Will Nations Still Exist?

[Jon Lake]

All Christians claim a belief in the return of Christ different schools of thought teach variants on how or when, (I am not sure where I stand, I think there will be a period where Christ reigns from earth, I might be convinced otherwise), however another thread of mine led me to the question, will Nations still exist in the end-times? I have always thought so, but...have I not understood the Scriptures correctly in this matter?

 

[timmopussycat]

All Christians claim a belief in the return of Christ different schools of thought teach variants on how or when, (I am not sure where I stand, I think there will be a period where Christ reigns from earth, I might be convinced otherwise), however another thread of mine led me to the question, will Nations still exist in the end-times? I have always thought so, but...have I not understood the Scriptures correctly in this matter?

Are you asking about political states or ethinic groups?

 

[Christusregnat]

All Christians claim a belief in the return of Christ different schools of thought teach variants on how or when, (I am not sure where I stand, I think there will be a period where Christ reigns from earth, I might be convinced otherwise), however another thread of mine led me to the question, will Nations still exist in the end-times? I have always thought so, but...have I not understood the Scriptures correctly in this matter?

The Great Commission implies that all of the nations of the earth will become Christ's disciples; therefore, nations will exist until the end of the age.

Also, it is a matter of Confessional teaching that the Jews will be converted after all of the nations are (see the Catechisms). Here's a passage discussing as much:

Isaiah 19:18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD Almighty. One of them will be called the City of Destruction.

19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them. 22 The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance."

Note that the Gentiles are included in the covenant; language drawn directly from the Exodus generation, from Joshua's pillar, and the establishment of divine worship. The nations will be Christ's disciples. THEN, Israel will be recalled, and will be the third among three. This is parallel to Paul's discussion in Romans 11. Notice also that they are still nations: Egypt, Assyria and Israel. It should be noted that Egypt and Assyria were two very great enemies of Israel, and were therefore chosen as representatives of all nations.

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Jon Lake]

All Christians claim a belief in the return of Christ different schools of thought teach variants on how or when, (I am not sure where I stand, I think there will be a period where Christ reigns from earth, I might be convinced otherwise), however another thread of mine led me to the question, will Nations still exist in the end-times? I have always thought so, but...have I not understood the Scriptures correctly in this matter?

Are you asking about political states or ethinic groups?

I think Adam helped clarify my question, I was always curious about areas in the prophets where it spoke of Christ as ruler of the nations at some level I thought it might be political states (though perhaps in a "form" they are not in currently).

 

[Pergamum]

Also, it is a matter of Confessional teaching that the Jews will be converted after all of the nations are (see the Catechisms). Here's a passage discussing as much:


Adam

Could you elaborate on this more?

More proofs and more quotes? This is fascinating.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 10:22:18 EST-----

If some of every tongue, tribe and nation will be before the throne and if we will keep our identities in heaven, it appears that nations, tongues and tribes might exist forever.

 

[Ivan]

When I heard nations I think governments, but that may be just me.

 

[Jon Lake]

Also, it is a matter of Confessional teaching that the Jews will be converted after all of the nations are (see the Catechisms). Here's a passage discussing as much:


Adam

Could you elaborate on this more?

More proofs and more quotes? This is fascinating.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 10:22:18 EST-----

If some of every tongue, tribe and nation will be before the throne and if we will keep our identities in heaven, it appears that nations, tongues and tribes might exist forever.

I agree, from what I "get" from Scripture on the matter is that at some level a corporate identity does remain, I could be TOTALLY wrong on this, why I started the thread, I was looking for smarter people than me.

 

[Pergamum]

When I hear nations I think ethnic-linguistic groups.

 

[Jon Lake]

When I hear nations I think ethnic-linguistic groups.

I would not rule it out, well perhaps the linguistic part to a degree, but the ethnic part, why not.....

 

[Pergamum]

Why not the linguistic part? Do you think we'll only speak one language in heaven? Why not speak and understand them all?

 

[Wannabee]

Why not the linguistic part? Do you think we'll only speak one language in heaven? Why not speak and understand them all?

