Which better? Dispensational Baptist or emerging PCA?

[Pilgrim]

I agree that it is your duty to complain especially if you held membership in that church (which I understand you don't--however I thought it was mandated by the board rules that one state what church one is a member of). But my understanding is that the directory for worship is not binding in the PCA so I really don't know what good it would do unless they are teaching heresy.

I can think of some situations (including home missions) in which Old School leaning ministers left the PCA for the OPC or an OPC was planted in areas where all of the PCA's had "contemporary" worship, etc. and at least one case in which a PCA presbytery was hostile toward an Old School church planter whose style was seen as too confrontational toward Mormons, etc.

Is the URCNA looking for a pastor? If so I would probably go there if it is otherwise solid.

I take "red snickers" to mean red sneakers.

 

[Zenas]

Presbyteries are pretty much helpless to do anything, even if they wanted to, since the local leadership is responsible for such matters (unless you can clearly demonstrate to the satisfaction of a presbytery commission they are teaching or doing something totally contrary to the PCA Constitution and damaging the peace and purity of the larger Church). Even if you have friends in presbytery, there usually is some semblance of a good old boy network and the presumption of innocence strong (as it should be). Then, when things don’t work out at the presbytery level, you have to ask yourself if it is worth trying to take it to the GA.

Obviously, Presbyterians are not pretty much helpless with regard to options for appeal. There is much more oversight present in the Presbyterian form of government than in any other form I can imagine. For a Presbyterian to be "pretty much helpless", the local session needs to be corrupt, the Presbytery needs to be corrupt, and most of the General Assembly or Synod needs to be corrupt. Only then, after all of that conspiracy and corruption beyond all reason, is a Presbyterian helpless and out of human options as to appeal.

If you're wondering why I take exception to your assertion, it's because of the flippant way with which you dismiss the carefully thought out Presbyterian form of government and the immense amount of over-sight that has been worked in, with assumptions that everyone is a corrupt "good ole' boy". Perhaps you should re-think your premises and your approach.

 

[danmpem]

Let's see . . . Calvinistic . . . heavily into Macarthur . . . good biblical, expositional teaching . . . pastor was a missionary to some former communist country . . . and is a former Marine. Hmmmmm. Now let me think about this. I know that there is a right answer here somewhere. Could it be . . . BAPTIST?!!!!!!!!!!

If there were my two best choices, I would gladly hitch a ride on the rapture express. I disagree with the notion that MacArthur doesn't know any bettter, however. He has been on a pilgrimage away from dispensationalism and towards Calvinism, the Puritans, and Reformed theology for some time. He KNOWS the arguments as well as anyone but has not been able to completely sever himself from his heritage.

Is the church a decent church otherwise? You emphasize the teaching but not the other facets of the congregational life and ministry in the community. If all things were truly equal, I would select the baptist (no surprise there). However, all things are seldom equal.

 

[Poimen]

I agree with Chris (Pilgrim) though I am biased for the URCNA (for obvious reasons). I would suggest that you should go and be with those people, submit yourself to the rule of the elders there and wait out the time for them to call & install a minister.

In the meanwhile, be thankful there is a solid Reformed church nearby. I am not saying you are ungrateful, but don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Pilgrim]

From the description of it, the PCA church doesn't sound like it is doing its job in terms of worship. Go with the Baptist church, as long as you're sure it is Reformed in its doctrine of salvation. You won't get fed at a PCA church like that.

Good enough as far as it goes, but what happens when it's time for infants to be baptized if one believes as the WCF states that it is sinful to neglect it?

I would probably do as jaybird counseled and look for the closest solid Reformed church, seek membership there and go as often as possible, maybe attending the Baptist church when you can't get to the Reformed one if the preaching at the Baptist church is solid and doesn't focus heavily on eschatology. Then I would either look to move or work toward a sound church being planted in the area if the current RINO (Reformed in name only) churches seem to be irreformable.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Obviously, Presbyterians are not pretty much helpless with regard to options for appeal. There is much more oversight present in the Presbyterian form of government than in any other form I can imagine. For a Presbyterian to be "pretty much helpless", the local session needs to be corrupt, the Presbytery needs to be corrupt, and most of the General Assembly or Synod needs to be corrupt. Only then, after all of that conspiracy and corruption beyond all reason, is a Presbyterian helpless and out of human options as to appeal.

If you're wondering why I take exception to your assertion, it's because of the flippant way with which you dismiss the carefully thought out Presbyterian form of government and the immense amount of over-sight that has been worked in, with assumptions that everyone is a corrupt "good ole' boy". Perhaps you should re-think your premises and your approach.

