Church Super Bowl Parties can Continue...lovely

[Theoretical]

Church 'Super Bowl' Fesitivities May Go On

This story would be hilarious if it wasn't so ridiculous (which I'd say even the non-Sabbatarians here would agree with). Charging admission to a church super bowl party - have they no shame????????? Not even counting the propriety or non-propriety of such an endeavor privately, can we at least agree that this is absurd for the church itself to be doing?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Absolutely!

 

[Pergamum]

A few years back I got invited to a Super Bowl party and when I said I didn't want to go, they asked why.

So I said that this had no place in the church.


I tried to be irenic, but they actually scoffed at me.


The next morning, he winced when I asked him how many Sunday school kids saw Janet Jackson's boob in the church auditorium.

 

[turmeric]

The next morning, he winced when I asked him how many Sunday school kids saw Janet Jackson's boob in the church auditorium.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Super Bowl in RTS?

Hay:

About 2 years ago I was in conversation with a student at RTS Orlando who said he attended a SuperBowl party of some unsaved friends, "because I wanted to evangelize them."

I said to him that a better witness would have been to be absent and in Church praying for them. Consequently, when they asked why he was not there - he then would have an opening to talk to them about God.

He did not agree with me and steadfastly maintained that he was invoking a "common grace" ministry.

I think he wanted a "godly" excuse to watch the game.

Blessings,

-CH

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I'll be going to a Superbowl gathering tomorrow at the Officer's Club...it begins here at 8 am local on MONDAY.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Why not? Church is about entertainment and what is more entertaining than the Super Bowl, even the commercials are an event, I think the church could learn something from corporate America.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I'll be going to a Superbowl gathering tomorrow at the Officer's Club...it begins here at 8 am local on MONDAY.

(shhh, don't tell street preacher!)

 

[Semper Fidelis]

(shhh, don't tell street preacher!)

I have to admit that I've always enjoyed gathering together with friends to watch the SuperBowl in the past. I think the PB might have changed me as I haven't lived in the States since then. I've never watched a SuperBowl party at Church though but usually go over to others' homes.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Sabbatarianism is not legalism

Hay:

From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or Lord's day to be sanctified?

A. The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercies of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

Q. 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly thoughts and recreations.

Watching the SuperBowl is a "worldly recreation" and, may be lawful on other days, but is a sin to do on the Lord's day.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Watching the SuperBowl is a "worldly recreation" and, may be lawful on other days, but is a sin to do on the Lord's day.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

Well I am going to sin tomorrow.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Well I am going to sin tomorrow.

Travis,

Even if you only mean to be saying this in disagreement with the principle, this kind of speaking is very foolish.

If you agree that it is a sin, then don't come on this Board announcing your volitional rebellion against God.

If you disagree that it is a sin then say so.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Travis,

Even if you only mean to be saying this in disagreement with the principle, this kind of speaking is very foolish.

If you agree that it is a sin, then don't come on this Board announcing your volitional rebellion against God.

If you disagree that it is a sin then say so.

Actually I find it is a very truthful statement on my part since tomorrow I will no doubt offend in both thought and deed.

I do think that condemning someone for watching a sporting event late in their day of rest is very legalistic.

I think it is on par with the media fasts imposed by some charismatic churches.

I know that George Whitfield despised the theater even as a former actor, perhaps especially as a former one but does anyone here think that going to the theater or watching films in and of itself is wicked?

Certainly there are events that are not the best use of time and of questionable content that one can remain guarded against but gathering with fellow believers at a home long after corporate worship has been observed and enjoying a football game together is not an offense to the sabbath.

 

[Theoretical]

Travis,

Even if you only mean to be saying this in disagreement with the principle, this kind of speaking is very foolish.

If you agree that it is a sin, then don't come on this Board announcing your volitional rebellion against God.

If you disagree that it is a sin then say so.

to Rich's point. I'm someone more convicted about the Sabbath, though not even close to where I'd like to be in terms of practice , but one should not dismiss another's assertion that even something you consider adiaphora would be sin so lightly. While one can make fairly good non-Sabbatarian arguments, that attitude is either being flippant or willfulling broadcasting a future sinful action (from your perspective).

