reformed Baptists,Reformed Presbyterians,etc. and they all agree most of the time.What still makes them different from each other?

[Edited on 12-31-2004 by Average Joey]

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by Average Joey
I mean specifically what are the big differences between denominations?What made people decide to make other denominations?Was it something small?What makes a person a Baptist,Methodist,Presbyterian,etc.?

Let me add that on this board I have noticed Reformed Baptists,Reformed Presbyterians,etc. and they all agree most of the time.What still makes them different from each other?

[Edited on 12-31-2004 by Average Joey]

Sacraments, Polity, work of the Holy Spirit, etc, that's what makes them different from one another and is fairly specific. The most obvious between Calvinistic Baptists and Presbyterians is baptism (both mode and recipients). Specifics would take a lot of time and require a reading of several systematic theologies, i.e. differentiating between consubstantiation, transubstantiation, real presence, Bishops, Cardinals, Elders, sprinkling, immersion, speaking in tongues, Confessions, holiness, sanctification, justification, anthropology, ecclesiology, procession, covenants, dispensations, liturgy, contemporary, traditional, sacerdotal, evangelical, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Maybe you can tease out some of the specifics, b/c you said, "They agree most of the time". O.k., now what do you see them differing in? Well, there you go.


openairboy

 

[Average Joey]

Originally posted by openairboy

Originally posted by Average Joey
I mean specifically what are the big differences between denominations?What made people decide to make other denominations?Was it something small?What makes a person a Baptist,Methodist,Presbyterian,etc.?

Let me add that on this board I have noticed Reformed Baptists,Reformed Presbyterians,etc. and they all agree most of the time.What still makes them different from each other?

[Edited on 12-31-2004 by Average Joey]

Sacraments, Polity, work of the Holy Spirit, etc, that's what makes them different from one another and is fairly specific. The most obvious between Calvinistic Baptists and Presbyterians is baptism (both mode and recipients). Specifics would take a lot of time and require a reading of several systematic theologies, i.e. differentiating between consubstantiation, transubstantiation, real presence, Bishops, Cardinals, Elders, sprinkling, immersion, speaking in tongues, Confessions, holiness, sanctification, justification, anthropology, ecclesiology, procession, covenants, dispensations, liturgy, contemporary, traditional, sacerdotal, evangelical, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Maybe you can tease out some of the specifics, b/c you said, "They agree most of the time". O.k., now what do you see them differing in? Well, there you go.


openairboy

I am guessing that with reformers there is now no point to call ourselves by denomination except by being reformers.

Edit: I am guessing you work overnight too or just like staying up at night.

[Edited on 12-31-2004 by Average Joey]

 

[Ivan]

Polity and Baptism are the two differences I see on this board between those of us that attend churches of different denominations. Actually, I think Presbyterian's polity is better than Baptist. I have attended MANY Baptist business meetings. HEW BOY!! Trouble with a capital "T"!! Most of the time they run smoothly and are boring. I always miffed members when I was a pastor by making them follow the Robert's Rules of Order. That did not make me popular. However, sometimes the meeting were pure evil. I have seen some horrible things happen, but maybe Presbyterians have seen that happen too, I don't know.

It's the Baptism thing that has me in the Baptist camp at this point, but I haven't really studied the issue that deeply.

 

[Craig]

Don't forget, many denoms have cultural backgrounds that came into the U.S. from overseas....some developed in their home country and came to the U.S. with immigrants.

Other denoms form from genuine Christian dissent from liberalism.

Many form from silly breaks over nominal issues...not to be prejudiced, but many of these seem to occur most often in non-reformed churches.

 

[Robin]

Dear Joe,

Of course this issue is huge....the other posts are spot-on about all denominations are about our sinfulness. Period.
Christ has ONE people; Faith; Baptism; Gospel...etc....

So please, in all of the mess, remember ONE thing.

What is the Gospel and Where is the Gospel? That is ground zero to hang-on to. Out of all the sin....that is the only way we can trace the thread of Christ's providence in building His Church.

This can also be understood by holding on to the doctrine of Justification - as Paul teaches. Again, learn it well, hold-on to it --- die for it....then proceed to learn Church history and wade through man's faithful AND faithless understanding of the Gospel.

Amazingly....though our (Christians) very sin nature hates God and continually veers off the Gospel path, throughout history, the Gospel and the doctrine of Justification travel through these sins, indicating the true "Reformed". This can be seen in Church history over and over again. There is really only ONE battle - for the Gospel. Satan is most busy with either confusing it or stopping it.

There are really only two religions in the world. Just two - one is the Law: what man does or must do - the other is the Gospel-what God has done. That's IT. The religions of Law always change. The true religion of the Gospel never changes.

Of course, I don't mean to over simplify. We must remember the catagories --- and not forget the "simplicity" of The Faith.

Remember: the Law and the Gospel. Don't confuse them; don't swap the order of them --- and with all your heart, strength and mind, hold-on to the Gospel.

Robin

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by Robin
Remember: the Law and the Gospel.

Don't forget hermeneutics being an issue.

openairboy

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Originally posted by Average Joey
I mean specifically what are the big differences between denominations?What made people decide to make other denominations?Was it something small?What makes a person a Baptist,Methodist,Presbyterian,etc.?

Let me add that on this board I have noticed Reformed Baptists,Reformed Presbyterians,etc. and they all agree most of the time.What still makes them different from each other?

[Edited on 12-31-2004 by Average Joey]

Let me start off by saying that I do not believe that denominationalism is sin or necessarily caused by demons or sin. There are some good reasons for the differences.