I thought everyone knew we would all speak Hebrew.

 

[Christusregnat]

Also, it is a matter of Confessional teaching that the Jews will be converted after all of the nations are (see the Catechisms). Here's a passage discussing as much:


Adam

Could you elaborate on this more?

More proofs and more quotes? This is fascinating.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 10:22:18 EST-----

If some of every tongue, tribe and nation will be before the throne and if we will keep our identities in heaven, it appears that nations, tongues and tribes might exist forever.

Pergs,

The Confessional bit is as follows:

Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?

A. In the second petition, (which is, Thy kingdom come,[1222]) acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan,[1223] we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed,[1224] the gospel propagated throughout the world,[1225] the Jews called,[1226] the fullness of the Gentiles brought in;[1227] the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances,[1228] purged from corruption,[1229] countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate:....

The citations for the Gentiles and Jews bit are as follows:

[1226] Romans 10:1. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

[1227] John 17:9, 20. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. Romans 11:25-26. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Psalm 67. God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations. Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah. Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us. God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.

Paul's teaching in Romans 11 is not unique to him; if read in the context of the Prophets' teaching, it becomes increasingly clear that God would reject Israel, then call the Gentiles, and then recall the Jews. This is latter-day-glory postmillenialism.

The Isaiah passage that I mentioned deals with it, but if you read the Minor Prophets, it's everywhere. Here is one instance that may be particularly appropriate:

Amos 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. 9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. 11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

This is an exact parallel of Romans 11, where the Jews are rejected and judged, then the Gentiles are called, culminating in the millenial glory: the covenant blessings on all nations, and then the Jews being recalled, and receiving the covenant blessings, along with the Gentiles. Once you have eyes to see this, it is all over the prophets, and in the NT. Also, it helps to explain why the NT passages dealing with doom and gloom, and a small remnant are not talking about the general state of the church, but only the time of God's sifting of the people of Israel and transitioning to the Gentiles.

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Pergamum]

millenial glory?

 

[Christusregnat]

millenial glory?

I was referring to this:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

This is the rolling back of the curse of Adam by the blessing of Christ (He comes to make His blessing flow, far as the curse is found.. far as the curse is found). It is parallel to Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26.

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Deuteronomy 28:1-14;

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Leviticus 26:1-13;

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Pergamum]

Is this starting to happen now, or do we need to wait for a future Golden Age before these things begin?

 

[Jon Lake]

Why not the linguistic part? Do you think we'll only speak one language in heaven? Why not speak and understand them all?

I thought everyone knew we would all speak Hebrew.

LOL Nice!

 

[Pergamum]

I think Augustine ponders this linguistics question in the City of God. I think he voted Hebrew for the Pre-Fall Adamic language,but not sure how old Gus voted for the Language of Heaven.

 

[Jon Lake]

I think Augustine ponders this linguistics question in the City of God. I think he voted Hebrew for the Pre-Fall Adamic language,but not sure how old Gus voted for the Language of Heaven.

I would not mind speaking Hebrew....writing it...another story! Oi Vey!

 

[YXU]

Is this starting to happen now, or do we need to wait for a future Golden Age before these things begin?

I think the 1000 years reign will not start until the fall of the antichirst, the conversion of the jews as well as the fulness of the gentile. We are probably somewhat in a time waiting for the great battle between the true religon and all sorts of false religon. Definitely,all those things are before the coming of Christ.

 

[Pergamum]

I thought that the millennium had already started. Any way to incorporate all that other stuff into my "1,000" years of inter-advental time?

 

[Christusregnat]

Is this starting to happen now, or do we need to wait for a future Golden Age before these things begin?

James quotes the passage as applicable in his day (see Acts 15); I take it to be a process of providential history, much like the decline from Adam to a generations after him. As the curse spread gradually, so the blessing spreads gradually; as a mustard seed grows.

Cheers,

Adam

-----Added 12/4/2008 at 03:07:08 EST-----

Is this starting to happen now, or do we need to wait for a future Golden Age before these things begin?

