A question about Education. Private vs HS

[kvanlaan]

I was homeschooled, and I have to say that my Mom couldn't teach us the calculus stuff, and all that, but what we did come away from school with was a good work ethic, and the ability to think independently. We lived on a farm, and had to care for animals, vegetables, etc, which taught us responsibility, and my dad also had a home business, which taught us where our money came from... the work of our hands! I think these things are very important, besides the obvious training and discipling in God's word.

That makes me think of one other angle in all this: we are not expecting our children to be on the Harvard rowing team at any point in their lives. To us, their schooling is primarily there to make them useful instruments in God's kingdom. They will be in the workforce and should be trained for that future (that is, we don't want them to suffer financially because they were given an education that eschewed any planning for a career) but we are not in it for high-octane academics leading to an Ivy League school first and foremost.

 

[LawrenceU]

I was homeschooled, and I have to say that my Mom couldn't teach us the calculus stuff, and all that, but what we did come away from school with was a good work ethic, and the ability to think independently. We lived on a farm, and had to care for animals, vegetables, etc, which taught us responsibility, and my dad also had a home business, which taught us where our money came from... the work of our hands! I think these things are very important, besides the obvious training and discipling in God's word.

That makes me think of one other angle in all this: we are not expecting our children to be on the Harvard rowing team at any point in their lives. To us, their schooling is primarily there to make them useful instruments in God's kingdom. They will be in the workforce and should be trained for that future (that is, we don't want them to suffer financially because they were given an education that eschewed any planning for a career) but we are not in it for high-octane academics leading to an Ivy League school first and foremost.

Another facet: I keep hearing things like, 'You can't teach calculus / advanced sciences / etc. ' as a reason that homeschooling is inferior. While not taking anything away from the study of those things: how many jobs / life long careers require such knowledge? (And, just so you know, one of my majors require all of that.) Very few. And, if public / private schools are so superior at teaching these subjects why is it that our young people from these institutions do so miserably at them? Even 'honours' students. It is a straw man argument all the way around. If your child needs this type of education you can do it from the home, even in the middle of nowhere. It has pretty much always been that way, even more so now.

 

[nasa30]

I was homeschooled, and I have to say that my Mom couldn't teach us the calculus stuff, and all that, but what we did come away from school with was a good work ethic, and the ability to think independently. We lived on a farm, and had to care for animals, vegetables, etc, which taught us responsibility, and my dad also had a home business, which taught us where our money came from... the work of our hands! I think these things are very important, besides the obvious training and discipling in God's word.

That makes me think of one other angle in all this: we are not expecting our children to be on the Harvard rowing team at any point in their lives. To us, their schooling is primarily there to make them useful instruments in God's kingdom. They will be in the workforce and should be trained for that future (that is, we don't want them to suffer financially because they were given an education that eschewed any planning for a career) but we are not in it for high-octane academics leading to an Ivy League school first and foremost.

Another facet: I keep hearing things like, 'You can't teach calculus / advanced sciences / etc. ' as a reason that homeschooling is inferior. While not taking anything away from the study of those things: how many jobs / life long careers require such knowledge? (And, just so you know, one of my majors require all of that.) Very few. And, if public / private schools are so superior at teaching these subjects why is it that our young people from these institutions do so miserably at them? Even 'honours' students. It is a straw man argument all the way around. If your child needs this type of education you can do it from the home, even in the middle of nowhere. It has pretty much always been that way, even more so now.

Lawrence, You are so correct. It really is a straw man argument. If a family does not want to do what it takes to arrange their life so they can HS, then don't. That's your choice as parent but HS should not be marginalized on fiction. The stats show time and time again that home schoolers do by far better in standardized tests then public or priivate school and my university prof friends say that HS are much better students as a whole. Today, more than ever, advanced classes can be taught from the home.

 

[Megan Mozart]

I have also heard that universities and colleges love homeschoolers and it's easier to get in if you were homeschooled.