I certainly am not the best follower of the Sabbath myself, particularly in line with my growing convictions on it, but I have old habits and practices I am actively working to break and replace with new ones. in my opinion, for a convicted Sabbatarian who was raised in a VERY non-Sabbatarian way, it is one of the toughest commands to follow, just because so much is ordinary habit that must be replaced.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Actually I find it is a very truthful statement on my part since tomorrow I will no doubt offend in both thought and deed.

Who, God? Is He the One you will no doubt offend?

 

[Theoretical]

Actually I find it is a very truthful statement on my part since tomorrow I will no doubt offend in both thought and deed.

I do think that condemning someone for watching a sporting event late in their day of rest is very legalistic.

I think it is on par with the media fasts imposed by some charismatic churches.

I know that George Whitfield despised the theater even as a former actor, perhaps especially as a former one but does anyone here think that going to the theater or watching films in and of itself is wicked?

Certainly there are events that are not the best use of time and of questionable content that one can remain guarded against but gathering with fellow believers at a home long after corporate worship has been observed and enjoying a football game together is not an offense to the sabbath.

As to your point on the theater, Abraham Kuyper in Lectures on Calvinism does at least make a very compelling case against it, from history. At the very minimum, whether or not you accept his reasoning, it is not a silly legalist argument. I've quoted the portion below from the Kuyper Foundation Online Edition of [Lectures on Calvinism

Entirely different objections were entertained against Theatre-going. In itself there is nothing sinful in fiction–the power of the imagination is a precious gift of God Himself. Neither is there any special evil in dramatic imagination. How highly did Milton appreciate Shakespeare's Drama, and did not he himself write in dramatic form? Nor did the evil lie in public theatrical representations, as such. Public performances were given for all the people at Geneva, in the Market Place, in Calvin's time. and with his approval. No, that which offended our ancestors was not the comedy or tragedy, nor should have been the opera, in itself, but the moral sacrifice which as a rule was demanded of actors and actresses for the amusement of the public. A theatrical troop, in those days especially, stood, morally, rather low. This low moral standard resulted partly from the fact that the constant and ever-changing presentation of the character of another person finally hampers the moulding of your personal character; and partly because our modern Theaters, unlike the Greek, have introduced the presence of women on the stage, the prosperity of the Theater being too often gauged by the measure in which a woman jeopardizes the most sacred treasures God entrusts to her, her stainless name, and irreproachable conduct. Certainly, a strictly normal Theater is very well conceivable; but with the exception of a few large cities, such Theaters would neither be sufficiently patronized nor could exist financially; and the actual fact remains that, taking all the world over, the prosperity of a Theater often increases in proportion to the moral degradation of the actors. Too often therefore Hall Caine in his “Christian” corroborated once more the sad truth–the prosperity of Theaters is purchased at the cost of manly character, and of female purity. And the purchase of delight for the ear and the eye at the price of such a moral hecatomb, the Calvinist, who honored whatever was human in man for the sake of God, could not but condemn.

One last note, don't be so quick to write off Sabbatarianism as mere adiaphora or worse, as pure legalism, because there are very strong theological arguments many throughout history would make. Even if you don't adopt as strict a form as some Puritan expressions were; nonetheless, don't discount the strict convictions so flippantly.

Christian liberty cuts both ways, and charity towards those with much stricter convictions than you is in order.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

As to your point on the theater, Abraham Kuyper in Lectures on Calvinism does at least make a very compelling case against it, from history. At the very minimum, whether or not you accept his reasoning, it is not a silly legalist argument. I've quoted the portion below from the Kuyper Foundation Online Edition of [I]Lectures on Calvinism[/I]



One last note, don't be so quick to write off Sabbatarianism as mere adiaphora or worse pure legalism, as there are very strong theological arguments many throughout history would say. Even if you don't adopt as strict a form as some Puritan expressions were, nonetheless, don't discount the strict convictions so flippantly. Christian liberty cuts both ways.

His reasoning has merit for someone who has a crisis of identity and does not hold to Christ, you see it today still, but to argue that escapism has no place as an art or entertainment is absurd. You must condemn most of literature and any facet it spawned (content wise you would have an argument but to do so at the cost of annihilating a treasure trove of wonderful writing that does not condone humanistic virtues).

A believer can create works of fiction and allegory for the stage, book or screen and not be consumed by it, dare I say even do it to the glory of God.

To observe the sabbath as a day of rest and corporate worship and to ponder about the scriptures is marvelous and adhered to by genuine believers but if they turn on their television before nightfall and take in a football game before bed I do not recognize the offense anymore than I do a Christian artisan choosing to be in the world as a writer or actor but not of the world.

