Sports and Dancing

[Simply_Nikki]

I have to read this book for my senior capstone class about college politics. This week's topic is about sports. So... while reading the early development of sports in America I came across something that said:

"At American schools and colleges, games and contests of all sorts took a little longer to evolve. Early-ninetheenth-century American scholars, rooted in the Calvinist tradition thought playing sports was about as moral as dancing"

This was cited as being from a book called Muscular Christianity: Manhood and Sports in Protestant American by Clifford Putney on page 20.

Has anyone heard of this book or this author? Also what were calvin's true views on sports and dancing? Obviously I know he did not believe in taking part in these activies on the sabbath. But did he think participating in them were moral infractions?

 

[AV1611]

I would hope Calvin was against dancing and tolerant of 'innocent' sports in moderation.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Speaking to the issue of Puritans and sports, it must be remembered that many Puritans were punished for opposing King James I's Book of Sports, a book designed to promote sports on the Lord's Day. They also wrote against 'blood sports' (such as 'bearbaiting') and gambling. However, it would be a mistake to assume that the Puritans opposed all sports. There are many Puritans who wrote in favor of physical recreation, such as sports, while making distinctions such as avoiding the immoderate use of recreation/sports, emphasizing the proper time and place for such activities, and the proper goals, which would be to refresh the body and mind, promote godly values, etc. To give one example, here is William Perkins (quoted by I.D.E. Thomas, A Puritan Golden Treasury):

Games may be divided into three sorts: games of wit or industry, games of hazard, and a mixture of both. Games of wit or industry are such as are ordered by the skill and industry of man. Of this sort are shooting in the longbow, shooting in the caliver, running, wrestling, fencing, music, and the games of chess and draughts...These, and all of this kind, wherein the industry of the mind and body hath the chiefest stroke, are very commendable, and not to be disliked. Games of hazard are those in which hazard only bears the sway and orders the game, and not wit: wherein also there is, as we say, chance, yea mere chance in regard of us. Now games that are of mere hazard, by the consent of godly divines are unlawful. The reasons are these: First, games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion, in which we refer unto the God determination of things of moment that can no other way be determined...Secondly, such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow...Thirdly, covetousness is commonly the ground of them all. Whereupon it is that men usually play for money. And for these causes such plays...are unlawful. The third kind of plays are mixed, which stand partly of hazard and partly of wit, and in which hazard begins the game and skill gets the victory, and that which is defective by reason of hazard is corrected by wit...Now the common opinion of learned divines is that, as they are not to be commended, so they are not simply to be condemned, and if they be used they must be used very sparingly.

Leland Ryken (Worldly Saints, pp. 189-190) notes:

John Downame wrote that people should moderately partake of such pastimes as

walking in pleasant places, conferences which are delightful without offence, poetry, music, shooting, and such other allowable sports as best fit with men's several dispositions for their comfort and refreshing.[8]

[8] Christian Warfare [Foster, p. 106]. William Perkins wrote, "Rest from labour with the refreshing of the body and mind is necessary, because man's nature is like a bow, which being always bent and used is soon broken in pieces" (The Whole Treatise [Wagner, pp. 53-54]).

Ryken also mentions that the English Puritan Parliament of 1647 decreed that every second Tuesday of the month should be a day whereupon all businesses were closed to allow for the recreation of workers (Ibid, p. 190).

Bruce C. Daniels (Puritans at Play, pp. 165-167) notes:

By the end of the [16th] century, Puritans had become implacably opposed to ball and blood sports. They condemned them with the vehemence usually reserved for special evils such as theater or organ music. Puritans denounced these activities so heatedly and so often that the word "sport" to them came to mean ball games and bloody contests. Hunting, fishing, and martial competitions, of which they did approve, were defined out of the term. Hence, Puritan rhetoric seemed to condemn all sport, though in fact it did not.
...
Blood sports so obviously offend modern sensibilities that we have little difficulty understanding the Puritans' horror of them. Ball sports, however, are another matter. In the twentieth century, they appear innocent, even healthy, so the contempt they engendered in the seventeenth century is difficult to comprehend. It derived, however, not from the intrinsic activity of playing with a ball itself, but from what were regarded as the inevitable ancillary evils that accompanied ball playing and from the historical evils associated with it in England.

