What will Christ's Return be like?

[Cedarbay]

Tyler, I see your point—yet it remains that Christ's appearing will differ in the eyes that see Him according to the situation on the earth at that time.

You can start another thread on eschatological views if you wish (as it's your idea to do so), and I would likely join in. I think it would be interesting.

Hello. Have you heard of, "Called To Watch For Christ's Return", written by Martyn McGeown, a pastor of one of the sister churches of the PRC, based in Limerick, Ireland?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Anne,

Thank you for the heads-up on Rev. McGeown's book! I've looked through the beginning of it online, and I'll likely get it when a little $ rolls in.

I may even contact him in Limerick.

 

[Cedarbay]

Hello Anne,

Thank you for the heads-up on Rev. McGeown's book! I've looked through the beginning of it online, and I'll likely get it when a little $ rolls in.

I may even contact him in Limerick.

Wonderful. I have gotten to know, Rev. Angus Stewart, also a pastor of a sister church of the PRC, in Ballymena, and have enjoyed the online services they offer on Lord's Day.

http://www.cprf.co.uk/

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Well, Tyler, it appears you’re not going to start another thread on “the various systems of eschatology”, as you suggested I do. I won’t at this point as it would be obligatory for me to respond in detail to all contenders and my pastoral duties don’t leave me much time for that.

I truly have made no “gross misrepresentation” of the postmil view as you claimed, neither a “ridiculous caricature”, nor have you substantiated such allegations – mere claims without substance.

As I said earlier, it remains that Christ's second appearing will differ in the eyes that see Him according to the situation on the earth at that time, to wit: to the premil He will be thought to come invisibly to rapture His church before the Tribulation (though some have Him coming mid- and others post-trib), then visibly to destroy the antichrist, then to reign in earthly Jerusalem 1,000 literal years, whereon at the conclusion of which a world-wide rebellion will occur and He will quell it and then the final judgment (I oversimplify the premil schema).

According to the postmil the world will, through the preaching of the Gospel by the faithful, eventually become a golden era of Christianized people (some perhaps not saved but living in accord with “Biblical standards”), then at the end of this symbolic “millennial” period a brief rebellion and apostasy will occur which the Lord upon His return will crush, and with pleasure will look upon the mostly godly world His people have labored to develop. After which the resurrection and judgment.

With the amil, although the elect are being gathered unto Christ, and the genuine church is being purified by affliction throughout the symbolic millennial – 1,000 year – period which is the entire NT church age, the unbelieving world continues in fierce and violent opposition to God’s people, increasing greatly as the end of the end times approaches.

2 Tim 3:12, 13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.​

At the battle of Armageddon, which is the final and global assault of the wicked against the church, under the leadership of the antichrist who is empowered by the devil, when it appears that all is lost and the people of God overcome (Rev 11:7-13), the Son of God will return, first for the saints with great love and rejoicing to be united with His purified bride, and second with such fury against the wicked – a day “that shall burn as an oven” (Mal 4:1) – that shall destroy them in the intense heat of His wrath, so that they cry out “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev 6:16).

Even so, as I have stated, “Christ's second appearing will differ in the eyes that see Him” according to their end-time view. What Christ's return will be like in fact shall be according to the Biblical present millennium / amil view, depending on whether He is looked at in terror by the wicked or in love and rejoicing by the godly. The premil and postmil scenarios of His return are fictitious.

 

[Dachaser]

Hello David,

It is an interesting thing you bring up about the “historical church”, that it “has never said that the scriptures validate only one eschatology viewpoint”. That was because they disagreed on the matter. You go on, “but that the pre/Post/A mils views are all acceptable to hold”, which no historical church ever said. You go further, “as there is none that will be seen as the only right one”. This is in your mind, not theirs. They all had their views, which today often seem antiquated due to the end being so very far away.

The Westminster Confession of Faith 1.9 (the 1689 agreeing), takes this view of the meaning of Scripture:

The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.​

So the matter is that the doctrine has not yet been discerned to where there is a general consensus. I have often maintained that eschatology is the one area of doctrine that is still in development. With regard to certain aspects of the end times Stuart Olyott in his, Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained, thinks likewise:

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)​

Geerhardus Vos, although speaking of discerning the Antichrist, enunciated a principle applicable at this point,

“[It] belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience.” (The Pauline Eschatology, p. 133)​

O.T. Allis in his book, Prophecy and the Church, expressed the same sentiment:

“The usual view on this subject [‘the intelligibility of prophecy’] has been that prophecy is not intended to be fully understood before its fulfilment, that it is only when God ‘establishes the word of his servants and fulfills the counsel of his messengers,’ that the meaning and import of their words become fully manifest.” (p 25)​

So what is happening today is the laboring in the word and in doctrine, and the keen observing to see if there are any close-to-the-very-end-time prophecies that have come to pass, so we may get a somewhat general take on where we are in the scheme of prophetic fulfillment.

