Which Testament interprets the other, Old or New?

[just_grace]

Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
Did Abraham have the Holy Spirit internally, or is Abraham in hell? (cf. John 3:3-10)

Well for a start, Abraham's salvation was never in doubt. For he believed....plus God's promise was made to him...and his offspring. ( that is all those in Christ )

Why did Christ have to preach to those past dead?

Why was Enoch taken alive? And others.

Actually, we are very fortunate people now...

[Edited on 12-25-2005 by just_grace]

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

David,

I understand what you are saying, however, you did not answer my question in relation to your statement.

You said:

So tell me Chris, in what Covenant was the Holy Spirit given, the most precious gift that a man can be given, old or new? It was the promised gift. And we have it now. At least I know I have it! It's my seal.

Then I asked

Did Abraham have the Holy Spirit internally, or is Abraham in hell? (cf. John 3:3-10)

You really did not answer that.

Do you believe that Abraham had the Holy Spirit indwelling him?

If I might be so forward - let me answer by the Apostle's answer:

1 Peter 1:10-11, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

Now we see that the OT prophets, who declared "this salvation" (which they had) inquired into carefully. They were good exegetes of God's Word, knowing full well that there are not two kinds of Christians - those who have the Spirit and those who don't. They knew that "this salvation" was "their salvation" as well. This grace that they had, was also given to others, as the Apostle says, "of the grace that would come to you." So they had what would also come "to you." What was this grace? They testified before hand, and partook in the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. In this they carefully search, having, just as we do, the "Spirit of Christ" IN THEM.

All the prophets, then, of the OT, had the Spirit of Christ in them. Not as Spurgeon says, "bouncing around", which is the epitome of silliness.

Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. all had the same Spirit of Christ as we have. As a matter of fact, it is the same Gospel we have today that they had then. Jesus preached the Kingdom of Heaven. It was the same kingdom Noah preached and Abraham preached and knew of.

As Paul says, Galatians 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

The Gospel never changes. It is only fulfilled. That is why the same Spirit, the same Christ, the same Kingdom, the same information contained in the OT by substance is commented and more fully explain (not newly introduced) in the NT.

Abraham was as much living in the fullness of the Spirit as we do. Otherwise, we should also heed the rebuke Christ gave Nicodemus for not understanding what it means to be born again, which is an OT concept!

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

[Edited on 12-26-2005 by C. Matthew McMahon]

 

[biblelighthouse]

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by just_grace
So tell me Chris, in what Covenant was the Holy Spirit given, the most precious gift that a man can be given, old or new? It was the promised gift. And we have it now. At least I know I have it! It's my seal.

For one thing, there are different senses in which one can speak of the Holy Spirit's being "given":

Since totally depraved man has been in need of efficacious regeneration since the Fall, the Spirit was necessary for any and all individuals to even come to faith from then on, as He was for sanctification.

With regard to the Spirit dwelling in certain men to gift and prepare them for God's work, there are numerous examples throughout the Old Testament, such as Genesis 41:38; Exodus 31:3; 35:31; Numbers 11; 27; Judges 3:10; and countless other examples as well. (Do an online search for the word "Spirit" in the Old Testament.) We likewise see that type of the Spirit's work in the special revelations to the Prophets, which ceased for a significant period of time between them and the New Covenant.

In reference to the events and phenomena of Pentecost, there is clear Scriptural demonstration that it was a specific act in redemptive history, intended for a particular time, and as such was in essentially the same category as the periods of time that contained the type of cases I mentioned in my above paragraph. (To go into a detailed argument of why that is the case would be past the subject of this thread, but you can do a search on "cessationism" with my username as the author.) Thus, the whole reference to the "coming" of the Spirit ("Helper") in John 14-16 was not some declaration that all believers would be affected by the Spirit's work in a completely new sense that the believers of the Old Covenant were not (even though it may be said to have made that work of the Spirit more clear), but rather a foretelling of the next (and last until the final judgment) outpouring of the Spirit in special revelation in the manner as with the Prophets.

Originally posted by just_grace
What I mean is Chris, is that you would have arrived at this knowledge without Christ?

Simple with hind site mate

Had I lived under the Old Covenant, I would not understand how it all works together and what exactly the implications of it were in as explicit and clear a fashion "“ but I do not see any biblical evidence whatsoever (and in fact I see significant problems with it) for the notion that there is any of it of which I would not possess the substance as an Old Covenant believer, or which would not have been revealed to me in some degree, albeit a less clear and explicit one that in the New Covenant.

