What's the answer?

[Scott Shahan]

What comes first repentance or forgiveness? Where does the idea of universal forgiveness come from? How does repentance and forgiveness relate to one another, and can they be seperate from one another? Jesus' first words in public ministry were repent; why did He not say at first you are forgiven? How does this work, I am told to forgive 7 times 77, so just keep forgiving the unrepented sinner regaurdless if they do not repent? Do we just have to tolerate sinful behavior for the sake of forgiveness? Is this being a door mat? Does the christian have any rights? I think of Jesus being abused by other peoples sins, He did not stand up for Himself, He didn't exercise His "rights" He took in all the wrong doing of others. Is this what I am supposed to do? How do you all work this out in your lives? These are questions that I am wrestling with.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Repentance then justification.......

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is:
1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification,
8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Scott Shahan,

There are an awful lot of questions in your OP.

Scott answered your first question: repentance precedes forgivenes. Think of Acts 2 as an example - in Verse 37 they are cut to the heart (aware of their sin) and cry out in anguish. Peter tells them to repent and believe and they will be forgiven.

The Scriptures are also clear, however, that true repentance and belief go hand in hand with the ability to "see" that you need to repent and believe in something. Thus, since God initiates by regenerating through the power of the Word the forgiveness will follow but the repentance is not some sort of disposable event in the sequence. Yes God makes us repentant but we still repent and we still believe.

Christ never says you are just forgiven without ever repenting because He called for repentance and belief before forgiveness would be granted. You are not commanded to forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness 77 times. You forgive those who repent. Forgiveness of a brother who repents to you for a wrong is far from being a doormat. Again, he must repent of his sin. You do not just keep letting a thief beat you up and take your money and think to yourself: "Well I've forgiven him for that so he's forgiven." You may not hold anything against him in your heart but he's still guilty before God for his sin.

As to Christ not exercising His "right" that is only partly true. Let's just say justice was deferred. He did not judge people immediately for insulting, persecuting, and trying to kill the Son of God (eventually succeeding). That sin, however, was or will be judged. It was judged on the Cross in Christ. Those who repented in Acts 2 were those Christ interceded and died for. Their sin was judged in Him. Our sin was judged in Him but we still repent of it because repentance flows out of faith which is the instrument by which we procure the forgiveness for sins and righteousness of Christ. Those who never sought forgiveness for insulting Christ received the punishment it deserved (eternal torment) as will all those who reject the Son of God.

Hope this helps a little...

 

[BobVigneault]

What comes first repentance or forgiveness?

As already explained, the logical model (the actual timeframe is negligibly short) shows repentance coming before justification.

Where does the idea of universal forgiveness come from?

From the so-called universal verses. God so loved the world - Jesus died for all men - Through one man the many will be made righteous, and a sentimental rejection of the doctrine of limited or particular atonement.

How does repentance and forgiveness relate to one another, and can they be seperate from one another?

They relate in that they are both granted by God stemming from his grace and mercy. But you must think of repentance in terms of Kingdom. To repent is to turn from the kingdom of satan and the pattern of this fallen world to the Kingdom of life. Forgiveness is administered based on the atoning work of the messiah/mediator. So one is more of a kingdom element where as the other is mediatorial.

Jesus' first words in public ministry were repent; why did He not say at first you are forgiven?

John introduced the new covenant as prophesied in the OT. He proclaimed that the Kingdom of God was at hand and as I said before, repentance was the way of leaving the satanic and joining the Kingdom of God. Jesus instituted the new Kindgom with the beginning of his ministry and culminated with the crucifixion. Jesus called for repentance as a sign of turning from the one kingdom to the other. Forgiveness would come as a result of atonement and propitiation.

How does this work, I am told to forgive 7 times 77, so just keep forgiving the unrepented sinner regaurdless if they do not repent?

The context has changed here, you are not offering atonement, this is the conduct that befits the citizens of the kingdom of God. You misquoted Peter who asked, "21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "œLord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "œI do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. Matt 18:21-22

Peter was asking about his 'brother', a fellow Kingdom citizen. Jesus immediated goes on to teach about the character of the Kingdom.