As in the differences between Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian, the orginaztion of administration is done differently. You can see congregationalism in the scriptures as portrayed by the forming of local congregations. You can picture the Presbyterian structure if you conclude that the Counsel of Jerusalem was made up of Pastors, Elders, and laymen alike, with the intention of bringing into conformity all the local churches. I like the Presbyterian view. In the Methodist view you have church Polity coming from above in a Chain of Command. Hierarchy is the rule here. The top dog or dogs make the decisions and it doesn't matter what the local congregation wants. If they send a Pastor you don't like as a congregation, to bad.

Of course I have oversimplified the polity issue but that is a main difference. Some would argue that you see all these forms of polity in the scripture.

There are also other distinctives that come into play. Style of worship. Regulative Principle or Contemporay. Praise Songs, Hymns, or Exclusive Psalmody are part of this issue. This is divided by sin I believe.

Eschatology is a big divider. This isssue effects the mission and purpose of a church most of the time. This has many different reasons for division. Sin plays a big part here also. We do see throught a glass darkly but the Dispensationalist's are crazy.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out the Polity thing and say that I don't believe this issue is sin.

 

[Ranger]

Baptists are a confused people. I can say this since I am one. Since our denomination has decided to stray from creeds and meaningful confessions, they have opened the flood gates of heresy.

Under Baptist church polity, the congregation being led by the Holy Spirit and under the guidance of a chosen pastor, makes all of the decisions for the direction of the church. Since the congregation determines the direction of each individual church apart from any creeds or confessions, the differences in Baptist churches are overwhelming.

For instance, the fictional Calvary Baptist Church holds to a strict form of classical dispensationalism, pre-tribulational rapture, Arminianism, etc. They choose ministers and deacons who affirm their beliefs.

The fictional Shiloh Baptist Church holds to a much different hermeneutic. They are covenantal, amillennial, Calvinistic, etc. They likewise choose ministers and deacons who affirm their beliefs.

The only thing that binds the two churches is their belief in congregational polity and believer's baptism, but their understanding of baptism is completely different. The Arminian church views it as an act of obedience for believers that helps prove their salvation, whereas the second church looks at it as their spiritual circumcision following their new birth in Christ. Big differences. Still, they are both Baptist.

The problem with the modern Southern Baptist church is that they do not hold to any true confession or creed. Southern Baptists have a confession called the Baptist Faith and Message, but do not hold that pastors, deacons or anyone actually hold to it apart from seminary professors and missionaries. Since there is no accountability, just about anything can go in a Baptist church as long as they stick to believer's Baptism. In essence, your typical pentecostal church could technically become a member of the Southern Baptist convention if they decided to give to the cooperative program and affirm believer's baptism (which they already do).

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by Ranger]

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Ranger,
Mind you that the group of Baptist's I am closest to hold to the 1689 Confession just like the Presbyterian's try and hold to the WCF. Why do you call the churches you named fictional?

Not all Presbyterian's hold to the WCF. The Cumberland branch is arminian. Others hold to it more loosely than others.

P.S. Founders have to subscribe to one of 4 confessions. http://www.founders.org/misc/chlist.html

So there is some stability here. The ARBCA holds to the 1689.

[Edited on 1-3-2005 by puritancovenanter]

 

[Ranger]

I was just giving two examples of what different Baptist churches could believe so I gave them fictional names. I personally can't wait to get to a church that affirms the 1689 confession of faith in that same way, but currently am unable.

The fact of the matter though, is that 99% of Baptist churches in America think differently than those of us who are Reformed.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I feel your pain. Believe me.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by openairboy

Originally posted by Robin
Remember: the Law and the Gospel.

Don't forget hermeneutics being an issue.

openairboy

What, you mean like the hermeneutical differences between the Reformed and Lutherans?

 

[nicnap]

Average Joey,
There are Armenian Baptists and there are Arminian Baptists. One is a group of people from Armenia and one is a theological group. To which do you refer?

Sorry, I couldn't resist...btw this is in response to your first post.

 

[govols]

I thought it was the type and amount of food at pot luck lunches. Those Baptist sure can cook!

 

[Robin]

Seriously though, guys.....

A L L denominational-ISM IS a result of S I N. Period.
Splits are because one side was either more or less Biblically accurate. Scripture is not at fault. We are. Satan is the instigator as he incites our weakness to sin - much of the time - we need none of his help. And sometimes, there are "doctrines of demons" in denominations....though I tend to think they manifest in the way the Gospel is understood or misunderstood - not some goofy, emotional expression.

Christ has O N E Church; one baptism; one body;one Spirit; one Faith; one Truth....One, One, One!!

We see O N E Church in Holy Scripture...from Genesis to Revelation....there is one people of God.

What a horrid example to the unbeliever....may we all be mindful of this. So let us strive towards unity in the essentials of the One True Church: rightly Preaching the Word; rightly administering the sacraments; rightly administering church discipline. Getting the Gospel right and getting it out.



Robin

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by Robin What a horrid example to the unbeliever....may we all be mindful of this. So let us strive towards unity in the essentials of the One True Church: rightly Preaching the Word; rightly administering the sacraments; rightly administering church discipline. Getting the Gospel right and getting it out. Robin

 

[Ranger]

I think most of us on this board could agree on Preaching the Word, we would have trouble in both the sacraments and church discipline though. And, let's not begin to rediscuss baptism. I wish we could come together, and believe that is the call of the Spirit, it's just don't see how it could ever happen.