 

[Christusregnat]

I was homeschooled, and I have to say that my Mom couldn't teach us the calculus stuff, and all that, but what we did come away from school with was a good work ethic, and the ability to think independently. We lived on a farm, and had to care for animals, vegetables, etc, which taught us responsibility, and my dad also had a home business, which taught us where our money came from... the work of our hands! I think these things are very important, besides the obvious training and discipling in God's word.

I can vouch for the high-quality education my wife received. As she modestly alluded to, she is a very hard-working and responsible helpmeet and woman, and an excellent wife, home-school teacher, mother, and keeper at home. She learned all that she needed and more, and is one of the best researchers on medical and family issues that I know. She cured my vericose veins within a few months of our being married, plus I gained 60 pounds in that same time frame (ehem... due to the excellent cooking she learned while schooling). She has also introduced me to a whole set of literary works to which I had not been exposed previously (Stephen Lawhead, Woodehouse, Lord Peter Whimsey, etc.).

Love you babe!

 

[Idelette]

Another facet: I keep hearing things like, 'You can't teach calculus / advanced sciences / etc. ' as a reason that homeschooling is inferior. While not taking anything away from the study of those things: how many jobs / life long careers require such knowledge? (And, just so you know, one of my majors require all of that.) Very few. And, if public / private schools are so superior at teaching these subjects why is it that our young people from these institutions do so miserably at them? Even 'honours' students. It is a straw man argument all the way around. If your child needs this type of education you can do it from the home, even in the middle of nowhere. It has pretty much always been that way, even more so now.

I completely agree that it is a straw man argument! First of all, there's a good 12 years of education that can take place before you even get into those upper level subjects. So, that argument doesn't really apply until the latter stages of schooling anyhow. Also, I think if parents truly desire to homeschool they will find a way around these issues rather than see them as stumbling blocks to homeschooling at all. I know several HS families that would get together, and would actually take turns teaching specific skills or subjects. For example, I know an engineer that would teach higher level mathematics and science to the children, while someone else would teach Spanish or French etc. I don't view these things as stumbling blocks to HS, but as opportunities.

 

[VanDood]

Though we have the option of a solid Christian school, we choose to continue to homeschool because we will are going through a period of moving every few years. Homeschooling provides a constant environment for our children, moving and changing schools can be very difficult. We may choose to enroll them in school in the future, (especially for high school) but for now this works well.

 

[ChariotsofFire]

I went to a private Christian school for K-12. Growing up, our church had a number of families who homeschooled, but I never really interested me till after college when I began to work Alpha Omega. I had numerous discussions with parents who homeschooled around the country, and the idea of homeschooling really began to grow on me.

I see homeschooling as a very viable option for our family, since my dear wife enjoys staying at home already with our 1-year-old. I wouldn't say using a private school is unbiblical, but I just see some definite advantages to homeschooling. Having that extra time to spend with your children to train them up in the Lord seems like it would be a real blessing. Also it seems like it's a better use of time, as homeschool kids don't have the down time you find in the classroom.

 

[kvanlaan]

Homeschooling provides a constant environment for our children, moving and changing schools can be very difficult.

I know of a number of families who are not happy with the schools that their children are in (but don't see homeschooling as an option), but they don't feel right about taking them out because of the hardship that the children will suffer because of it. The stability of the home helps keep them on an even keel.

 

[kvanlaan]

Another funny thing is that I see a lot of URC families that homeschool. As a newer denomination, there are not many URC schools around (though there is one opening in St George, Ontario in the fall of 2010). Thus while many URC families homeschool now, will that ratio be greatly different in 15 years? Not sure...

 

[a mere housewife]

Yet the balancing part of the academic question would be to point out that many of the notable scholars throughout church history and history in general would simply not have been, if they had been taught by their moms and dads? Whether or not most children will go beyond the point of the usual amount of learning necessary to function in their society is certainly up for debate, but for those who *have* (and their contributions to society are nothing to sneeze at), learning from someone who knows the subject matter has not been a negligible advantage? I agree that this doesn't constitute an argument for the general inferiority of homeschooling, but it does make considering other options for exceptional children sensible.

