Yet another free will question...

[Phil D.]

Everyone has freedom of choice to act according to their nature. Whereas an unregenerate person will always choose to rebel against God and his righteous laws (according to his sin-nature), a regenerate person in made a new creation whereby they will, solely by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit, choose to become a follower of Christ, and more and more put to death the remnants of the old sin nature .

 

[moral necessity]

And so, the man is led to cry out, as is Romans 9, "why have you made me like this?" When our theology leads us to ask this question, I think we're on the right track.

But there's the rub: I don't think we should be asking this question---that's the point. I will give glory to God when I do good, I thank Him for the strength and grace to live day to day. I cannot, however, assign to Him the blame or responsibility for my sinful actions. I and I alone am responsible for those, which is why I cry out for mercy that God would change my heart.

I know it's the rub. We tend to evaluate credit and blame only to those who have 2 options available to them. Yet, we don't do that with God. We praise him for being good, and yet that is the only option at his disposal. His only choice available is good, as he is unable to will evil. And so, if blame cannot be attributed to those who do not have the option to choose good, then how is priase attributed to God if he has no option to choose evil? And yet it is the most honorable thing, to praise God. And so, blame can equally be ascribed to one who cannot choose to do good. Satan is deserving of hell, and yet he can only do evil. Good is not an option for him, as his will is powerless to go in that direction.

God does make vessels of wrath, who have no choice in the matter, and are powerless to choose their way out of it, according to Romans 9:19-20. And the very question comes up, "why does he still find fault then, for who resists his will?" The question of blame and responsibility is here answered in regard to the will of the creature being determined. The answer Paul gives is not reassuring the man that he could have chosen otherwise, but rather that he is an evil vessel, and therefore is deserving of wrath. Our human reason will not accept this, and in our attempt to satisfy human reason, we conjure up the notion of reward and blame only rightly being assigned to those who could have chosen otherwise. Reward and blame are properly assigned, however, according to the nature of the vessel. Evil vessels are rightly judged as evil vessels, and honorable vessels are rightly judged as honorable. Freedom of choice has absolutely no connection at all to reward, blame, or responsibility. This verse here in Romans shows that, for blame and responsibility is not dependent upon a free will. This is what a compatable view is, that the will is not free, and yet man is responsible. Our choices are voluntary (ie. we volunteer them), but our will is determined.

Anyway...here's an interesting article: Reformation Theology: Compatibilistic Determinism
The guy points out that the words "free will" have no place with the compatiblistic view. See what you think.

Blessings and fellowship!

 

[Philip]

We praise him for being good, and yet that is the only option at his disposal.

No it isn't---He is constrained by His nature, not His natural abilities. Is God not free to do as He pleases? Doesn't He have options? Could He have chosen to make the world other than it is if He had so pleased?

And so, if blame cannot be attributed to those who do not have the option to choose good

But we all do. The unregenerate man always has the option to choose good---he just ignores it.

The guy points out that the words "free will" have no place with the compatiblistic view. See what you think.

He's quibbling over words. The very definition of compatibilism is the view that humans are free moral agents and yet their choices are determined. Again, freedom of will is just the ability to do what you want.

Your will is determined by you---your character, the person you are, determines your choices through the instrument of the will.

 

[moral necessity]

[He's quibbling over words. The very definition of compatibilism is the view that humans are free moral agents and yet their choices are determined. Again, freedom of will is just the ability to do what you want.

Your will is determined by you---your character, the person you are, determines your choices through the instrument of the will.

I agree with a free moral agency, just not a free will. There is a difference. I guess we just don't click on this one, brother. Luther refers to the will as a horse being ridden and controlled by his rider, namely God. This is from Bondage of the Will. I'll assume you don't agree with this either.

Blessings!

 

[NB3K]

OK this is where I stand on Evil Sin and Satan, and all that is in the world.

First I am not brave enough to ascribe my evil thoughts,deeds, and being to the Holy. Just, & Righteous, One True God of the Bible. But I am stupid to think that Evil and Sin just happened by chance and that Adam could of by his own strength in his unfallen state continued in his original state. Paul states in Romans 9 what if GOd desired to show His wrath and make known his power, and we know from the Pharoah account that God has desired to make known His power through the administration of His wrath.

