Tithing? Friendly thoughts and questions

[TomVols]

I have wrestled with tithing for a long time. As I see it, there are pro and con arguments (yeah, I realize this is not the best way to describe it) for the teaching that Christians must give 10% of their income:

PRO:
Jesus praised it; It predates the church and was practiced by Abraham, etc.; It is nowhere rescinded; it provides a means of ministry finance
CON:
It is NOT commanded in the NT, rather, give whatever you purpose freely and out of grace; the tithe was part of a tax system; it is not commanded in NT; it is regressive/oppressive to the poor.

Setting aside the weak regressive/oppressive argument, I see the strengths of the pro and con arguments. That leads me to observe and ask the following:

It seems the 1 Cor 16 passage was talking about a special offering and not a means of regular ministry finance. Thoughts?

The idea of "Just give as the Lord leads" brings a whopper of a subjectivistic problem. Thus, the $500k a year lawyer who gives $1k a year to his church is fine because he feels he is being generous, and no one can call him on it. After all, who are we to say what he thinks is generous? Thoughts?

However, the tithe crowd is forced to say the 100k a year banker is sinning if he gives $9,999 and not $10,000. So one buck deficit is a sin?
And those who argue that tithing is abrogated still seem to find their way back to saying 10% is a good standard. That just seems totally arbitrary and a de facto command.

Again, looking for thoughts and discussion. Light and not heat. Fire away, but let the flame be on low

 

[Peairtach]

Tithing is a general equity principle or rule of thumb from the Patriarchal era and Mosaic ceremonial law.

The fact that even when tithing was a legal obligation alongside freewill offerings, not everyone in the OT Church was required to tithe and of those who were required to tithe, not all were required to give the full tithe, shows that it would be going beyond even the OT data to say that all Christians must tithe at all times in their lives.

Those who were to tithe under the Mosaic law, were those who had crops, orchards and/or livestock. People like fishermen or tentmakers didn't tithe.

Of those who had animals, those who had less than ten or a number of animals that did not constitute a multiple of ten gave less than a full tithe to the temple.

Lots of people can tithe and should tithe, and some could easily give more, but going by the biblical data, it is a helpful principle by which to think about giving, rather than a moral obligation.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Stephen L Smith]

alongside freewill offerings

Richard, you wrote previously that unscriptural views of the Regulative Principle of Worship can lead one away from true worship into worldliness. Likewise you should not mention 'freewill offerings'. This could lead someone away from Calvinism into a Free will theology.

 

[Peairtach]

Very dry wit Our own Confession has a whole chapter on Free Will which is worth perusing.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[TomVols]

Peairtach thank you for your reply. I do have a couple of questions:

People like fishermen or tentmakers didn't tithe.

how do you know this?

those who had animals, those who had less than ten or a number of animals that did not constitute a multiple of ten gave less than a full tithe to the temple.

scripture?

Lots of people can tithe and should tithe, and some could easily give more, but going by the biblical data, it is a helpful principle by which to think about giving, rather than a moral obligation

Who are the "lots of people who should tithe" ? Where is the biblical evidence suggesting this? This entire sentence seems contradictory. I mean this with all gentleness and friendliness. As I stated in the op those who argue that tithing is not required but argue that it still should be practiced in some way by some or all do so without much Biblical proof prima facia. To argue it is a principle still requires something that is lacking in evidence. One could say that one can sacrifice a dove to show their sorrow for their sins of the past week as a principle though not necessary.

Thank you my friend

 

[Logan]

those who had animals, those who had less than ten or a number of animals that did not constitute a multiple of ten gave less than a full tithe to the temple.

scripture?

I think that one is just logic since you can't give decimal values of sheep. A person who owns 7 sheep wouldn't tithe 0.7

Now whether that person rounds up or down, I don't think Scripture speaks to.

 

[jambo]

It is a personal thing but you should give generously and also according to your means. Jesus commended the widow for her 2 coins which was a lot less than what others have out of their wealth yet the 2 coins were of greater value to Jesus as they were given sacrificially.

I would give what you feel is right before the Lord and not Concern yourself with what others do.

 

[Jack K]

Allow a few comments from a guy who hasn't studied the particular issue enough to comment directly on the requirement to tithe...

- As Stuart pointed out, the issue of how much others ought to give is an interesting academic one but not the main way believers ought to be thinking. We dwell on the log in our own eye.