I think the 1000 years reign will not start until the fall of the antichirst, the conversion of the jews as well as the fulness of the gentile. We are probably somewhat in a time waiting for the great battle between the true religon and all sorts of false religon. Definitely,all those things are before the coming of Christ.

XY,

First, congrats on having a two letter name. My parents got me down to four.. but TWO??!!

Second, as stated above, the Apostle James quoted Amos's prophecy of the golden age as applying to the calling of the Gentiles in his day. Not to a far distant age. The great whore has already been judged, and the kingdom has already been taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. No stone was left upon another, and the shadows have come to an end.

Also, as I mentioned above, the pattern of the Prophets and of Paul is:

1. Rejection of the Jews
2. Call of the Gentiles, until their fulness is brought in
3. Call of the Jews

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Stomata leontôn]

Also, it is a matter of Confessional teaching that the Jews will be converted after all of the nations are (see the Catechisms). Here's a passage discussing as much:

Israel already converted, beginning 33 AD. That's how the spread of the Gospel began.

When Gentiles were grafted into the vine, believers in Christ intermarried whether they had been previously Jewish or not. Christians were one people of God. There has only ever been one people of God. There is only one way to salvation.

"Ethnic Israel" was extinct by 300 AD.

That's why there are four main ethnic groups today that are genetically unrelated but each of which calls itself "Jews." None of them is. The same thing happened with Egypt which is now Arab: the current Arab residents call themselves "Egyptians" even though they are not. This is just a simple historical fact, the Arabs invaded Egypt and displaced the natives. Ancient Egypt no longer exists. Likewise, Assyria long ago ceased to exist.

There is no prophecy that could foretell what is going to happen to nations that no longer exist.

But whatever one's ethnic group, when the Lord comes again to judge, there will be no second chance to believe on him -- unless his death and resurrection were not efficacious the first time around. Can God fail?

There is no "Israel" to convert. It already did. This started the Church. That's why the Church today is Israel -- literally. Christ really did fulfill the promises of the Old Testament.

 

[Christusregnat]

When Gentiles were grafted into the vine, believers in Christ intermarried whether they had been previously Jewish or not. Christians were one people of God. There has only ever been one people of God. There is only one way to salvation.

"Ethnic Israel" was extinct by 300 AD.

Why does the catechism teach us to pray for the conversion of the Jews if it already happened. "Dear God, I pray that Saul of Tarsus will be converted." What a silly prayer.

Cheers,

Adam

 

[Stomata leontôn]

When Gentiles were grafted into the vine, believers in Christ intermarried whether they had been previously Jewish or not. Christians were one people of God. There has only ever been one people of God. There is only one way to salvation.

"Ethnic Israel" was extinct by 300 AD.

Why does the catechism teach us to pray for the conversion of the Jews if it already happened. "Dear God, I pray that Saul of Tarsus will be converted." What a silly prayer.

Cheers,

Adam

He converted. A long time ago. And now we have them excellent epistles!!

 

[Christusregnat]

When Gentiles were grafted into the vine, believers in Christ intermarried whether they had been previously Jewish or not. Christians were one people of God. There has only ever been one people of God. There is only one way to salvation.

"Ethnic Israel" was extinct by 300 AD.

Why does the catechism teach us to pray for the conversion of the Jews if it already happened. "Dear God, I pray that Saul of Tarsus will be converted." What a silly prayer.

Cheers,

Adam

He converted. A long time ago. And now we have them excellent epistles!!

Exactly! We do not pray for things that are past to take place. This is why the conversion of the Jews is yet future:

Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?

A. In the second petition, (which is, Thy kingdom come,[1222]) acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan,[1223] we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed,[1224] the gospel propagated throughout the world,[1225] the Jews called,[1226] the fullness of the Gentiles brought in;[1227] the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances,[1228] purged from corruption,[1229] countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate:[1230] that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted:[1231] that Christ would rule in our hearts here,[1232] and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever:[1233] and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.[1234]

Notice that we are called to pray for the conversion of the Jews. If you do not do this, you are not praying as you ought. I realize you are Anglican, but this is a confessional matter.

Cheers,

Adam