Anecdotally, the people I personally have known who were public school honor students are exceptionally well educated.

 

[kvanlaan]

Yet the balancing part of the academic question would be to point out that many of the notable scholars throughout church history and history in general would simply not have been, if they had been taught by their moms and dads? Whether or not most children will go beyond the point of the usual amount of learning necessary to function in their society is certainly up for debate, but for those who *have* (and their contributions to society are nothing to sneeze at), learning from someone who knows the subject matter has not been a negligible advantage? I agree that this doesn't constitute an argument for the general inferiority of homeschooling, but it does make considering other options for exceptional children sensible.

Thing is, if they show aptitude for further study in whatever field, there are universities a plenty for them to study at. How many of these brilliant scholars stopped right after high school? I would think none - they had academic drive that lead them further down that road. I don't want my children to stop right after high school, but their academic acumen will not aid in their sanctification. I think that what we're trying to do here (as a general rule) is incubate/cultivate the next selfless missionary, not the next Albert Einstein. For all the good Einstein did, the world needs the gospel, it does not need the theory of relativity. We're not trying to produce Luddites by any means, but our focus MUST be the gospel first and foremost. Should they go on to seminary afterward, then great! What a blessing! Or MIT - OK!

(Also, I think lil' Al was partially homeschooled...)

 

[a mere housewife]

Kevin, I certainly appreciate that point of view -- godliness is more important than academics (though my own point re: eduation itself is that in general scholarly people throughout history like Augustine and C. S. Lewis etc. were already learning in 'grammar' school far more than their parents could have taught them: which was not a negligible aspect of their being able to go on so brilliantly from there). However -- I find this very hard to put into words -- having been homeschooled myself, I cannot think of it as a promised land. Almost universally I have seen that where the parents desired to be 'the biggest influence in their childrens' lives' they got their wish -- and their children escaped none of the sinfulness of unideal situations, because their parents were also sinners. The parents' faults have borne so heavily (lack of discipline, unselfishness, uncharity, anger, even in cases sexual perversion), magnified by the intensity of insulation, that the lives of homeschooled children I grew up with are by a large, if not a shambles -- very deeply scarred by sin. The teenagers turned to alcohol, drugs, sex, etc., as regularly as those I grew up with who were put in Christian schools, and more regularly than those whose parents put them in a public school. Please do not mistake me for saying that my experience is the norm. But having had it, I cannot believe that homeschooling makes it possible to keep one's children from damaging influences. I am a damaging influence -- so are you, dear reader, whoever you are. I am terrified at the thought of being the biggest influence in my childrens' lives. May God give me grace not to default in any area of responsibility, but may He send many men and women to override my failings being merely repeated with a more vicious tendency in them.

In my experience, having a good relationship with one's parents, esp. through teenage years, was far more important than how a child was educated. And in my experience, homeschooling did not generally promote such a relationship. Again, this has only been one person's experience -- and it was my experience growing up: my friends who homeschool give me a much more positive appreciation for it all. But I hope it explains my lack of idealistic fervour -- though I am not antagonistic (hopefully obviously, as I've done this myself and would hope to do it again), and honor very much the sacrifices involved.

[edit: I am hesitant about the language of *aiming* to cultivate missionaries by education rather than some other calling etc -- surely it is God who calls and cultivates his missionaries? --If I've misunderstood, could you clarify that? thanks ]

 

[nasa30]

Heidi, I am sorry to hear that your home schooling experience was that bad. I do have to say that your story is a rarity to me and our group of HS in my area are in the thousands. I am not saying that every HS family is a success story, but I have not seen anything like you describe. Not even close. Our community of HS is fantastic and our kids are preferred at the two local colleges (one University and one state college) We are organized and do not isolate our kids. Our HS basketball team were actually National Champs last year in our division. Our basketball and football teams play private as well as public schools so our kids are exposed to a variety of people. Because of that fact, your statement:

I am terrified at the thought of being the biggest influence in my children's' lives

is a foreign concept to me. I think I understand what you mean, I am a sinner after all, but I am a sinner that loves my children more than anyone here on planet Earth so I am ok with my wife and I being their biggest influence.