- When considering what we should give, or how we should live any part of the Christian life for that matter, any attempt to determine the minimum requirement and aim for that is bound to be too-small thinking.

- Christians are not to be overly-careful accountants. Although tithing may be a good practice, it will carry dangers: The tither may consider his tithe and feel superior to others, or be tempted to boast, or move toward self-righteousness. That's no excuse to be lax about giving, but it's a good reason not to overthink the math. It's important to be habitually generous and "not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

- The vast majority of us who live in the prosperous West can afford to give far more than 10% of our incomes to the Lord's work and to the relief of suffering of our brothers and sisters elsewhere in the world. Why are we not eager to do so? This should be a far more consuming question for us.

 

[chuckd]

10% is a good guide to support ministers. Some may require more or less. Though it's clear all of the money God has given us should be used faithfully.

 

[KMK]

Tithing is a general equity principle or rule of thumb from the Patriarchal era and Mosaic ceremonial law.

Exactly. The most important part of the general equity of the tithe is that giving should be regular and systematic. Use the 10% as a guide to establish a regular pattern of giving. How can a church pay its regular and systematic obligations without regular and systematic revenue?

 

[TomVols]

Mild point: I think Logan's point illustrates that logic is often more prevalent here than Scripture. However, it is not mere semantics. Since the Bible is inspired, the OT commands about certain tithes are just that. We can argue accounting about less than pure percentages, but the Bible leaves that as unhelpful. So either the tithe means "tenth" or it does not. I don't know of anyone who argues it means something else.

To those who reiterate the "Just give whatever you want" argument, I'd ask: doesn't this lead to subjectivism in terms of personal definitions of what is sacrificial and what is not? No one has yet to address the hypotheticals I proposed.

 

[TomVols]

Jack, this is nowhere about comparison....just a defining of a principle/precept. As much as we like to claim giving is an individual thing, that never ends up being the case and I can illustrate this in a few minutes.

When considering what we should give, or how we should live any part of the Christian life for that matter, any attempt to determine the minimum requirement and aim for that is bound to be too-small thinking.

This is not the question on the floor, so to speak, but rather the breadth of the issue. I think even the most ardent pro-tithers would say that the person who wants to avoid 10.1% and use 10 as a way to curry favor with God has missed the mark.

- Christians are not to be overly-careful accountants. Although tithing may be a good practice, it will carry dangers: The tither may consider his tithe and feel superior to others, or be tempted to boast, or move toward self-righteousness. That's no excuse to be lax about giving, but it's a good reason not to overthink the math. It's important to be habitually generous and "not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

In a day where stewardship is slipshot, I'd disagree with a truncated first sentence. However, in context I don't disagree with you. That said, take out tithing from your second sentence and replace it with evangelism, witness, worship, etc., and you have the same "dangers."

- The vast majority of us who live in the prosperous West can afford to give far more than 10% of our incomes to the Lord's work and to the relief of suffering of our brothers and sisters elsewhere in the world. Why are we not eager to do so? This should be a far more consuming question for us.

I don't disagree. That said, when God inspired holy Scripture, I think we might agree He had a plan of ministry finance in mind. That's what I'm macro-investigating with our discussion. Everyone seems to come back around to a tithe being praiseworthy even if not commanded with no Scriptural support for it. If that support is not there, then the mandate is not. but it seems no one, is willing to jettison a mandate for Westerners, rich, etc., despite having little else than logic as support. Again, I appreciate your input and hope there's more

 

[TomVols]

ChuckD/KMD, both of you praise a 10% as a guide. Why? What Biblical evidence is there to do so? This is one of my fundamental discovery attempts: the Biblical reason to use the tithe by those who claim it is no longer necessary. As I stated earlier, that opens the door to other things prima facia that are no longer binding.

Let me reiterate: I'm seeking answers to questions that seem to go unanswered, not to belittle or debate. Thanks everyone for your contributions and I hope to see more.

 

[Peairtach]

Peairtach thank you for your reply. I do have a couple of questions:

People like fishermen or tentmakers didn't tithe.

how do you know this?

those who had animals, those who had less than ten or a number of animals that did not constitute a multiple of ten gave less than a full tithe to the temple.

scripture?