I labor to show the amil is the only viable contender on the field. All the others may be shown disqualified in the light of God’s word. They none of them have application to all the various churches from John's time in around 95 AD, to the Waldenses in 1000 or so AD, to the Reformation churches in the 1500-1600s, and to us in 2017. Only the amil / present millennium view can do that. It is Christ's vision for all the churches of the New Testament age.

The eschatology of the scriptures though cannot be defined as neatly as you are arguing for here, as the same scriptures have been used by all 3 main positions at times, and there is a real tension between the Kingdom here present, but yet not here in its fullest as of yet.
And the Church has always seemed to indicate that what was the primary position that must be held and maintained is there there is a future Second Coming of Christ, but we can agree to disagree on exacting timing and what that looks like in the end when it will get all worked out.

 

[Dachaser]

Well, Tyler, it appears you’re not going to start another thread on “the various systems of eschatology”, as you suggested I do. I won’t at this point as it would be obligatory for me to respond in detail to all contenders and my pastoral duties don’t leave me much time for that.

I truly have made no “gross misrepresentation” of the postmil view as you claimed, neither a “ridiculous caricature”, nor have you substantiated such allegations – mere claims without substance.

As I said earlier, it remains that Christ's second appearing will differ in the eyes that see Him according to the situation on the earth at that time, to wit: to the premil He will be thought to come invisibly to rapture His church before the Tribulation (though some have Him coming mid- and others post-trib), then visibly to destroy the antichrist, then to reign in earthly Jerusalem 1,000 literal years, whereon at the conclusion of which a world-wide rebellion will occur and He will quell it and then the final judgment (I oversimplify the premil schema).

According to the postmil the world will, through the preaching of the Gospel by the faithful, eventually become a golden era of Christianized people (some perhaps not saved but living in accord with “Biblical standards”), then at the end of this symbolic “millennial” period a brief rebellion and apostasy will occur which the Lord upon His return will crush, and with pleasure will look upon the mostly godly world His people have labored to develop. After which the resurrection and judgment.

With the amil, although the elect are being gathered unto Christ, and the genuine church is being purified by affliction throughout the symbolic millennial – 1,000 year – period which is the entire NT church age, the unbelieving world continues in fierce and violent opposition to God’s people, increasing greatly as the end of the end times approaches.

2 Tim 3:12, 13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.​

At the battle of Armageddon, which is the final and global assault of the wicked against the church, under the leadership of the antichrist who is empowered by the devil, when it appears that all is lost and the people of God overcome (Rev 11:7-13), the Son of God will return, first for the saints with great love and rejoicing to be united with His purified bride, and second with such fury against the wicked – a day “that shall burn as an oven” (Mal 4:1) – that shall destroy them in the intense heat of His wrath, so that they cry out “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev 6:16).

Even so, as I have stated, “Christ's second appearing will differ in the eyes that see Him” according to their end-time view. What Christ's return will be like in fact shall be according to the Biblical present millennium / amil view, depending on whether He is looked at in terror by the wicked or in love and rejoicing by the godly. The premil and postmil scenarios of His return are fictitious.

The preMil position actually does justice though to the idea of there being the first resurrection of the saints to glorification, and the second resurrection of the lost to eternal shame.
It also allows for the Messianic Age to be actually intact here upon the earth, as that time all of the major prophets foresaw and foretold would be paradise restored under the messiah King here ruling.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

“The preMil position actually does justice…” &etc. Spoken like a good dispensationalist, David.

“The eschatology of the scriptures though cannot be defined as neatly as you are arguing for here…” &etc. Spoken like a good pan-millennialist (it will all pan out in the end).

I notice, David – da chaser of posts – you have very little recourse to Scripture backing up what you say, giving instead poorly-informed opinion. Slow down, please. Be quick to hear, slow to speak.

 

[ChananBachiyr]

Daniel, thanks for your collection of Scriptures. Here is an article that may be of interest to you, from in CT June 1, 2003, which was adapted from Anthony Hoekema's classic work, The Bible and the Future: Heaven: Not Just an Eternal Day Off (As if anticipating the question, Will life on the new earth be boring? the Bible points to much activity there).

Thank you very much!
I'll be reading this asap!

 

[Dachaser]

“The preMil position actually does justice…” &etc. Spoken like a good dispensationalist, David.

“The eschatology of the scriptures though cannot be defined as neatly as you are arguing for here…” &etc. Spoken like a good pan-millennialist (it will all pan out in the end).

I notice, David – da chaser of posts – you have very little recourse to Scripture backing up what you say, giving instead poorly-informed opinion. Slow down, please. Be quick to hear, slow to speak.

I am speaking as a historical premil, not as a Dispensational one.
And the rest of your posting was solid biblical advise.

 

[ChananBachiyr]

Is there some reason for the duplicate posts?
Strange...

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

"I am speaking as a historical premil, not as a Dispensational one."​

I stand corrected, David. Thanks for your graciousness.