Secondly, God is the Creator. As His creation we are subjected to the good pleasure and purpose of His will. Proverbs 19:21 states very clearly that many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Then we have King Nebuchadnezzar declaring in Daniel 4:35 "all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"". Also Job describes the authority God has over how He can treat even those who are called by His name are treated Job 2:10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. Also take careful note to the end of that verse, " In all this Job did not sin with his lips."

If God desired before the foundations of the world to show an elect group of people the immense power He has in creating human being for the sole purpose of destroying them to help eleivate the praise of His glory for having mercy on a group of humans which are just as evil as the ones God purposed to destroy. Than God is perfectedly Righteous and Just.

This is why it is so crucal to have the knowledge of God as the Creator. SO by default, because God is the Creator. God can and Scripture proves that he does whatever He pleases from heaven and on earth. WHo can stay God's hand??? Who can charge GOd with injust? NONE! It's because we are the clay he formed and continues to form to His desired purpose. And that desired purpose is to glorify Himself in ALL THINGS good & evil. Here is another question for us to ponder on, how does the evil creature dictate to the Holy, Righteous, and Just God what is Good & what is Evil?

My conclusion is we do not know enough to say either or about evil. But we can say since we know that God is Sovereign in all things, that if God did not want what we percieve to be evil in this world then it would not be here. This is why we all the more should shudder in fear of the Lord because His ways are not like our [Man's] ways.

If anything can be charged it would be this:

God is unjust for allowing His creation to continue in their evil ways and not punishing us at the gate. BUt we would never charge injustice upon GOd in a manner that brings the human race under absolute condamnation. Most people think of GOd as the Redeemer and this is why they think it would be unjust for GOd to do anything but save man.

 

[Philip]

God is unjust for allowing His creation to continue in their evil ways and not punishing us at the gate.

God does this. God is not unjust. Ergo, God is not unjust in withholding punishment for a time.

I guess we just don't click on this one, brother. Luther refers to the will as a horse being ridden and controlled by his rider, namely God.

But unless we can be said to have some sort of control over our actions (even if we as persons are conditioned), we cannot be said to be responsible moral agents. In ordinary speech, "free will" and "free agency" are the same, even if the breakdown that Luther gives says differently. Most people, when they hear "free will" hear "freedom of the human person."

First I am not brave enough to ascribe my evil thoughts,deeds, and being to the Holy. Just, & Righteous, One True God of the Bible. But I am stupid to think that Evil and Sin just happened by chance and that Adam could of by his own strength in his unfallen state continued in his original state. Paul states in Romans 9 what if GOd desired to show His wrath and make known his power, and we know from the Pharoah account that God has desired to make known His power through the administration of His wrath.

But the question is how Pharaoh is deserving of God's wrath. In what way is Pharaoh responsible for his evil deeds? I agree that God brought it about that Pharaoh would fall, but it was Pharaoh who would not let the people go. We cannot limit ourselves in a kind of knee-jerk way to saying "our actions are predestined and therefore not free" because that simply leads us to the conclusion that we are not responsible for them. Instead, we must affirm a) that our actions are free and responsible b) that nonetheless God is able to and has decreed them.

 

[NB3K]

But the question is how Pharaoh is deserving of God's wrath. In what way is Pharaoh responsible for his evil deeds? I agree that God brought it about that Pharaoh would fall, but it was Pharaoh who would not let the people go. We cannot limit ourselves in a kind of knee-jerk way to saying "our actions are predestined and therefore not free" because that simply leads us to the conclusion that we are not responsible for them. Instead, we must affirm a) that our actions are free and responsible b) that nonetheless God is able to and has decreed them.

Exo 4:11 Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Here again we do not see that anything is attributed to Pharoah, but God's will & God's purpose. This is also the apostle Paul's thinking when he qouted Exodus in ROman's 9
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

I am completely in line with Paul's theology in God being the cause of all things.

Here is a youtube qoute from a fellow servant in the case against free will,

MrNickKane
13 hours ago When an external source controls all the options, it's time to acknowledge, you aren't free. I wonder how anyone can admit they are DEAD in trespasses and sin or in bondage and admit that Christ came to save them from their sin and then cry out that while they are in bondage, dead and in need of saving, they were free the whole time. The more I think about it. The weirder it gets. If you were truly "free" you wouldn't have needed a Savior. Now, THAT, makes sense.
MrNickKane
13 hours ago One more thing, I will believe in "free-will" when someone can show me by Scripture, that a man can inherit the kingdom of God apart from Jesus Christ through the exercise of their free-will. At this point the devout defender will have to admit...that man does not have that choice. When an external source gives you the choice to do or die. Or in this case, accept or be destroyed. It becomes delusional to think that you have a "free-will" option

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[NB3K]

BY the way the analogy of the human will be as a horse and its rider is from Augustine, and not Luther. Read Calvin's Institutes I think it is Book 2 Chapter 4???