Lots of people can tithe and should tithe, and some could easily give more, but going by the biblical data, it is a helpful principle by which to think about giving, rather than a moral obligation

Who are the "lots of people who should tithe" ? Where is the biblical evidence suggesting this? This entire sentence seems contradictory. I mean this with all gentleness and friendliness. As I stated in the op those who argue that tithing is not required but argue that it still should be practiced in some way by some or all do so without much Biblical proof prima facia. To argue it is a principle still requires something that is lacking in evidence. One could say that one can sacrifice a dove to show their sorrow for their sins of the past week as a principle though not necessary.

Thank you my friend

Leviticus 27:30-34 teaches about what is to be tithed and how livestock were to be tithed.

Sacrifice of animals is forbidden in the NT now that Christ has come, whereas, but we are still to give to the work of God's kingdom like our OT brothers, and we may need some guidance respecting that from God's Word.

I Corinthians 16:2 teaches that our giving is ordinarily to be in proportion to our income, although examples like the widow's mites, will remind that there may be times when we want to give everything we have for that week.

Unless we want to be in a place of total subjectivity with regard to what ordinarily the sort of proportion or proportions we are to give, as well as the fact we already know that ordinary weekly giving to Christ's cause and kingdom is related to ability to give, we have to refer to the practices of Abraham, Jacob, and OT brethren to give us further insight.

II Timothy 3:16.

"Perspectives on Tithing: Four Views" Editor David A. Croteau (B&H Academic, 2011) may be a helpful resource.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[TomVols]

Some have argued that Lev 27 is not the only teaching regarding the tithe but I don't see where fishermen are prohibited from tithing from this.

I agree that animal sacrifice is no longer necesssary. However, some mandate that the tithe is abrogated on similar grounds, albeit not identical.

Re: 1 Cor 16:2, some argue that this is not a directive for the ordinary financial support for the church, but a temporal teaching on how to collect for relief efforts in Jerusalem/Judean churches. A special offering if you will. Is it your belief that this is principle should be garnered from this, or that this is in fact the normative early practice of tithes/offerings?

I do think you and I have the same fear of subjectivity here. Which is why I'm asking for answers to questions that are rarely ever given, or at least asking for the rationale behind such answers. So, while there are some questions I've asked that have yet to be answered, I'll pose yet another one: are you saying that the tithe is not required but still should be practiced? In one sense I'm asking a rather black and white question. It has been, in former times, posited as a bit of a bifurcation. Either tithe or don't tithe. However, it seems many say the tithe is not binding/obligatory* (*but still try to give 10% or more just because) This is still being put forth. I'm just looking for the why. You are making an appreciated attempt at the why. I'm just looking for more clarification. Thank you my friend.

So my question still stands: if the tithe is not obligatory, why observe it at all? What about the believer who decides on 2%? 5%?

Thanks for the book recommendation. Though B&H is a little flaky, I'll give it a read

 

[Edm]

I personally chose to give 10% of earnings as a base. I often give more. I don't judge what others do. I will say...and I don't say this to sound kooky ...but when I give more, just because..I find that God blesses me tenfold what I gave.

 

[Peairtach]

The law of tithing has fallen, Tom. It was part of the Mosaic ceremonial law. But it was also practiced in the Patriarchal era, and just because the law of tithing has fallen it doesn't mean we can't learn anything from it in a discursive general equity way, when we still are commanded to give to the work of God's Kingdom.

After someone has tithed they are not to shut their fist against the poor, the widow, the fatherless, the sick, the brother in need. The symbolism in the tenth is that we are saying that not only the tenth belongs to God, but the other nine tenths, too.


Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[KMK]

ChuckD/KMD, both of you praise a 10% as a guide. Why? What Biblical evidence is there to do so? This is one of my fundamental discovery attempts: the Biblical reason to use the tithe by those who claim it is no longer necessary. As I stated earlier, that opens the door to other things prima facia that are no longer binding.

Let me reiterate: I'm seeking answers to questions that seem to go unanswered, not to belittle or debate. Thanks everyone for your contributions and I hope to see more.

1 Cor 9:11-14 1 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? *12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. *13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? *14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

In the Old Economy, one tribe out of 12 (Levi) was not given an inheritance but was given the tithe of the other 11. The Levites were then to tithe to the High Priest. This meant that the Levites, who were charged with the ministry, earned 100% of the average of everyone in their community. They were not the least nor the greatest, but average. Paul says 'even so' has the Lord ordained that Gospel ministers make their living as well.

