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Guest
Hi everyone, what are your thoughts on unsaved musicians playing in the service? Thanks!
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J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Junior
Absolutely not ok. Besides a whole host of theological issues pertaining to worship, it is practically inadvisable at best. Look up what happened to First OPC of San Francisco back in the late 70s/ early 80s.
retroGRAD3
Puritan Board Senior
I don't think there should be any performances of any kind during a church service, Christian or otherwise.
Jonathco
Puritan Board Sophomore
Music is one of the areas I specifically oversee at our church. Not only must they be a believer, we hold that one must be a member of the church to serve as a musician. Beyond that, as a shepherd, I also want to meet with any potential musician and understand their heart for serving in this manner, before they become involved in our music ministry.
More than musical talent, I want to know that each musician who joins us has a proper heart toward worship.
More than musical talent, I want to know that each musician who joins us has a proper heart toward worship.
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ZackF
Puritan Board Doctor
Uh, no. I’ve never understood that as anything but showmanship. Unbelievers in the choir?
Now if the local piano tuner is an unbeliever, he can be used.
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
I think it's one of the worst worship practices one can do in the interests of "excellence" rather than faithful worshippers in your own context. Whatever one's view on musicians in worship, putting unbelievers in this situation is completely unwarranted. Absolute worst case, plug an ipad or iphone into a speaker system and play the tune from the Trinity Psalter Hymnal or Book of Psalms for Worship (the BPW's instrumentation implementation is much more robust, which is quite amusing when you think about it) before having unbelieving musicians in the service Even more perish the thought of the singers being that.
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Guest
Thanks everyone, appreciated.
To be clear, I’m also of the view that it’s never okay. Quite apart from EP and/or RPW issues, in a context where a local church does make use of musicians or a choir in worship they’ve got to be Christian!
To be clear, I’m also of the view that it’s never okay. Quite apart from EP and/or RPW issues, in a context where a local church does make use of musicians or a choir in worship they’ve got to be Christian!
Ploutos
Puritan Board Graduate
I 100% agree with what Theoretical said. Having an unbeliever stand in front of the congregation in any sort of capacity is a horrid affront to the Lord and to the congregation. Musicians, if you have any (don't get me started on the topic of paid church staff...), should be members of the church in good standing, and both the musicians and the music should be subject to the same scrutiny as the leaders of the church and the content of the sermon. I'm not an advocate of confessional membership, but elders and deacons are held to a higher standard, and musicians who participate in worship should be held to a stricter standard than ordinary members. And all the content of any musical selection - offering, solo, congregational song or hymn - needs to be vetted to make sure that it is totally in accord with the confessional standards of that church.
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Deleted member 6112
Guest
In the Scriptures, only Levites play instruments in the service. The Levitical system having ended, the instruments went away, just like the altars and the incense.
So, I'm as much against unbelievers playing instruments in the service as I am unbelievers sacrificing animals or burning incense in the service.
J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Junior
Gotta keep the patchouli at home, man.
michael_topple
Puritan Board Freshman
I'd like to hear this at some point...
Ploutos
Puritan Board Graduate
Don't hold your breath.I'd like to hear this at some point...
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
So you all don't believe in using the worship service for evangelical outreach through preaching the gospel to non-believers?
LightBringer
Puritan Board Freshman
Bad idea In my humble opinion.
You mean preaching to an unbeliever by asking HIM to lead YOU in the worship of the God you profess? What sort of witness is that?
J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Junior
Bold statement, Edward!
Worship is inherently evangelical. The gospel is the basis for our worship, and it is all for the glory of God. However, I would not invite unbelievers to distribute the elements of the Lord's Supper. I would not invite unbelievers to lead Sunday school. I would not invite unbelievers to be the treasurers of the church. I'd invite them to sit in the pew and to hear the message preached and observe the liturgy before them. I'd invite them to submit to Christ and be a part of our church family.
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Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
I don't think of someone blowing a horn or sawing on a violin as 'leading worship'
Are you going to vet the musicians who recorded the music? And what about an interim category if the musicians are in another room with a microphone and loudspeakers are used to get the music into the main auditorium?