There is principle and there is practice. I love Presbyterian polity in principle. In some cases the practice stinks. I am reminded that PCA does not stand for Perfect Church in America. In reality, it encompasses a broad spectrum of interpretations as to what it means to be a real Presbyterian. Coffee and feet up in worship seems to be just as acceptable in the present PCA as old fashioned, straight back Southern Presbyterianism, maybe more so. What presbytery would disagree?

I hope that analysis is not too flippant, but it seems to match what I have experienced in my not-quite 30 years in the PCA.

 

[Pilgrim]

Presbyteries are pretty much helpless to do anything, even if they wanted to, since the local leadership is responsible for such matters (unless you can clearly demonstrate to the satisfaction of a presbytery commission they are teaching or doing something totally contrary to the PCA Constitution and damaging the peace and purity of the larger Church). Even if you have friends in presbytery, there usually is some semblance of a good old boy network and the presumption of innocence strong (as it should be). Then, when things don’t work out at the presbytery level, you have to ask yourself if it is worth trying to take it to the GA.

Obviously, Presbyterians are not pretty much helpless with regard to options for appeal. There is much more oversight present in the Presbyterian form of government than in any other form I can imagine. For a Presbyterian to be "pretty much helpless", the local session needs to be corrupt, the Presbytery needs to be corrupt, and most of the General Assembly or Synod needs to be corrupt. Only then, after all of that conspiracy and corruption beyond all reason, is a Presbyterian helpless and out of human options as to appeal.

If you're wondering why I take exception to your assertion, it's because of the flippant way with which you dismiss the carefully thought out Presbyterian form of government and the immense amount of over-sight that has been worked in, with assumptions that everyone is a corrupt "good ole' boy". Perhaps you should re-think your premises and your approach.

My understanding is that nothing will be done in the PCA WRT to worship style, etc if that is the only complaint, unless maybe it is full blown charismatic.

Not to start things up again, but I think the "good ole boy" network goes a long way toward explaining how things went down the way they did in the LA Presbytery i.e. a reluctance to consider that a long time colleague might be in error.

 

[Pilgrim]

I agree with Chris (Pilgrim) though I am biased for the URCNA (for obvious reasons). I would suggest that you should go and be with those people, submit yourself to the rule of the elders there and wait out the time for them to call & install a minister.

In the meanwhile, be thankful there is a solid Reformed church nearby. I am not saying you are ungrateful, but don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Indeed. In some parts of the country there is not a solid Reformed church for hundreds of miles.

 

[Pilgrim]

There is an OPC congregation in Overland Park, KS. Judging from the OPC website it may not have a pastor either. Perhaps it is the other church without a pastor that you noted. However, if you are convinced that Presbyterianism is the teaching of the scriptures, then my counsel is join this church or the URCNA if the elders are "able to teach" as scripture requires and assuming that both are solid and that they haven't chewed up and spit out a succession of pastors as is sometimes the case.

This would be my advice even if Charles Spurgeon himself were the pastor of the Baptist church.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Neither.

Read WCF 26. A Christian must always worship somewhere, and if those are the only two options, then I would go to the Baptist church which seems to be reforming in accordance with the word of God, rather than a PCA church which is drifting from Biblical standards. They sound as if they might even abandon there rapturist teaching the way they are going.

 

[JDKetterman]

I would find some liked minded people and plant a church...

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

I would find some liked minded people and plant a church...

Great idea!

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Interesting proposition JDK...

 

[toddpedlar]

I would find some liked minded people and plant a church...

MUCH easier said than done in the more sparsely populated parts of the country, though...

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I would find some liked minded people and plant a church...

MUCH easier said than done in the more sparsely populated parts of the country, though...

Why not just meet with the Lord's people in the church that is already there?

 

[shackleton]

Erick:

Where is your church membership?

My wife and I are still members of the baptist church we went to before we became reformed just over 2 years ago.

 

[danmpem]

I agree with Chris (Pilgrim) though I am biased for the URCNA (for obvious reasons). I would suggest that you should go and be with those people, submit yourself to the rule of the elders there and wait out the time for them to call & install a minister.

In the meanwhile, be thankful there is a solid Reformed church nearby. I am not saying you are ungrateful, but don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Indeed. In some parts of the country there is not a solid Reformed church for hundreds of miles.

And I am at the center of it all!

 

[danmpem]

Erick:

Where is your church membership?

My wife and I are still members of the baptist church we went to before we became reformed just over 2 years ago.

Is it semi-pelagian, dispinsational, or fairly non-affiliated?

 

[toddpedlar]

We are not members there we just know someone who is a deacon and are debating about going because we know him. So I do not know where that leaves our obligations to tell the presbytery.

Ah - thought you were members, since your signature seems to indicate that you are.