Hope this helps.

 

[VaughanRSmith]

"At American schools and colleges, games and contests of all sorts took a little longer to evolve. Early-ninetheenth-century American scholars, rooted in the Calvinist tradition thought playing sports was about as moral as dancing"

I'd agree with this statement. Dancing is as just as moral as playing sports. It's like saying "watering the garden is as moral as standing on one foot".

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I would hope Calvin was against dancing and tolerant of 'innocent' sports in moderation.

Yes, although you haven't gone quite far enough. I hope Calvin was against having fun!

 

[Pilgrim]

Yes, although you haven't gone quite far enough. I hope Calvin was against having fun!

I would laugh at this...if I knew the Puritans would.

 

[SRoper]

Josh, did you smile at that comment? Don't you know this is the Puritanboard? Please try to maintain a dour face.

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Yes, although you haven't gone quite far enough. I hope Calvin was against having fun!

I would laugh at this...if I knew the Puritans would.

Sorry, Calvin was not against having fun!
"We have never been forbidden to laugh, or to be filled, or to join new possessions to old or ancestral ones, or to delight in in musical harmony, or to drink wine." -- John Calvin, Institutes III:19.9

 

[bradofshaw]

I think the puritans were probably in favor of baseball, but would most likely frown upon the playing of the sport known as soccer.

 

[toddpedlar]

I think the puritans were probably in favor of baseball, but would most likely frown upon the playing of the sport known as soccer.

Rugby on the other hand...

 

[AV1611]

Dancing is as just as moral as playing sports.

The Westminster Divines disagreed with you (as do I)

Question 139: What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are...all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto; wanton looks, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel...lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays; and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.

Question 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are...immoderate use of...recreations...

 

[VaughanRSmith]

Dancing is as just as moral as playing sports.

The Westminster Divines disagreed with you (as do I)

Question 139: What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are...all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto; wanton looks, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel...lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays; and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.

Question 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are...immoderate use of...recreations...

Do you believe that the Westminster Divines were thought that all books were forbidden by the seventh commandment?

 

[AV1611]

Do you believe that the Westminster Divines were thought that all books were forbidden by the seventh commandment?

Check out the adjective "lascivious". The question is then, can dancing be anything other than lascivious to which I would reply "no". Mixed dancing is forbidden by the decalogue. As we are to be whiter than white and abstain from all appearance of evil we ought not to take part in any dancings whether mixed or not.

FYI: BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Church brands line-dancing 'sinful'

As for sports, those which tend to do harm to others would violate the sixth commandment and we ought not let them dominate our lives. As a form of recreation, fitness most sports would be fine though in my opinion.

 

[VaughanRSmith]

Do you believe that the Westminster Divines were thought that all books were forbidden by the seventh commandment?

Check out the adjective "lascivious". The question is then, can dancing be anything other than lascivious to which I would reply "no". Mixed dancing is forbidden by the decalogue. As we are to be whiter than white and abstain from all appearance of evil we ought not to take part in any dancings whether mixed or not.

Why then did the Westminster divines decide to brand "dancing" with the adjective "lascivious"? Why not just put "all forms of dancing"?

Westminster definitely does not side with you on this issue. You are going outside what the Catechism actually says. I submit that if you use Qn 139 to brand all kinds of dancing as "lascivious" then you must do so to all the other nouns in that phrase.

FYI: BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Church brands line-dancing 'sinful'

Thank God that David was not a member of the FPC in Northern Ireland.

 

[AV1611]

Why then did the Westminster divines decide to brand "dancing" with the adjective "lascivious"? Why not just put "all forms of dancing"?

They were condemning lascivious dancing. Question, what does lascivious mean? Well Thayer's Lexicon notes "wanton (acts or) manners, filthy words, indecent bodily movements" and "unchaste handling of males and females".