And how do the 'no's plan to test for that. You all don't think all the members of the congregation are saved, do you? I do understand you can ask if they are saved, and the ones that say 'no' are easy to classify. But I would think that those would be outliers. And there are probably unelect folks that would say yes - but that really doesn't prove anything.
J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Junior
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Senior
Seems like a win-win. Outreach to unbelievers as they are forced to play your music and sing your lyrics. Having them print and give out bulletins is another win. Lightens load on your own members as well.
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Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Just trying to goad people into thinking through the issue instead of knee jerking. This is certainly not an issue our brothers and sisters in non-instrumental bodies have to deal with.
And I put questions about theological orthodoxy of horn players, fiddlers, and guitar strummers that don't open their mouths to preach or teach against a deacon I knew that got 4 years for sexual assault (not church related) or an elder I knew that got 7 years for wire fraud (church related) that most naysayers here would have been happy to have up in front speaking until someone complained. (Not to mention a deacon at First Pres Jackson Mississippi who I never met who went to prison for (to my understanding) embezzlement and fraud (but who probably also got away with murder) Looks like the New York Times ran that story in 1983.
You may not think it that, but what does the unbeliever think, and what does the world think to see the church pay those dead in sin to join in worship of the God they hate and spurn in their daily lives?
Ploutos
Puritan Board Graduate
The abuse of a situation does not change what's right and wrong. Your argument has been used in favor of (among other things) women in ministry as well. Anybody who is involved in a worship service in any sort of such role automatically has a degree of influence in the church and that person needs to be carefully vetted. That properly ordained ministers and deacons have been guilty of misconduct doesn't change this.
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J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Junior
Thanks for responding, Edward. My initial response wasn't knee-jerk at all. I've seen the sad reality of unregenerate musicians in churches firsthand. I used the San Francisco OPC example as that is a relatively widely known story with an extreme outcome.
Don't get me wrong. It isn't just the outwardly unregenerate who cause problems in the life of the church by their undue integration. What you've shared is truly heartbreaking, and God will have to vindicate his church in the last day before all men. As JP said, however, such abuses by vetted persons doesn't negate what is proper. What is proper is having professed Christians who are set in their station by the governing body of the church according to God's word.
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Senior
Allowing outsiders in a church where our children roam freely is a choice
Northern Crofter
Puritan Board Junior
The issue is that the former (unconverted musicians) could not be members and therefore would not be eligible for Church discipline should it be required. The latter examples you provided (deacons involved in various sins) would be subject to discipline so, yes, I "would have been happy to have [them] up in front speaking until someone complained." I don't see any knee jerk reactions - the reactions convey a dedication to Church order being protective of the Church's reputation. The world needs to see that we as a community of redeemed sinners are not sinless and yet we deal with sin when it arises within the body.
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Ploutos
Puritan Board Graduate
This is a really insightful post, especially that last sentence.
Alive in Christ
Puritan Board Freshman
I don't even see how this can even be a thing. Song service is ministry, right? So they should be church members with a good testimony.
Let me also add that not only should they be church members, but mature believers. I have personally seen on more than one occasion what happens when an immature church member is elevated into a position of ministry. Satan goes after them hard. At my former church, we had a song service leader fall into fornication and had to be removed from the church. On another occasion we had an outreach member relapse into alcoholism, and he had to be sat down and removed from ministry. Placing an immature Christian into a position of ministry is very unloving - you are essentially slapping a bullseye on their back.
Let me also add that not only should they be church members, but mature believers. I have personally seen on more than one occasion what happens when an immature church member is elevated into a position of ministry. Satan goes after them hard. At my former church, we had a song service leader fall into fornication and had to be removed from the church. On another occasion we had an outreach member relapse into alcoholism, and he had to be sat down and removed from ministry. Placing an immature Christian into a position of ministry is very unloving - you are essentially slapping a bullseye on their back.
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This doesn't follow at all. Of course we invite unbelievers to a worship service. That does not mean we invite them by having them play music for it.
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