Why are there book reviews and movie reviews on this board if this is the case?
Should we be on the internet at this hour for it is early Sunday for us Americans?

 

[Archlute]

Hey, gents, check this out. I've got my head so far in my seminary studies (as well as the fact that we don't have cable at our place), that I didn't even know the Super Bowl was happening tomorrow until I read this thread!

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Hey, gents, check this out. I've got my head so far in my seminary studies (as well as the fact that we don't have cable at our place), that I didn't even know the Super Bowl was happening tomorrow until I read this thread!

Awesome, you haven't missed much, I hardly watch TV myself.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

One last note, don't be so quick to write off Sabbatarianism as mere adiaphora or worse pure legalism...

That's a very good point. There is a small little thing called the Fourth Commandment after all. Now, if one is under the opinion that the Sabbath has been completely fulfilled with the advent of Christ then it is one thing (and an argument unto itself). If one believes that it is a Creation Ordinance and reflects the holy character of God and is part of the moral law then you really need to be careful.

There are two pits that one can fall into when it comes to the commands of God:

1. Calling someting unlawful that God has called indifferent.
2. Calling something indifferent that God has called lawful.

If you admit that the Sabbath is, in any way, binding upon men then you need to really determine where that command begins and ends before you accuse someone of adding to God's commands.

If the Sabbath is binding in a way that we find indifferent, then we are no less offending God than a man who finds lust indifferent when it comes to Adultery.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Missing the point

Travis:

You miss the point. Notice the boldface in my quote:

...but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;

Watching the SuperBowl, going to a movie, seeing a play are all lawful activities - on days other than the Lord's Day. (Well, maybe some movies and plays are not lawful). These things are "worldly recreations" and are not lawful to do on the Sabbath of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God gives us one day of rest from our cares, our business and our recreations so that we may devote ourselves to Him. Isn't that wonderful? Why would you want to ruin such a thing by placing your own luxury first?

Grace and Peace on this Sabbath day,

-CH

 

[Me Died Blue]

Travis, would you say there are even any thoughts, actions or practices that you would consider to be lawful all other days of the week, but unlawful on the Lord's Day?

I certainly am not the best follower of the Sabbath myself, particularly in line with my growing convictions on it, but I have old habits and practices I am actively working to break and replace with new ones. in my opinion, for a convicted Sabbatarian who was raised in a VERY non-Sabbatarian way, it is one of the toughest commands to follow, just because so much is ordinary habit that must be replaced.

I can greatly relate to this, Scott. Shortly after becoming convinced of Sabbatarianism, what kinds of ways did you initially find yourself trying to take joy in it and consistently practice it?

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Travis, would you say there are even any thoughts, actions or practices that you would consider to be lawful all other days of the week, but unlawful on the Lord's Day?



I can greatly relate to this, Scott. Shortly after becoming convinced of Sabbatarianism, what kinds of ways did you initially find yourself trying to take joy in it and consistently practice it?

I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion.

The day is a time that God promises to meet with us and all the Saints of history in communion and worship but to briefly kick up your feet and take in a movie, sport, conversation or book that is of an escapist nature is forbidden on your day of rest?

 

[Theoretical]

Travis, would you say there are even any thoughts, actions or practices that you would consider to be lawful all other days of the week, but unlawful on the Lord's Day?



I can greatly relate to this, Scott. Shortly after becoming convinced of Sabbatarianism, what kinds of ways did you initially find yourself trying to take joy in it and consistently practice it?

More than anything, it was extreme frustration with having good motives and then acting against my conscience, as I had been doing for years before ever really knowing of "Sabbath Theology". Even before I'd ever studied it, it just seemed wrong to do ordinary work or recreation on the Lord's Day, but did that mean I was in any way, shape or form following my convictions? No .

I'm currently now struggling a lot to implement things, but I've started fixing fairly low-effort breakfasts for friends who go to church with me, while we listen to the latest White Horse Inn episode. In the evenings, I'm starting to do the same with dinners and other Christian friends - again, going for the fairly simple, and trying to foster good attitudes of fellowship. I'm trying to do Scripture reading, edifying podcast listening, or theological study in the afternoons. These are my goals, and I'm getting there slowly. By far, the toughest part is making sure logistically that I don't have to go shopping on Sunday for food for myself or others, and I'm still not good about following that all of the time. I promise you, I am much worse at actually following these guidelines and developments than what I've listed - I have so far to go.