Does the christian have any rights?

Yes and no. No, in that we were dead and all that we have now, we have in Christ. We are bond servants. We behave in a manner that befits the gospel of Christ.

Yes, in that we are royalty walking about in a parasitic kingdom. We have the right to breakdown strongholds of inconsistent worldviews. We are obligated to exhort, teach, correct, rebuke and call the world to Christ.

How do you all work this out in your lives?

You don't!
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10

Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!"” 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

The goal of the Christian life is not perfection but transformation. Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We continually put off the old and put on the new but as the above verse shows, the pivot point of transformation is 'to be renewed in the spirit of your minds'.

This means, if you forsake reading the scripture today and every day, if you forget to pray and listen quietly. If you forsake the fellowship of believers you have seriously hobbled the work of the Holy Spirit in changing you.

We pursue theological and doctrinal study in order to have a more intimate relationship with God. If this isn't the focus and goal of our learning we only acquire knowledge that puffs up. The Holy Spirit will take what we learn from the Word and make in the basis for our daily living. We will act out what we learn.

[Edited on 5-2-2006 by BobVigneault]

 

[CDM]

Originally posted by SemperFideles
Scott Shahan,

There are an awful lot of questions in your OP.

Scott answered your first question: repentance precedes forgivenes. Think of Acts 2 as an example - in Verse 37 they are cut to the heart (aware of their sin) and cry out in anguish. Peter tells them to repent and believe and they will be forgiven.

The Scriptures are also clear, however, that true repentance and belief go hand in hand with the ability to "see" that you need to repent and believe in something. Thus, since God initiates by regenerating through the power of the Word the forgiveness will follow but the repentance is not some sort of disposable event in the sequence. Yes God makes us repentant but we still repent and we still believe.

Christ never says you are just forgiven without ever repenting because He called for repentance and belief before forgiveness would be granted. You are not commanded to forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness 77 times. You forgive those who repent. Forgiveness of a brother who repents to you for a wrong is far from being a doormat. Again, he must repent of his sin. You do not just keep letting a thief beat you up and take your money and think to yourself: "Well I've forgiven him for that so he's forgiven." You may not hold anything against him in your heart but he's still guilty before God for his sin.

As to Christ not exercising His "right" that is only partly true. Let's just say justice was deferred. He did not judge people immediately for insulting, persecuting, and trying to kill the Son of God (eventually succeeding). That sin, however, was or will be judged. It was judged on the Cross in Christ. Those who repented in Acts 2 were those Christ interceded and died for. Their sin was judged in Him. Our sin was judged in Him but we still repent of it because repentance flows out of faith which is the instrument by which we procure the forgiveness for sins and righteousness of Christ. Those who never sought forgiveness for insulting Christ received the punishment it deserved (eternal torment) as will all those who reject the Son of God.

Hope this helps a little...

Originally posted by joshua
The keys is to always be ready to forgive. That being said, you cannot forgive someone of something that they fail to acknowledge as being a great rebellion against God. Their refusal to deal with it is unrepentance.

True forgiveness cannot and does not take place without reconciliation. It has already been said that the believer should be always ready to forgive.

You *can't* forgive an unrepentant sinner. If he/she doesn't ask you to forgive them (even though you stand at the ready to forgive) then true forgiveness hasn't taken place. This is not a sin on the believers part (if he is willing and able to forgive). But if the sinner wishes not forgiveness then he won't get it.

To illustrate as I don't want to be misunderstood:

Christian was just robbed at night by his neighbor. Christian knows this. Christian is upset about this but wants to forgive his thief neighbor (his willingness to forgive is good in God's sight). The thief is unrepentant, and does not seek forgiveness. Even though Christian wants to forgive the thief, actual forgiveness hasn't taken place. And cannot unless the thief seeks it. Christian is right before God even though the thief is not.

Now, given the same scenario, say the thief returns to Christian repentant, and asking for forgiveness. Christian, who is willing to forgive, then forgives the thief. NOW forgiveness has taken place. they are reconciled.