There are a few reformed churches in the area two of which do not have pastors and one is the PCA church that is a considerable distance away. We were attending a URCNA church which we liked but that is one of the ones that does not have a pastor.

Hm. I'd be in that URCNA church like a fly on ... well, you get the picture.

 

[toddpedlar]

I would find some liked minded people and plant a church...

MUCH easier said than done in the more sparsely populated parts of the country, though...

Why not just meet with the Lord's people in the church that is already there?

I'm confused by your response, Daniel. What exactly do you mean? I was simply remarking that some seem to think that there are clearly enough Reformed-minded people in any given area (say, 400 square miles) that one ought to be able, if he desired, to get a reformed church plant going. Ain't necessarily so.

 

[Zenas]

I hope that analysis is not too flippant, but it seems to match what I have experienced in my not-quite 30 years in the PCA.

You're entitled to your opinion, and mine stands regardless.

 

[Kevin]

I am going to be contrary to what most have said so far and say go PCA.

Because church government matters, because the covenant matters, and because the sacraments matter.

As many friends as I have who are in great Reformed Baptist churches, and no matter the level of teaching (in SOME areas,remember they are still baptist) they will still teach you (and more importantly your children) a false view of the covenant, the sacraments, & church government.

In my humble opinion the insistence of (almost all) Baptist on (heretical) rebabtism of covenant children would be a deal breaker.

Since I am convinced that for a covenant child to be re-baptised (sic) would be a denial of the faith, I could not in good conscience place my family in that setting long term.

 

[shackleton]

Is it semi-pelagian, dispinsational, or fairly non-affiliated?

It is all the above and very anti Calvinistic. The pastor did a sermon series on the evils of Calvinism using Ergon Canor as his example, that is why we left.

Todd, we were going to a PCA church right after we left the baptist church but had problems with the pastor and left so we are familiar with the presbyterian model that is why we were trying the other PCA churches in the area.

 

[Wannabee]

The area I live in is very dead spiritually. Liberalism is very strong, both the traditional style and the new emerging, Rick Warren chruch grow style. That is why I said that all the churches were pretty much the same.

Hmmm. Sounds like you live in America. This, sadly, is the standard wherever we have gone. And the PCA church sounds like what I've heard about the local PCA church here.

Dennis hit the nail on the head. With the connections and emphasis this man has, I surely doubt he'll be preaching on the rapture much. The idea that the sensational eschatalogical system bleeds from every verse is relegated to the Dispensational churches that rely on systems, charts and programs rather than God's Word. Give this guy a chance and sit under his teaching for a while. Who knows, maybe you'll learn something and become more like Christ.

Having said that, I can sympathize with the counsel to make the trek to a paedo church. We have lived in situations where we drove 20-30 miles to attend a like-minded church. While I could worship with, attend and fellowship with a paedo church, I doubt I could join because I probably could not accept their constitution or by-laws. I certainly would not be willing to baptize my children. And, while I'm certain they would welcome anyone who desired to worship with them, believer's baptism precludes membership in many churches. Not all churches hold to this, in fact most don't. But you might discuss this with the baptist pastor and see what your possibilities and limitations would be. It could take options of the table for you.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

MUCH easier said than done in the more sparsely populated parts of the country, though...

Why not just meet with the Lord's people in the church that is already there?

I'm confused by your response, Daniel. What exactly do you mean? I was simply remarking that some seem to think that there are clearly enough Reformed-minded people in any given area (say, 400 square miles) that one ought to be able, if he desired, to get a reformed church plant going. Ain't necessarily so.

Sorry Todd, I was really talking about JDKetterman's comment, but your's was attached by mistake.

 

[SRoper]

I'd have to go with the PCA church as well. Church government and the sacraments matter much more than worship style.

 

[Pilgrim]

It seems like a false choice between the Baptist church and the PCA ones you describe since those are not the only choices available. Are you simply ruling out the URCNA and OPC churches because they currently do not have a pastor? If so that is a mistake unless you know something you haven't posted here.

 

[Pilgrim]

Whether or not the Baptist church preaches much on the rapture, many of them view anyone who doesn't take an essentially dispensational view of Israel and the Church as inherently anti-semitic. See Barry Horner's Future Israel, which was strongly endorsed by John MacArthur.

 

[Stephen]

I would find some liked minded people and plant a church...

MUCH easier said than done in the more sparsely populated parts of the country, though...

Why not just meet with the Lord's people in the church that is already there?

Brilliant suggestion. Why plant a church if there is already a church.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

MUCH easier said than done in the more sparsely populated parts of the country, though...

Why not just meet with the Lord's people in the church that is already there?

Brilliant suggestion. Why plant a church if there is already a church.

Precisely. There are enough divisions in the body of Christ as it is. Why multiply them unnecessarily.