 

[NB3K]

Brad nailed it. We are free, but we are limited in our ability. The unregenerate man is dead, so despite all of his freedom, he is unable to seek God. He must be made alive.

So what about all the affirmations in the Bible that says we are not free? Do you think if God can impute Christ's righteousness on His sheep who are called by His name, then also can he impute guilt as a natural process of His Divine Power. Because while men commit vile and wretched acts, it is only because they are bound by the path that the Almight has directed them.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Lam 3:1 I am the man who has seen affliction under the rod of his wrath;
Lam 3:2 he has driven and brought me into darkness without any light;
Lam 3:3 surely against me he turns his hand again and again the whole day long.
Lam 3:4 He has made my flesh and my skin waste away; he has broken my bones;
Lam 3:5 he has besieged and enveloped me with bitterness and tribulation;
Lam 3:6 he has made me dwell in darkness like the dead of long ago.
Lam 3:7 He has walled me about so that I cannot escape; he has made my chains heavy;
Lam 3:8 though I call and cry for help, he shuts out my prayer;
Lam 3:9 he has blocked my ways with blocks of stones; he has made my paths crooked.
Lam 3:10 He is a bear lying in wait for me, a lion in hiding;
Lam 3:11 he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces; he has made me desolate;
Lam 3:12 he bent his bow and set me as a target for his arrow.
Lam 3:13 He drove into my kidneys the arrows of his quiver;
Lam 3:14 I have become the laughingstock of all peoples, the object of their taunts all day long.
Lam 3:15 He has filled me with bitterness; he has sated me with wormwood.

And Job 12

Job 12:1 Then Job answered and said:
Job 12:2 "No doubt you are the people, and wisdom will die with you.
Job 12:3 But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you. Who does not know such things as these?
Job 12:4 I am a laughingstock to my friends; I, who called to God and he answered me, a just and blameless man, am a laughingstock.
Job 12:5 In the thought of one who is at ease there is contempt for misfortune; it is ready for those whose feet slip.
Job 12:6 The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand.
Job 12:7 "But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
Job 12:8 or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you.
Job 12:9 Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this?
Job 12:10 In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.
Job 12:11 Does not the ear test words as the palate tastes food?
Job 12:12 Wisdom is with the aged, and understanding in length of days.
Job 12:13 "With God are wisdom and might; he has counsel and understanding.
Job 12:14 If he tears down, none can rebuild; if he shuts a man in, none can open.
Job 12:15 If he withholds the waters, they dry up; if he sends them out, they overwhelm the land.
Job 12:16 With him are strength and sound wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are his.
Job 12:17 He leads counselors away stripped, and judges he makes fools.
Job 12:18 He looses the bonds of kings and binds a waistcloth on their hips.
Job 12:19 He leads priests away stripped and overthrows the mighty.
Job 12:20 He deprives of speech those who are trusted and takes away the discernment of the elders.
Job 12:21 He pours contempt on princes and loosens the belt of the strong.
Job 12:22 He uncovers the deeps out of darkness and brings deep darkness to light.
Job 12:23 He makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away.
Job 12:24 He takes away understanding from the chiefs of the people of the earth and makes them wander in a pathless waste.
Job 12:25 They grope in the dark without light, and he makes them stagger like a drunken man.
Lam 3:16 He has made my teeth grind on gravel, and made me cower in ashes;


I want to be with you guys on this but there is just too much clearly plain language in these passages of Scripture to think that way.

 

[Philip]

Jason, you are missing the force of my argument.

Here again we do not see that anything is attributed to Pharoah, but God's will & God's purpose.

So then can Pharaoh say to God on the day of judgment, "I bear no responsibility for my action since you were the one who hardened my heart and made me keep the Israelites enslaved. I sinned because it glorified you and I had no will in the matter."? Absolutely not, for Pharaoh sinned of his own volition, hardened by the absence of God's restraining hand.

I am completely in line with Paul's theology in God being the cause of all things.