Note how Christian in both situations was standing ready to forgive. But only in the last one has actual forgiveness occurred. And, Christian was pleasing in God's sight even in a situation where true forgiveness had not taken place.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Thanks Bob for the answers to those questions I had, it has been a great help to me. This is defintely one of the cool things about this board, I can bring a question to you all, and am able to get the biblical answer that I needed. Thank you everyone, you are all a blessing.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Chris,

Thanks for sharing that illustration it makes alot of sense to me.

 

[bigheavyq]

what about those places where Jesus says to people that their sins are forgiven before He heals them? Their is no mention of repentance beforehand.

 

[BobVigneault]

Originally posted by bigheavyq
what about those places where Jesus says to people that their sins are forgiven before He heals them? Their is no mention of repentance beforehand.

The point of those narratives was not whether or not repentance preceded forgiveness, (and we should always be cautious about forming theology from the gospel narratives, ie, snake handling churches); but the point was that Jeus was performing an outward sign to let the people know that he had the power to forgive sins. He may have forgiven them simultaneous to healing and granted them repentance, who knows. But we can't be lured into forming doctrine from an incident in the gospel narrative. Jesus is sovereign and can do as he pleases.

 

[BaptistCanuk]

I'm sorry to come with a different view; I'm not trying to be difficult but I was taught the opposite. You forgive someone whether they repent or not. The reason I say this is I read in the Gospels where you forigive someone if they repent and I brought that up at a Bible study. I was told that I interpreted that wrongly. That we forgive people whether they repent or not. We ask God to forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.

Only God can demand repentance before He forgives. We are just human, we forgive whether someone repents or not because God has forgiven us.

[Edited on 5-2-2006 by BaptistCanuk]

 

[Scott Shahan]

brian,

this is the way that I was brought up and understood forgiveness, how our these two views brought together, what Bob, Chris, and Joshua are saying makes sense and I also see what you are saying where do these two views come together? What I see is that there are two different views here. I started this thread because of this dilema that's why I was asking all the questions, the way these guys have explained it to me here is new to me, but understandable and I believe biblical. How do these two different views fit together?

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Oh I know. It is hard to find the middle ground. After looking at both sides I chose to leave the demand for repentance to God and just forgive as I believe I'm told to. It isn't for the other person's benefit, it is for mine.

 

[beej6]

I think both BaptistCanuk's view and that of the rest of the thread are compatible; it's, as usual, a heart issue. Since I cannot know the heart of the one asking me for forgiveness, if he asks, I should assume he is repentant and grant my forgiveness. If I am going to confront him about that, I better know him really well.

In general, if we have been wronged by someone, then we should forgive him in our heart before being asked. Else it will fester and become resentment and anger and poison our hearts.

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Good point about it being a heart issue. I agree.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Oh I know. It is hard to find the middle ground. After looking at both sides I chose to leave the demand for repentance to God and just forgive as I believe I'm told to. It isn't for the other person's benefit, it is for mine.

This is how I have been taught, forgiving someone who has wronged me is for my benefit, because it free's me from resentment/bitterness.

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Right. I think it works too. If you forgive someone your heart won't become bitter. And you have to forgive someone before you partake of the Lord's Supper I believe, which means if they didn't repent, you still have to forgive them.

 

[DTK]

Originally posted by mangum
To illustrate as I don't want to be misunderstood:

Christian was just robbed at night by his neighbor. Christian knows this. Christian is upset about this but wants to forgive his thief neighbor (his willingness to forgive is good in God's sight). The thief is unrepentant, and does not seek forgiveness. Even though Christian wants to forgive the thief, actual forgiveness hasn't taken place. And cannot unless the thief seeks it. Christian is right before God even though the thief is not.

Now, given the same scenario, say the thief returns to Christian repentant, and asking for forgiveness. Christian, who is willing to forgive, then forgives the thief. NOW forgiveness has taken place. they are reconciled.