We are to abstain from that which is sinful (mixed dancing) and that which could cause others to sin (other forms of dancing).

Christians and Dancing Homepage.

Thank God that David was not a member of the FPC in Northern Ireland.

Are you seriously trying to argue that because the King of Israel, inspired by the Spirit of God, danced before the Ark of the Covenant in delight at God's presence being returned to Jerusalem we are able to engage in mixed dancing?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster says that all dancing is wrong; that position is unbiblical. Though this does not answer the question of whether or not mixed dancing is sinful.

 

[VaughanRSmith]

Why then did the Westminster divines decide to brand "dancing" with the adjective "lascivious"? Why not just put "all forms of dancing"?

They were condemning lascivious dancing. Question, what does lascivious mean? Well Thayer's Lexicon notes "wanton (acts or) manners, filthy words, indecent bodily movements" and "unchaste handling of males and females".

We are to abstain from that which is sinful (mixed dancing) and that which could cause others to sin (other forms of dancing).

Christians and Dancing Homepage.

You have gone beyond the bounds of the confession, and therefore beyond the bounds of my conscience. You have quoted the confession in support of your claims, which I believe is a misrepresentation. The confession does not say that all forms of dancing are sinful, and so you cannot garner its support on this issue.

Thank God that David was not a member of the FPC in Northern Ireland.

Are you seriously trying to argue that because the King of Israel, inspired by the Spirit of God, danced before the Ark of the Covenant in delight at God's presence being returned to Jerusalem we are able to engage in mixed dancing?

The Free Presbyterian Church in Northern Ireland has reminded its members that all dancing is sinful.

As Daniel said, the FPC in Northern Ireland has taken an unbiblical stand on this issue, and I believe you have also, Richard.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the King of Israel, inspired by the Spirit of God, caused those around him to sin when he danced before the Ark of the Covenant?

 

[Amazing Grace]

How did it reach such an excess one says? This is a perfect example of going too far the other way to balance what was happening during those times, and still happens today. Balance is the hardest objective for sinful man is it not?

To oppose all mixed dancing is a legalistic Pharisitical spirit with a capital P. Now I do not throw that term around much becasue it is used very improper at times. And it is frowned upon at times here as being inflammatory, but if it walks like a duck, well you know the rest.

Now before you, Rich[AV 1611], ask me if I am consider the 'divines' as having this spirit regarding this topic, just so I am clear, YES, if the are agreeing with you on this matter. I am not sure if that is the case though. This is as foolish as some who do not want their pictures taken. A spirit of bondage and false witness. Throwing out the baby with the bath water is NEVER the answer, but found necessary at times by some, wrongly, but justifiable in their own eyes.

 

[Coram Deo]

This issue has recently come up within our family due to a wedding.... I agree with Exagorazo..... The scriptures and the Westminster Catechism does not condemn all dancing nor does it condemn all mix dancing... The matter "Lascivious" and "Promiscuous" Dancing.. Those Dances that act like sex or sexual acts out on the dance floor.... (Which throws out about almost every Modern Dance).. It is nothing more and or less then p0rnography on the Dance Floor.

But not every Dance between a Man and a Woman is Lascivious and Promiscuous. Some are quite innocent and folky... I agree that those who are not married need to be extra careful in chaste of heart when dancing. There is nothing wrong for married people to dance (Even Publicly) unless it is Lascivious or Promiscuous.

To dance or Not to dance is the question and I think Moderate Non Pornographic Dancing is allowed by scripture by Non Pornographic Music. Anything that outside of Marriage and not done privately by husband and wife that entices lust is to be avoided and forbidden by the Seventh Commandment... But I find it very hard to see how the old English Country Dance "Grimstock" entices lust or acts like a sexual act out on the dance floor....

Shockingly, My wife and I have been to a number of Reformed Baptist Weddings and have been SHOCKED by some of the Promiscuous Dancing that has taken place on the dance floor including Raggee Dancing and the NightClub Like Dancing.... It is a weakness that Reformed Baptist are going to have to come to grips with.. My wife and I never partook and left soon after the dancing started....

