Is there a point when a Christian should seriously consider leaving the United States? Infanticide, Sodomy, increased perversions of every stripe are growing rapidly. The Pilgrims left England when put under spiritual duress so there is a reformed heritage of leaving paganized lands. If you think a Christian should consider leaving where would they go?
When do we leave America?
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ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
There's the problem!
Brother.............you just asked the million dollar question! Where to go! My own opinion is to stand and fight the good fight until the Lord makes his will clear we should leave..........or the Enemy runs out of tricks and we see the true Church in Victory and our Lord taking over "management" of a still fallen world.
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tellville
Puritan Board Junior
Personally, if I were to flee to another land, I would go to the States! It is probably the most friendly place to Christians that I know of! It all goes down hill from there 
Then again, I would also possibly go to a Christian part of India. Generally, people keep to their own religion there, and in a state where most people are Christians you probably won't have too many problems. But if your leaving the States purely because of the "paganess", well, India is by far more "pagan" as a whole
Or, if you are intent on fleeing, become a missonary somewhere, like India or Indonesia!
Then again, I would also possibly go to a Christian part of India. Generally, people keep to their own religion there, and in a state where most people are Christians you probably won't have too many problems. But if your leaving the States purely because of the "paganess", well, India is by far more "pagan" as a whole
Or, if you are intent on fleeing, become a missonary somewhere, like India or Indonesia!
PastorFaulk
Puritan Board Freshman
Side comment- did not the pilgrims flee from religious persecution only to fall into that trap in the states? I think being in a place of persecution would be great, the church grows under persecution.
I agree with those that said there is no place to go.
The pilgrims did come here but that was in no way a Biblical mandate, just something that God had for them at that time.
If GOd wants some or many Christians to leave the US then He will give them some place to go.
So far I haven't seen anywhere to go.
The pilgrims did come here but that was in no way a Biblical mandate, just something that God had for them at that time.
If GOd wants some or many Christians to leave the US then He will give them some place to go.
So far I haven't seen anywhere to go.
turmeric
Megerator
Pastor, with all due respect I cannot imagine "wishing" we were in a place of persecution....that is a bit like saying I wish I had cancer to test my faith. The Church sometimes does grow under persecution, however it begs the question.....is it that ideal, is it the wish of our Heavenly Father that we remain in a static state of persecution.........
PastorFaulk
Puritan Board Freshman
Its really a choice of either or. Was the church better off before Constantine or after? Is the persecuted church stronger, or the American church? Religious liberty is a wonderful thing, but it drives Christian complacency.
Always? Have there not been periods of growth in relative peace? Have there not been concurrent periods of Aposty and Persecution, Church History says yes. In general I agree with you Pastor, I just want to avoid "broad strokes", the Church grows when God wills it.
I don't think its possible to say that "staying is morally superior" OR that "leaving is morally superior," as if the answer were the same for everyone in all circumstances. There were many who left Jerusalem, and Judea, and were scattered, but some stayed.
If I had been living in the days of the Massachusetts Bay (not Plymouth) or one of the other Colonies, I might well have been inclined to leave for the new world. I'm sure it felt "worth it" for the sake of pure worship and for the sake of children. That being said, I don't think that one has to participate fully in the world, when they choose to stay.
For example, as beneficial as it might be as a pastor, to put my kids in a public school--in a small-town environment, to "be a part" of the community and build ties--there have to be better ways, if that school is a part of a larger system that actively attacks the Christian faith, if those teachers and administrators (however good their intentions) are bound by the terms of their employment to deny God, and if real discipline is absent.
So, is there really "no place" to go, anymore? I used to think so, until I stopped thinking like an American. Think about it: the early Colonists had similar thoughts. "How can I leave England, for someplace worse in so many ways?" They decided it was worth it, for a vision of what that frontier could become. And more, they transplanted "England" (New England) with themselves.
So, ask yourself if you are truly in love with principles and ideals, or simply the America of your youth, or your grandparents? There was a lot less freedom then, than at the beginning. When most people say "The US is the best/freest/greatest nation," etc., they usually mean that America has the highest standard of living that they know of. This, they reason, must be because we are so free. So, in other lands, the people must be generally poorer because they are oppressed. But that isn't always the case.