Note how Christian in both situations was standing ready to forgive. But only in the last one has actual forgiveness occurred. And, Christian was pleasing in God's sight even in a situation where true forgiveness had not taken place.

I agree. But there is, to be sure, a more firm and explicit directive in Holy Scripture itself beyond your very helpful illustration of forgiveness. I agree wholeheartedly that we should never hold anything in our hearts against a brother who has offended or sinned against us. Now, then what saith the Scripture?

Luke 17:3-4:
3 "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."

The posture of "readiness to forgive" is always to be ours at all times. But I'm not convinced that we can actually extend forgiveness in the absence of repentance.

DTK

 

[Contra_Mundum]

So many good things said so far. I really can't add much.

I would add that the matter of "forgiving him, for your own benefit," so that bitterness does not fester, is partially true, but can be put better. You need (as has been said already) "to stand ready to forgive," that is, having set to war against the sin of resentment in your own breast. For this sin is actually against God, against Providence.

But you also should remember that "reserving" the extention of forgivness is ALSO for someone's benefit. It's for the benefit of the one who has offended. How's that? Simple.

Ask yourself: If you think that forgiveness is "your right", if you think that regardless of what you do or regardless of what your attitude is toward your sin, that person or that Christian is supposed to just "forgive you" and treat you like you have committed no offense (if they are going to be a "good Christian")--then from the natural standpoint, you have zero incentive to repent, zero incentive to seek forgiveness.

Compare to the truth of repenting and seeking God's forgiveness. Look at all the unrepentant (and unsaved) church members and attenders. They've been taught that "God loves them" regardless of their attitude, regardless of how much more they love their sin, love sticking it to God, love doing it in his face, than they love God, than they desire to be reconciled to him. BECAUSE, they've been told that God already forgave them, and the proof is that Jesus supposedly died to remove every sin of every person (except maybe Hitler and Pol Pot), and the only thing left to do is believe (hey, isn't unbelief a sin? if it is, hasn't that been forgiven too?).

Bottom line, "readiness to forgive" is not the same thing as "having forgiven." Part of what should drive the sinner not only to God, but also to his fellowman is the knowledge that reconcilliation is demanded, and the ball is not in the "other guy's court" to just forgive-and-forget. No Sir. He's responsible to react in the right way to your overture. He's responsible to inform you that you hurt him, and to let you know he wants your repentance. See this truth?--first the offender is the one who OWES!

But NO, he is NOT responsible to just "let it slide," if he simply cannot. "Love covers a multitude of sins," but apparently not all of them, Rev. 6:11. Remember that verse. The "you owe me forgiveness" stance is repugnant to God's economy. It virtually guarantees that some folks will not be broken over their broken relationships, and they will never go back and try to repair them.

Yes, misunderstanding about forgiveness harms not only the person wronged, but also the person who has wronged. If they will not humble themselves to even ask for forgiveness (regardless of whether they mean it or not) then they actually have no forgiveness, no matter that the one wronged is prepared to grant it.

[Edited on 5-2-2006 by Contra_Mundum]

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Originally posted by DTK

Originally posted by mangum
To illustrate as I don't want to be misunderstood:

Christian was just robbed at night by his neighbor. Christian knows this. Christian is upset about this but wants to forgive his thief neighbor (his willingness to forgive is good in God's sight). The thief is unrepentant, and does not seek forgiveness. Even though Christian wants to forgive the thief, actual forgiveness hasn't taken place. And cannot unless the thief seeks it. Christian is right before God even though the thief is not.

Now, given the same scenario, say the thief returns to Christian repentant, and asking for forgiveness. Christian, who is willing to forgive, then forgives the thief. NOW forgiveness has taken place. they are reconciled.

Note how Christian in both situations was standing ready to forgive. But only in the last one has actual forgiveness occurred. And, Christian was pleasing in God's sight even in a situation where true forgiveness had not taken place.

I agree. But there is, to be sure, a more firm and explicit directive in Holy Scripture itself beyond your very helpful illustration of forgiveness. I agree wholeheartedly that we should never hold anything in our hearts against a brother who has offended or sinned against us. Now, then what saith the Scripture?