Do you believe that the Westminster Divines were thought that all books were forbidden by the seventh commandment?

Check out the adjective "lascivious". The question is then, can dancing be anything other than lascivious to which I would reply "no". Mixed dancing is forbidden by the decalogue. As we are to be whiter than white and abstain from all appearance of evil we ought not to take part in any dancings whether mixed or not.

FYI: BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Church brands line-dancing 'sinful'

As for sports, those which tend to do harm to others would violate the sixth commandment and we ought not let them dominate our lives. As a form of recreation, fitness most sports would be fine though in my opinion.

 

[AV1611]

But not every Dance between a Man and a Woman is Lascivious

This is where we would have to disagree.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

But not every Dance between a Man and a Woman is Lascivious

This is where we would have to disagree.

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

 

[Amazing Grace]

But not every Dance between a Man and a Woman is Lascivious

This is where we would have to disagree.

Richard, with all due respect, oh perhaps no due respect since I find this belief not due any respect,[] why on God's earth would you even rise and fall on this ant hill? And a handshake will not happen to disagree on this. I cannot even picture myself saying while shaking your hand,"Well richard, as ridiculous and base I find this opinion, let's shake hands and agree to disagree"

We need an avatar that is a "Pile of dung"

http://images.neopets.com/neoboards/avatars/dung.gif

 

[AV1611]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

I have talked at length with this issue with our curate who enjoys dancing and who met his wife at university through it. He has not been able to convince me that the stance I have taken is unbiblical so I very much doubt you will either hence I will leave the matter there.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

I have talked at length with this issue with our curate who enjoys dancing and who met his wife at university through it. He has not been able to convince me that the stance I have taken is unbiblical so I very much doubt you will either hence I will leave the matter there.

How can a married couple have sinful lustful desires towards one another? Is the Song of Solomon lustful? There was an idea among some early church fathers that men committed lust while having sex with their wives. Such a notion is derived from Greek philosophy, not from the Scriptures.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

I have talked at length with this issue with our curate who enjoys dancing and who met his wife at university through it. He has not been able to convince me that the stance I have taken is unbiblical so I very much doubt you will either hence I will leave the matter there.

Then your curate is either; 1) not trying becasue he, as I also feel, that certain beliefs do not demand much discussion to convince the person of their errors. The more attention one gives a ridiculous teaching, the more it becomes validated.

or 2) You have become hardened to scripture in this specific area.

 

[JonathanHunt]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

Setting a bad example, I could grant. But a husband and wife sin when they desire one another? Oh please. Go and get married!

 

[Amazing Grace]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

I have talked at length with this issue with our curate who enjoys dancing and who met his wife at university through it. He has not been able to convince me that the stance I have taken is unbiblical so I very much doubt you will either hence I will leave the matter there.

How can a married couple have sinful lustful desires towards one another? Is the Song of Solomon lustful? There was an idea among some early church fathers that men committed lust while having sex with their wives. Such a notion is derived from Greek philosophy, not from the Scriptures.

Augustine was famous for this error. Here is an honest question. Is it lustful to look at your wife and think about having sex with her? When does a spouse cross the line?

Is it lustful to look at an unmarried person and think about sex if you are also unmarried?

Is there a difference and where does it lie between healthy biblical sex and lust?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

Setting a bad example, I could grant. But a husband and wife sin when they desire one another? Oh please. Go and get married!

A dose of realism injected into the discussion.

 

[AV1611]

How can a married couple have sinful lustful desires towards one another?

So are you saying that a husband is unable to have intense or unrestrained sexual craving or longing towards his wife?

 

[Amazing Grace]

Is it wrong for a man to dance with his wife?

I would have to answer in the affirmative. A married couple can still suffer from lustful excitements that are sinful. Furthermore, it would set a bad example for others.

Setting a bad example, I could grant. But a husband and wife sin when they desire one another? Oh please. Go and get married!

Yes, the bad example of being terrible dancers. Now that would offend me..