The other major reason why "we're the greatest," is attributed to the prevalence of the rule of law. But if federalism is dead, and the Constitution subverted, are we really under "the rule of law" or not? Or is that just another one of those slogans? If they want to, they can take away your property--eminent domain means whatever those in charge want it to mean. Right to life? Not after Roe v. Wade--privacy, a non-right, has been place over a right spelled out in plain text.
Are we a nation of law? LAWS, yes, enough to make us all lawbreakers every day, whether you know it or not. But not LAW, in the sense of fixed standards, "discovered" as it was once explained, or "derived" from continuity and conversation with the past. The LAW has been rendered wholly positive, and it means in the end, what 5 Supremes say it means.
So, if we are "freer", it is because there are residual echoes of the fixed standard. Those are fading like ripples in the pond. We are very close to the time when Caesar's word will make law once again. Even your RonPaulRevolution is likely nothing but a milepost on the way to despotism. Even if elected, his term would most likely mark the end of the American Experiment. "He stood for what it stood for at the beginning, like a bookend."
So, may I suggest that whether you stay or go, you should have in mind the Kingdom of God and Christ, to which you belong. You can follow the increasing dictates of tyranny here, or go abroad in search of greater freedoms, but also greater responsibilities. You might go as an official missionary, or as one of those "scattered abroad," a private citizen.
But in either case, you can let that little "subversive" inside you out. Go ahead, be defiant! No, I don't mean don't bother to get a Driver's License, or car insurance, not any of that kind of defiance. Far from it. No, I mean you can be involved in taking down Satan's order everywhere it is established. Take a stand for your true King, and suddenly you will find yourself freer than you ever have been. Even if you lose your life. And maybe your children and grandchildren will live in an earthly society that has felt the impact of godliness--if the King holds off in returning.
If I had been living in the days of the Massachusetts Bay (not Plymouth) or one of the other Colonies, I might well have been inclined to leave for the new world. I'm sure it felt "worth it" for the sake of pure worship and for the sake of children. That being said, I don't think that one has to participate fully in the world, when they choose to stay.
For example, as beneficial as it might be as a pastor, to put my kids in a public school--in a small-town environment, to "be a part" of the community and build ties--there have to be better ways, if that school is a part of a larger system that actively attacks the Christian faith, if those teachers and administrators (however good their intentions) are bound by the terms of their employment to deny God, and if real discipline is absent.
So, is there really "no place" to go, anymore? I used to think so, until I stopped thinking like an American. Think about it: the early Colonists had similar thoughts. "How can I leave England, for someplace worse in so many ways?" They decided it was worth it, for a vision of what that frontier could become. And more, they transplanted "England" (New England) with themselves.
So, ask yourself if you are truly in love with principles and ideals, or simply the America of your youth, or your grandparents? There was a lot less freedom then, than at the beginning. When most people say "The US is the best/freest/greatest nation," etc., they usually mean that America has the highest standard of living that they know of. This, they reason, must be because we are so free. So, in other lands, the people must be generally poorer because they are oppressed. But that isn't always the case.
The other major reason why "we're the greatest," is attributed to the prevalence of the rule of law. But if federalism is dead, and the Constitution subverted, are we really under "the rule of law" or not? Or is that just another one of those slogans? If they want to, they can take away your property--eminent domain means whatever those in charge want it to mean. Right to life? Not after Roe v. Wade--privacy, a non-right, has been place over a right spelled out in plain text.
Are we a nation of law? LAWS, yes, enough to make us all lawbreakers every day, whether you know it or not. But not LAW, in the sense of fixed standards, "discovered" as it was once explained, or "derived" from continuity and conversation with the past. The LAW has been rendered wholly positive, and it means in the end, what 5 Supremes say it means.
So, if we are "freer", it is because there are residual echoes of the fixed standard. Those are fading like ripples in the pond. We are very close to the time when Caesar's word will make law once again. Even your RonPaulRevolution is likely nothing but a milepost on the way to despotism. Even if elected, his term would most likely mark the end of the American Experiment. "He stood for what it stood for at the beginning, like a bookend."