Luke 17:3-4:
3 "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."

The posture of "readiness to forgive" is always to be ours at all times. But I'm not convinced that we can actually extend forgiveness in the absence of repentance.

DTK

That's the Scriptural passage that I used when I brought the issue up at Bible study. They said that it is not teaching that you only forgive if someone repents; but it is teaching that if someone repents you HAVE to forgive them as many times as they repent.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

For brevity in my initial response, and not knowing the precise issue that Scott wanted addressed I focused primarily on the offender and not the offendee.

DTK points out the passage in question that demonstrates that sin incurs a debt upon the one who offends. That debt is both to the man he offends and to God for violating His commands. I think to have a full-orbed understanding of whether or not the offender is forgiven you have to take both into account.

I fully agree, for instance, that the offended party should stand ready to forgive a brother. In fact, when possible we're commanded to cover some offenses with love. Perhaps the sin against me was unintentional. I was wounded by something my wife said but, instread of exercising my "right" to say to her: "Sonya that offended me...", I cover it with love. In this case the issue is more my own sin nature at times and her offense was quite unintentional.

In other cases, within the Church and without, the sin is much more obvious. Let's assume a brother sins against me. I stand ready to forgive him but can he be relieved of the guilt of that sin simply by my willingness to forgive? Perhaps I even tell others: I forgive him for that. Well that's nice but even if I don't demand the debt be paid then God still does. In the eyes of God, that man needs to repent to me and to God. I don't have the authority to forgive sin in the ultimate sense.

Thus, a Christian always remains ready to forgive debts owed to Him because He has had much debt forgiven Him. Nevertheless, the debtor is not exonerated or forgiven sin until he has repented of that sin. Only God has the authority to forgive sin - something the Pharisees were well aware of and it drove them crazy that Christ forgave sin. Praise God that He did.

 

[Scott Shahan]

So if there is no repentance there is no forgiveness? Let me see if I am understanding; The believer always needs to be ready to give forgiveness for a offense, but not be able to give it since the offender doesn't seek repentance. What does the believer do with the wrong that was done, does he just sit there with it and live with it until the person comes to repentance. How does the believer get free from the injury if he can not forgive the offender; since forgiveness is contingent on repentance. How does the believer get free from the resentment that comes from an intentional injury brought on by the offender. The answer that I am constantly told is Scott you need to forgive; you are commanded to forgive. I am suppose to respond to a wrong with a "willing" forgiving heart to forgive and that "willing"forgiving heart sets me free from the resentment / bitterness that would come from a wrong done to me. With a stance of willing to forgive I am in right standing with the Lord.I am just trying to see the "duty" of each party involved the offender/offendee

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Originally posted by Scott Shahan
So if there is no repentance there is no forgiveness? Let me see if I am understanding; The believer always needs to be ready to give forgiveness for a offense, but not be able to give it since the offender doesn't seek repentance. What does the believer do with the wrong that was done, does he just sit there with it and live with it until the person comes to repentance. How does the believer get free from the injury if he can not forgive the offender; since forgiveness is contingent on repentance. How does the believer get free from the resentment that comes from an intentional injury brought on by the offender. The answer that I am constantly told is Scott you need to forgive; you are commanded to forgive. I am suppose to respond to a wrong with a "willing" forgiving heart to forgive and that "willing"forgiving heart sets me free from the resentment / bitterness that would come from a wrong done to me. With a stance of willing to forgive I am in right standing with the Lord.I am just trying to see the "duty" of each party involved the offender/offendee

Scott,

It seems like you're talking about a particular situation.

I'm trying to be careful here because it is not prudent to make simple statements like: "You just have to forgive that person...."

Let me give you a good example: I had to work with a sadistic and uprofessional senior officer during OIF I that made an already difficult deployment incredibly unpleasant on a daily basis. That officer berated me in front of others and undercut the authority of my command. I was bitter about that experience for a whole year. I mean viscerally bitter. In fact, I still do not have good feelings in my heart when I think about that man.