Does God cause moral evil? Does God cause us to sin?

One more thing, I will believe in "free-will" when someone can show me by Scripture, that a man can inherit the kingdom of God apart from Jesus Christ through the exercise of their free-will.

I believe that we choose to believe in Christ of our own free will because the Holy Spirit regenerates our ground motives and affections so that we will choose to follow Him of our own free will.

The weirder it gets. If you were truly "free" you wouldn't have needed a Savior. Now, THAT, makes sense.

You need a savior because you had a debt that you couldn't pay back. What imputation does is to place that burden upon Christ and to place the credit for Christ's righteousness upon you. This in no way contradicts the fact that a) you did make a decision to follow Christ ("choose this day") b) you were not coerced into making that choice. No one was holding a gun to your head, you were simply presented with the Gospel, found yourself believing it, and decided to follow through and act upon that belief.

This in no way negates the fact that it was the Holy Spirit working in you to produce affections that would lead you to choose to follow Christ.

If I might be permitted a quote from my own work on Anselm's view:

Anselm distinguishes between three senses of the term as normally used: the instrument of willing, the affection of the instrument, and the use of the instrument. G. Stanley Kane rephrases these senses as “the faculty, or capacity, or power of willing, the disposition or inclination to will, and the act, or the exercise, of the power to will.” Therefore, the will, in a technical sense, is an instrument of decision, a faculty which decides to act upon a particular affection, or set of affections (desires or inclinations, ground motives). Other uses of the term in ordinary speech refer to the functioning of this faculty or influences upon it. Thus, for Anselm, when I say “I will do this” I am simply saying that I have used my faculty of will to decide upon a course of action. Or, if I claim to be “willing” to do something I am claiming that I am predisposed to use my will to choose that course of action, should someone ask me.

So what do we mean by “freedom” in reference to the will? Anselm first considers the idea, recurrent through much of church history, that freedom of the will is “The power to sin or not to sin.” However, he rejects this, saying “if this were its definition, neither God nor the angels, who are unable to sin, would have free will, which is impious to say.” As noted above, Anselm is clearly operating on the assumption that freedom is something possessed both by God and man, and thus if a definition includes anything that one or the other is incapable of, then it must be rejected. Instead, Anselm offers the idea that “A will that cannot fall from rectitude into sin is more free than one that can desert it.” Later, he goes on to define freedom further as, “the capacity for preserving rectitude of the will.” In other words, freedom of the will is the natural ability to do right. While man, because of the fall, is unable to exercise this freedom, he still possesses it in a basic sense.

 

[Reformed Roman]

Our will is never free. It's either corrupted by sin or being spurred onto holiness. All the while even when we are regenerated you still have sin tugging at us as well. So we have so many things that influence our decisions, that our will is never free. We find freedom when we are saved, yes, but the freedom to follow after Christ, and not complete freedom (until glorification)

 

[Philip]

Our will is never free. It's either corrupted by sin or being spurred onto holiness. All the while even when we are regenerated you still have sin tugging at us as well. So we have so many things that influence our decisions, that our will is never free. We find freedom when we are saved, yes, but the freedom to follow after Christ, and not complete freedom (until glorification)

You're touching on two different subjects here: the first is metaphysical freedom, or freedom to do as you please within your natural limits (which, of course, you have), but the other is moral freedom---freedom from sin and freedom unto righteousness. This the Christian has imperfectly and the unregenerate not at all.

 

[NB3K]

The choices we make are the result of either God hardening or having mercy on us. The evil we do is only there because of Sin. If God leaves us alone in our sin, then he hardens us. We may do all kinds of wickedness and God is not responsible for those certain acts that we commit, but He is the cause. IF He leads us down crooked and desolite paths than we follow accordingly. God is no way obligated to leads us by His grace. He can bring us in to exisitance and keep us in darkness for the day of judgment if He so pleases, and He can regenerate us and lead us on the path of righteousness too.

---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

I am going to stay with Calvin on this one. He & Pink are the teachers that I have been learning from on this matter of God's Sovereignty in ALL things.

 

[Philip]

God is not responsible for those certain acts that we commit, but He is the cause.

Explain exactly how God can cause something without taking credit for it.

This is my question, Jason: are you a free and responsible agent or are you not? I take God's sovereignty here as a given, but the question remains.

I am going to stay with Calvin on this one. He & Pink are the teachers that I have been learning from on this matter of God's Sovereignty in ALL things.