So, may I suggest that whether you stay or go, you should have in mind the Kingdom of God and Christ, to which you belong. You can follow the increasing dictates of tyranny here, or go abroad in search of greater freedoms, but also greater responsibilities. You might go as an official missionary, or as one of those "scattered abroad," a private citizen.
But in either case, you can let that little "subversive" inside you out. Go ahead, be defiant! No, I don't mean don't bother to get a Driver's License, or car insurance, not any of that kind of defiance. Far from it. No, I mean you can be involved in taking down Satan's order everywhere it is established. Take a stand for your true King, and suddenly you will find yourself freer than you ever have been. Even if you lose your life. And maybe your children and grandchildren will live in an earthly society that has felt the impact of godliness--if the King holds off in returning.
Should we leave or should we stay? I think it really depends on the underlying desire of our heart? What are we fleeing from? Discomfort? Persecution? Can we find a Biblical precedent for this? It seems to me that Christ and his Apostles embraced persecution, not run from it. The other question is, what are we fleeing to? A more moral society? I don't think there is a single society on earth that could please God at all without the grace of God. A more comfortable society? Is following God all about our comfort or is it all about serving and glorifying him no matter what the circumstances? Or, are we fleeing to a calling of God to go and spread the Gospel to other parts of the earth? This is the only Biblical reason I can think of that we would have to flee America.
Calvibaptist
Dallas Cowboys' #1 Fan
Preach it Rev. Bruce!
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
The Republic of Ireland. The only republic that explicitly acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus Christ and where infanticide is illegal.
So, either Ireland, or the moon, or an isolated tropical island, or a sea colony on the bottom of the ocean.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
See ya! Let us all know how that works out for ya...
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Where are you going to go that isn't worse than here? Antarctica? Maybe evangelize some penguins? 
ServantOfKing
Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you for your post Rev. Buchanan!
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
The moon!
This argument has reformed precendent (Rutherford) but I don't think it is workable in a global village.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
While our blessed heritage allows for it, I have a few thoughts against it:
*how can we be "salt and light" when everyone in society is salt?*
That's not a refutation of the idea, but it makes the role of evangelism interesting.
*how can we be "salt and light" when everyone in society is salt?*
That's not a refutation of the idea, but it makes the role of evangelism interesting.
Freedom is more than just theory: the presence of laws means little when they are not enforced. That can be bad; but it can also mean that in a theoretically more oppressive country, you actually have greater freedom.
Having said that, if any country could make me feel comfortable around policemen, it would be Panama! I have never met nicer, friendlier law enforcement officials.
Having said that, if any country could make me feel comfortable around policemen, it would be Panama! I have never met nicer, friendlier law enforcement officials.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
I think you need to be careful with your idea of "reformed heritage" here. The Pilgrims were actually seperatists, not reformers. They bailed out on the church of England and started over in the wilderness. The Puritans stayed and fought the good fight until they eventually did reform the Church, as short-lived as it was. The Dutch and Scots stayed and suffered but conquered for a time. The French protestants stayed and fought until the persecution became too severe and the State threw them out. I would argue the stronger Reformed heritage is to stay and fight the good fight, stand strong for the gospel whether under persecution or in peace.
I think the problem here in America is that we have enjoyed our historical bubble of peace but now that bubble is popping. But really, we are just entering back into the fray which many churches are already fighting across the globe. Perhaps it will teach us how to fight again and make us fit Christian soldiers rather than tubby computer geeks.
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Calvibaptist
Dallas Cowboys' #1 Fan
More importantly, in all the writings of the NT where the apostles deal with how to handle government and society, I don't see any of them suggesting that you bail out in favor of a more "Christian" government. I see all of them saying "obey" and "pray for" your government and obey God rather than man, being willing to suffer with joy if it comes.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
While that is technically true, that is not a refutation of the idea. Arguments from silence are not the strongest form of argument.
Raj
Puritan Board Sophomore
The queen of Mughal king Jahangeer being influenced by the beauty and peace once said, "If there is heaven on earth, it is in Kashmir, it is in Kashmir". So brethern if you really have to leave your country think of this alternative.
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