That was not the real issue, however, of my "resentment". My continued anger at being wronged and being resentful could not be projected at the individual any more. He was gone. I could say that I forgave him but there was no repentance on his part. I knew if I even went up to him and said "I forgive you" he would say "For what? I didn't do anything wrong...." In other words, convincing myself that I forgave him would have only been a fiction of sorts because there was no contrition. The offense still stood between us. In fact, it still stands. In the end, it was not the thought that the offense had been removed that caused me to come to some peace over the issue....

What brought peace was repenting to God for blaming Him for allowing the offense. That sounds strange I know but when we're sinned against, our continued and indignant anger at "How could this happen to me?" ultimately gets re-directed at God who we know deep down could have prevented it. In fact, what the incident caused me to realize is that I didn't really trust God as much as I thought because I had never been tried in my faith. Instead of responding with "...everything works together for the good..." I had repsonded by going inward and feeling self-pity about unjust treatment. Did I deserve justice on a human level? Yes. Between God and me, however, I had sinned because I didn't trust God through my trial. I continued to worry more about my future as a Marine, my future promotions, and my "status".

In the end, being sinned against is a normal course of life and some of the sins we endure are more heinous than others. While we cannot really forgive someone who has not asked for forgiveness, we can give over thoughts of "I didn't deserve this" or even retributive feelings to God. We know both that judgment belongs to Him and not us. We also know that everything that happens is under His control and we should learn to be content in our abundance and in our abasement.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Rich,

Thanks for sharing that personal experience, that is what the real issue is a lack of trusting God, with this injury that I have

 

[DTK]

Originally posted by Scott Shahan
So if there is no repentance there is no forgiveness? Let me see if I am understanding; The believer always needs to be ready to give forgiveness for a offense, but not be able to give it since the offender doesn't seek repentance. What does the believer do with the wrong that was done, does he just sit there with it and live with it until the person comes to repentance. How does the believer get free from the injury if he can not forgive the offender; since forgiveness is contingent on repentance. How does the believer get free from the resentment that comes from an intentional injury brought on by the offender. The answer that I am constantly told is Scott you need to forgive; you are commanded to forgive. I am suppose to respond to a wrong with a "willing" forgiving heart to forgive and that "willing"forgiving heart sets me free from the resentment / bitterness that would come from a wrong done to me. With a stance of willing to forgive I am in right standing with the Lord.I am just trying to see the "duty" of each party involved the offender/offendee

This sounds like a particular situation with which you're dealing. I encourage you to speak with either your pastor or one of your elders, and seek out their assistance to help you come to terms with what you're facing. You can't force anyone to repent, and you can only deal with your own heart before God.

Moreover, seek to determine if this is an "offense given" you or an "offense received." If it is an offense received, then it could be that the other party hasn't given offense at all, but that it's something you yourself have manufactured. I don't say that to be accusative, but suggest it only as an area you need to explore personally in the presence of God.

This is why I encourage you to seek the counsel of an elder. Oftentimes such aid can help you sort out the difficulty, and see it in a different or clearer light.

DTK

 

[Semper Fidelis]

No problem Scott.

I just thought of these passages:

2 Sam 16
Shimei Curses David

5 As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul's family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king's officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David's right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, "Get out, get out, you man of blood, you scoundrel! 8 The LORD has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The LORD has handed the kingdom over to your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a man of blood!"
9 Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head."

10 But the king said, "What do you and I have in common, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the LORD said to him, 'Curse David,' who can ask, 'Why do you do this?' "

11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, who is of my own flesh, is trying to take my life. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to. 12 It may be that the LORD will see my distress and repay me with good for the cursing I am receiving today."

13 So David and his men continued along the road while Shimei was going along the hillside opposite him, cursing as he went and throwing stones at him and showering him with dirt. 14 The king and all the people with him arrived at their destination exhausted. And there he refreshed himself.