As I originally illustrated through the comparison of Leviticus 19:18 and John 13:34, I would have known of the "new" commandment just as well under the Old Covenant as I would have being one of the people Jesus gave it to in those terms. Likewise, as I explained from Scripture throughout this post above, I would have the Spirit for regeneration and sanctification, and would also have known of the cases of particular times in which He gave special revelation to the Prophets and miraculous signs to certain people of God for specific purposes.

Originally posted by just_grace
And btw it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all Truth.

Indeed "“ and does not this point all the more to the necessity of all the Spirit's work and presence under the Old Covenant, as God´s people of that time were certainly aware of truth?

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Your choices are inadequate. You need a category that says "Both Testaments interpret each other."

That's the only reason I chose, "neither."

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahonWe cannot find anything ideally in the NT not in the OT in this manner.

For the deep thinker your probably right Matthew, but for people on the street, they need to hear the Gospel, and the first phrase of Hebrews puts it like this...

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

God has revealed a lot more through His Son than He ever did in the OT and prophets, in my honest opinion.

[Edited on 12-25-2005 by just_grace]

So is it your belief, then, that gospel is not to be found clearly in the OT? If so, that particular dog doesn't hunt! What do you think Jesus was propounding to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus when he began with Moses and showed them all the things written concerning himself?

Could he not not have mentioned Gen. 3:15? How about Psalm 27? Isa. 53? (I could go on...)

 

[Steve Owen]

Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon

If all you are saying is, "The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed" then that is knindergarten stuff and we have no disagreement.

We are in agreement then! Amen! Yes, this is exactly what I mean. There is nothing new in the NT that is not first, under types, shadows, or even explicitely, stated in the OT.

Excellent! However, the danger comes when one takes the 'types' and 'shadows' and tries to impose them upon the much clearer light of the NT.

That is why the WCF 1:5 uses the phrase, "the consent of all the parts" as pertaining to everything being in harmony with everything else, and that all parts "consent" of the validity of every truth held therein. We cannot find anything ideally in the NT not in the OT in this manner.

I can accept this so long as one is not imposing the shadow upon the reality.

In WCF 1:6 it says, "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture:"

I dislike the phrasing here because there will inevitably be disagreement over what is 'good and necessary.' I prefer the 1689 Confessions amendment to this:-

B.C.F. 1689. 1:6. 'The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture, to which nothing is to be added at any time, either by new revelation of the Spirit, or by the traditions of men.'

Grace & Peace,

Martin

[Edited on 1-1-2006 by Martin Marprelate]

 

[just_grace]

Sorry, been away, enjoying the festivities with family...

What you on about?

I see the ditto ditto sheep followers...

You ask about the possesion of the Spirit in regards to people of old, I am just trying to see how I can relate this to today, was tempted to type new there.
Matthew, ask me a 'direct question' lets not beat about the bush.

Ask me a question that you would like me to answer.

The best you can produce.

David

Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
David,

I understand what you are saying, however, you did not answer my question in relation to your statement.

You said:

So tell me Chris, in what Covenant was the Holy Spirit given, the most precious gift that a man can be given, old or new? It was the promised gift. And we have it now. At least I know I have it! It's my seal.

Then I asked

Did Abraham have the Holy Spirit internally, or is Abraham in hell? (cf. John 3:3-10)

You really did not answer that.

Do you believe that Abraham had the Holy Spirit indwelling him?

If I might be so forward - let me answer by the Apostle's answer:

1 Peter 1:10-11, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

Now we see that the OT prophets, who declared "this salvation" (which they had) inquired into carefully. They were good exegetes of God's Word, knowing full well that there are not two kinds of Christians - those who have the Spirit and those who don't. They knew that "this salvation" was "their salvation" as well. This grace that they had, was also given to others, as the Apostle says, "of the grace that would come to you." So they had what would also come "to you." What was this grace? They testified before hand, and partook in the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. In this they carefully search, having, just as we do, the "Spirit of Christ" IN THEM.

All the prophets, then, of the OT, had the Spirit of Christ in them. Not as Spurgeon says, "bouncing around", which is the epitome of silliness.

Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. all had the same Spirit of Christ as we have. As a matter of fact, it is the same Gospel we have today that they had then. Jesus preached the Kingdom of Heaven. It was the same kingdom Noah preached and Abraham preached and knew of.

As Paul says, Galatians 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

The Gospel never changes. It is only fulfilled. That is why the same Spirit, the same Christ, the same Kingdom, the same information contained in the OT by substance is commented and more fully explain (not newly introduced) in the NT.

Abraham was as much living in the fullness of the Spirit as we do. Otherwise, we should also heed the rebuke Christ gave Nicodemus for not understanding what it means to be born again, which is an OT concept!

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

[Edited on 12-26-2005 by C. Matthew McMahon]

Edited because of a letter.... It did not change anyones personal destiny...

[Edited on 12-29-2005 by just_grace]