As for actually taking joy in it, I'm only barely seeing much outright joy in following this day of rest, especially given that my hardest and longest day of classes is Monday this term, and I've also developed really bad procrastination habits that need to be killed .

Nonetheless, I believe it is a Scriptural command, and I do believe I will be granted more rest and joy with obedience to this command and the pangs of conscience, regardless of whether or not I feel like following my convictions on the matter. How I am spiritually feeling on Sunday does not ever relieve my duty to honor Him and this Commandment.

 

[Me Died Blue]

I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion.

The day is a time that God promises to meet with us and all the Saints of history in communion and worship but to briefly kick up your feet and take in a movie, sport, conversation or book that is of an escapist nature is forbidden on your day of rest?

The aspect of communal, corporate worship is indeed the "highlight" of the day if you will, which is a good thing to recognize. But the problem with that you're saying about the rest of the day is that if there are in fact no practices that are unlawful during that time but lawful the rest of the week, then beyond the corporate worship service, there is absolutely no difference between it and any of the other days whatsoever; and in that conception of it, the remainder of the day beyond corporate worship is really not a day of rest in any sense, any more than any other day.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

The aspect of communal, corporate worship is indeed the "highlight" of the day if you will, which is a good thing to recognize. But the problem with that you're saying about the rest of the day is that if there are in fact no practices that are unlawful during that time but lawful the rest of the week, then beyond the corporate worship service, there is absolutely no difference between it and any of the other days whatsoever; and in that conception of it, the remainder of the day beyond corporate worship is really not a day of rest in any sense, any more than any other day.

It is a day of rest free of the aggravations of work and toiling in worldly affairs but even Christ asserted not to ignore pressing matters on the sabbath so it could well be interupted by the world.

I do take Sunday off as a time to recharge and rest, it is usually one of the lone times of fellowship and recreation afforded to many believers as well.

What is your opinion of Saturday sabbath holders (some genuine Christians adhere to such and not just SDA)? Are they wrong for holding that day sacred but not Sunday?

I look to Christ to fulfill the law perfectly, I don't understand how I can perfectly honor the day of rest as you prescribe here.

Do I need to read and discuss apologetics the whole day? Sing hymns in the shower and refrain from any escapist thoughts or conversation not emphasizing the sermon of the day? What standard is there for me, has Christ not come to fulfill what I cannot possibly satisfy?

 

[beej6]

<snip> Certainly there are events that are not the best use of time and of questionable content that one can remain guarded against but gathering with fellow believers at a home long after corporate worship has been observed and enjoying a football game together is not an offense to the sabbath.

Perhaps the attitude behind your statement "...long after corporate worship has been observed..." is an excellent argument for an evening worship service. But even if your church doesn't observe this, it doesn't remove the command of sanctifying the entire day to God. (Unless you believe as Owen apparently did, that the day was from sunup to sundown.)

 

[beej6]

I imagine that anything you'd be ashamed of doing on your day of rest should probably not be taken up on any other occasion./QUOTE]

This is backwards logic. I'm ashamed of many things I do. The question is what's permissible on Monday is not necessarily so on the Lord's Day.

The day is a time that God promises to meet with us and all the Saints of history in communion and worship but to briefly kick up your feet and take in a movie, sport, conversation or book that is of an escapist nature is forbidden on your day of rest?

You have to admit, unless you watch the Super Bowl on a DVR, there's nothing brief about it.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Perhaps the attitude behind your statement "...long after corporate worship has been observed..." is an excellent argument for an evening worship service. But even if your church doesn't observe this, it doesn't remove the command of sanctifying the entire day to God. (Unless you believe as Owen apparently did, that the day was from sunup to sundown.)

How is it that you sanctify the day, being on the internet itself appears as though an indulgence of worldly recreation has been done or is it justified by being a Reformed message board?

 

[caddy]

"Priceless"

with a negative spin !

A few years back I got invited to a Super Bowl party and when I said I didn't want to go, they asked why.

So I said that this had no place in the church.


I tried to be irenic, but they actually scoffed at me.


The next morning, he winced when I asked him how many Sunday school kids saw Janet Jackson's boob in the church auditorium.