It is not a perfect simile but it is one of the reasons I look at the tithe as a guide.

 

[ProtestantBankie]

The Lord has given me a small amount of money to look after - I am greatly relieved that since I am so weak and inadequate for the great task of Christian stewardship that least 10% of it is something I can account for very well!

It's what I do with the other 90% that concerns me.

I remember a preacher pointing out that the Sabbath although it is one day in seven, yet it may be considered a tenth. For there are 168 hours in a week - and on the Sabbath we are awake for around 16 or 17 of them. (Based on 7-8 hours of sleep). But we have worship and piety the rest of the week too - as much as we can give, and confess we cannot give what we ought!

 

[chuckd]

ChuckD/KMD, both of you praise a 10% as a guide. Why? What Biblical evidence is there to do so? This is one of my fundamental discovery attempts: the Biblical reason to use the tithe by those who claim it is no longer necessary. As I stated earlier, that opens the door to other things prima facia that are no longer binding.

Let me reiterate: I'm seeking answers to questions that seem to go unanswered, not to belittle or debate. Thanks everyone for your contributions and I hope to see more.

I praise 10% because it seems to support my minister and church well so he is not required to seek supplemental income.

 

[Peairtach]

We learn from these OT administrative moral-positive laws in a different way to the moral law.

It takes a while to "get your head round" learning general and basic principles from laws that were more diectly addressed to the OT Israelites.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[TomVols]

Peairtach......thank you for discussing. Again, you and agree macroscopically to an extent. KMK also is making sound attempts to engage. However, questions of application are being missed. So let me pose it again for all:

The lawyer who earns $500k per year. He gives $5k per year to his church and another 5k to para church ministries. 2% of his income. 10k to kingdom work. Is he following biblical teaching on giving?

Now, what if he makes 200k? He's now giving 5%. Is he following biblical teaching now?

Thanks for humoring me

 

[Peairtach]

If you are a member in full communion with Christ's Church, you presumably believe that Christ's cause and kingdom is the most important thing in the world.

Giving nothing on a regular basis, or a token gesure on a regular basis is not consonant with this. But it's between him and God based on the general equity of God's Word.

It's a freewill offering informed by all that Scripture has to say about giving to God's kingdom.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[TomVols]

So the two scenarios are token gestures and this not biblically practiced? Or are both biblical because they've presumably arrived at this level based on self examination and conviction?

 

[TomVols]

Oh.....read that book last night. Tell you more a bit later. It leaves a lot of the same questions unanswered as these threads often do

 

[Peairtach]

Well there's all you need in God's Word to teach you how to give and how much to give:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (II Timothy 3:16)

 

[TomVols]

I agree. Now as to application of 2 Tim 3.16, I'd appreciate your answer to my question please. Thank you my friend

 

[whirlingmerc]

Abraham tithed and that was before the law. Abraham's tithing is reported but not allot of explanation why he did it or how it applies
except that tithing precedes Moses law somehow

There would be a number of issues of tithing in addition to Abraham's tithing and I tend to leave them to individual conscience.
But I agree a tithe is a good rule of thumb

Two more issues are 10% of what and given to who... some insist gross, some not so sure... I'm not willing to insist on that and leave it to conscience
Some insist it all goes tot he local church... probably a wise decision for planning, but I leave it as a matter of conscience how a person divides their giving

Also Not all monetary blessings are gross,
assets increases in value... assets decrease in value... taxes vary.... bills vary...
one might have assets that they no longer need or have unexpected needs...
generosity may be subjective but it's a good rule

 

[KMK]

The lawyer who earns $500k per year. He gives $5k per year to his church and another 5k to para church ministries.

I think there is more biblical support for tithing than there is for parachurch ministries. You accept the one and not the other. Why?

 

[TomVols]

The lawyer who earns $500k per year. He gives $5k per year to his church and another 5k to para church ministries.

I think there is more biblical support for tithing than there is for parachurch ministries. You accept the one and not the other. Why?

Where did I say that? I'm not asking about what the storehouse is etc. I'm speaking of giving macroscopically. What is or is not the "storehouse" (cf Mal 3) is not what I've addressed heretofore. I only brought up that figure just for illustrative sake. If you like, take it out and say $10k to church. But look at my prior posts. I just say "give" w/o reference to where.

Im happy to talk about the "storehouse" concept separately.