I don't disagree there---I just happen to think (with Calvin, Edwards, etc) that humans are free and responsible moral agents. We make real choices and are responsible before God for those choices. Again, this in no way negates God's sovereignty, but unless we wrestle with how it can be that humans have freedom of will and yet God is still sovereign over that will, we cannot understand the real complexity that surrounds this issue.

Here is a question, Jason: in what way does God have freedom of will?

 

[Reformed Roman]

Things always influence our choices. So in the sense the worlds talks, we never have "free will". That's all I was stating.

This is something I've always struggled with as well. I can't go further then talking about the freedom of salvation on this topic.

 

[Philip]

Things always influence our choices. So in the sense the worlds talks, we never have "free will". That's all I was stating.

In the sense of ordinary speech we do---you are held accountable by law even if someone influenced you to commit a murder (of course that person would still be accountable). To use examples from literature, Othello and Macbeth were free in their acts of murder even though they were spurred on by Iago and Lady Macbeth. They are still rational agents who are not being coerced---these are, therefore, free and responsible acts under law.

 

[NB3K]

While I cannot answer all the questions as how God works all the kinks in how GOd works all things after the counsel of His will, I know Job proclaimed that everything that happened to him was all from God, and the Bible says he did not sin when he said that. I am going to be just like Job. Who among the inhabitants of the world can resist God? Even if God allows something to happen it must be in His will. God says he covers Himself in darkness, and if He does not shine forth light then His creation stays in darkness, and there will be nothing but Evil. In this manner God creats Evil, because He holds back the light of His grace. If God gives people over to Satan, than those people are doomed. God is so great that anything that is compared to Him is utter evil. If God is to show His glory and majesty to us, as vessel's of mercy, than there must be evil. How can there be a judgment seat without evil? How can their be mercy given to Elect Sheep, unless there is evil to show mercy? How can God be merciful & gracious and unless there is evil? It is apart of His design to show the riches of His glourious grace.

---------- Post added at 07:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 AM ----------

I am evil. I am responsible for my actions, but at the same time I am only walking according to the path that God has directed me. Whatever I want to do I can only do it if it is according to tthe purpose of the Lord.

God is so powerful and great that our minds cannot comprehend His works. As Calvin has rightly said, "The human mind is retarded to the things of God."

 

[Philip]

I am evil. I am responsible for my actions, but at the same time I am only walking according to the path that God has directed me. Whatever I want to do I can only do it if it is according to tthe purpose of the Lord.

What, then, shall you sin more that grace may abound? You seem to be arguing not for Divine sovereignty, but Divine fatalism. Has God foreordained all? Yes. Do we still act freely and responsibly before Him? Yes.

God is so great that anything that is compared to Him is utter evil.

Ah, so why did God call His creation good? Can't you see that you are defaming the name of God? I agree that evil glorifies God in some ultimate sense that I cannot fathom, else He would not have permitted it, but to say that the created order is evil plainly contradicts the Scriptures. For God is not evil and evil is no part of His nature, therefore nothing that He creates is evil, though it may fall. Evil is not a mere absence, but a twisting and perversion---a cruel parody of goodness.

The trouble, Jason, is that you are seeing only one half of the picture.

 

[NB3K]

Would you say that God looks down upon His creation and still deems it to be good? Because Jesus says to the rich young ruler that none is Good but God.

---------- Post added at 09:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------

So then God only has the authority over me THAT I GIVE HIM???? WOW! I am not free! I am either a slave to sin and satan or a slave to Christ and Righteousness!

---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------

Were the people that crucified Christ acting as free moral agents or were they be directed by the Almighty Omnipotent God during the most heinus sin that could have ever taken place. Or were they acting according to their nature? In what way were they free? What about the cannintes were they free? Or were they created to be destroyed by the hand of God?

 

[Philip]

Would you say that God looks down upon His creation and still deems it to be good?

No, because it has fallen from that state of goodness in which it was created.

Were the people that crucified Christ acting as free moral agents or were they be directed by the Almighty Omnipotent God during the most heinus sin that could have ever taken place. Or were they acting according to their nature?

Yes.

In what way were they free?

In the ordinary sense.

What about the cannintes were they free? Or were they created to be destroyed by the hand of God?

Yes.

The trouble, Jason, is that you assume that the two are mutually exclusive.