2 Sam 19
14 He won over the hearts of all the men of Judah as though they were one man. They sent word to the king, "Return, you and all your men." 15 Then the king returned and went as far as the Jordan.
Now the men of Judah had come to Gilgal to go out and meet the king and bring him across the Jordan. 16 Shimei son of Gera, the Benjamite from Bahurim, hurried down with the men of Judah to meet King David. 17 With him were a thousand Benjamites, along with Ziba, the steward of Saul's household, and his fifteen sons and twenty servants. They rushed to the Jordan, where the king was. 18 They crossed at the ford to take the king's household over and to do whatever he wished.
When Shimei son of Gera crossed the Jordan, he fell prostrate before the king 19 and said to him, "May my lord not hold me guilty. Do not remember how your servant did wrong on the day my lord the king left Jerusalem. May the king put it out of his mind. 20 For I your servant know that I have sinned, but today I have come here as the first of the whole house of Joseph to come down and meet my lord the king."

21 Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said, "Shouldn't Shimei be put to death for this? He cursed the LORD's anointed."

22 David replied, "What do you and I have in common, you sons of Zeruiah? This day you have become my adversaries! Should anyone be put to death in Israel today? Do I not know that today I am king over Israel?" 23 So the king said to Shimei, "You shall not die." And the king promised him on oath.

1 Kings 2
8 "And remember, you have with you Shimei son of Gera, the Benjamite from Bahurim, who called down bitter curses on me the day I went to Mahanaim. When he came down to meet me at the Jordan, I swore to him by the LORD : 'I will not put you to death by the sword.' 9 But now, do not consider him innocent. You are a man of wisdom; you will know what to do to him. Bring his gray head down to the grave in blood."

1 Kings 2
36 Then the king sent for Shimei and said to him, "Build yourself a house in Jerusalem and live there, but do not go anywhere else. 37 The day you leave and cross the Kidron Valley, you can be sure you will die; your blood will be on your own head."

38 Shimei answered the king, "What you say is good. Your servant will do as my lord the king has said." And Shimei stayed in Jerusalem for a long time.

39 But three years later, two of Shimei's slaves ran off to Achish son of Maacah, king of Gath, and Shimei was told, "Your slaves are in Gath." 40 At this, he saddled his donkey and went to Achish at Gath in search of his slaves. So Shimei went away and brought the slaves back from Gath.

41 When Solomon was told that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath and had returned, 42 the king summoned Shimei and said to him, "Did I not make you swear by the LORD and warn you, 'On the day you leave to go anywhere else, you can be sure you will die'? At that time you said to me, 'What you say is good. I will obey.' 43 Why then did you not keep your oath to the LORD and obey the command I gave you?"

44 The king also said to Shimei, "You know in your heart all the wrong you did to my father David. Now the LORD will repay you for your wrongdoing. 45 But King Solomon will be blessed, and David's throne will remain secure before the LORD forever."

46 Then the king gave the order to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he went out and struck Shimei down and killed him.
The kingdom was now firmly established in Solomon's hands.

Interesting isn't it? David is content to let God judge Shimei for the wrong he did in God's own time. It is pretty obvious that Shimei's "repentance" is more groveling for fear and not real contrition but what we call attrition. In the former, one is truly sorry to God and man for what he did. In that latter (attrition) one is only afraid of being punished but, had David been destroyed, Shimei would not have cared that God's annointed was struck down. He sided with Saul - a wicked man. David, however, shows wisdom in knowing that God would vindicate him. He trusted in God when he could have sought to vindicate himself. In the end, Shimei gets what his offense (without repentance) deserves and David trusts in God.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Rich, thanks for posting those scriptures. Why is it so hard to trust the Lord? He has proven His faithfulness to me time and time again, and I still have a hard time trusting Him and this is my sin.

This is what I am dealing with (talking about)
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=17253

I am trying to get OVER it! I am getting tired of it being the "story" of my life. And I am tired of it consuming me and controlling me. I want some peace and be able to move on... I need to be free of it resentment/bitterness/anger/self pity...ect.......I am tired of living the nightmare time and time again. Refeeling the hurt; replaying the injury in my mind. It has enslaved me and I need to be free. When am I going to get over this??????

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]