When asked if I think that I am indoctrinating my children by keeping them at home I answer a resounding "YES, Yes I am" because I want to do it before and to counter the cultures indoctrination of them.

 

[kvanlaan]

[edit: I am hesitant about the language of *aiming* to cultivate missionaries by education rather than some other calling etc -- surely it is God who calls and cultivates his missionaries? --If I've misunderstood, could you clarify that? thanks ]

To clarify: that we are cultivating a generation of witnesses for Him. He who is not a missionary is a mission field. But that does not mean that a 'missionary' is a Pergy heading off into the jungle. It simply means that we spread the gospel as Christians, but that we are equipped to do so.

As for being the biggest influence in my children's lives, yes, it is at times terrifying. And humbling. And brings to you the fact that homeschooling is not just traipsing through the tulips, it is a grave thing. But we are called to train up our children in the way they should go. So we do.

 

[a mere housewife]

I'm afraid I can't explain foreign concepts very well I know that loving people cannot redeem them from our sins.

No, as I said above, I do not mean to set up my experience as the norm. We did have basketball teams etc. too -- that, along with church camp and other wholesome settings, was where a lot of the drugs, sex, etc. took place: without the parents' knowledge. Regardless of whether such experiences are common (and obviously, they are going to be more common than parents will ever know) I think it is good to appreciate that we can't 'produce' grace by any effort, in our own lives or anyone else's -- and that homeschooling is not a 'means of grace' -- it is not salvific. I would personally do it not because I think it is likely to save my children from the heartbreak and misery of being affected by their own and other people's sins, but as a matter of the lesser of evils in certain situations, and so of my own duties to a child.

Kevin, thanks for clarifying: I need to think more about that but it does make me hesitate less . Incidentally, please let Elizabeth know that I'm still thinking of her and praying re: the morning sickness (which I hope is passing?)

 

[nasa30]

I know that loving people cannot redeem them from our sins.

and that homeschooling is not a 'means of grace' -- it is not salvific

I don't believe I have ever said that my loving my children will redeem them from our sins nor do I believe that we can 'produce' grace by any effort of mine. That is the work of our sovereign Lord and if that is what you think that we are trying to do by home schooling, then we are not on a close enough plane to talk about this. I am not so naive to think that we as parents know everything that our children do or think but that is all the more reason that I want to be more involved in my children's day to day by home schooling.

 

[a mere housewife]

I know that loving people cannot redeem them from our sins.

and that homeschooling is not a 'means of grace' -- it is not salvific

I don't believe I have ever said that my loving my children will redeem them from our sins nor do I believe that we can 'produce' grace by any effort of mine. That is the work of our sovereign Lord and if that is what you think that we are trying to do by home schooling, then we are not on a close enough plane to talk about this. I am not so naive to think that we as parents know everything that our children do or think but that is all the more reason that I want to be more involved in my children's day to day by home schooling.

Judson, I think there is some further miscommunication -- I was trying to further explain my own point of view about homeschooling, which you had said was confusingly stated: I sincerely had no intention of attempting to define yours. In my experience, homeschooling is indeed often spoken of as if it were a means of grace; and in my experience human nature tends to make a law and a gospel out of all sorts of things that are neither -- but I did not have you in mind while reflecting on my experience. Thank you for the interaction.

 

[TimV]

Heidi *again* raises good points. Homeschooling isn't perfect, and is no guarantee of successful child rearing. A good analogy would be which church you send your kids to. After all in both cases one is dealing with education. Going with your kids to a NAPARC church is no guarantee of having the kids turn out well, as is obvious to anyone who's had several years experience in those churches. It's just the alternatives are generally worse. There are plenty of secular churches out there, and when you look at the kids raised in those churches on the whole (and that's all that one can really do with such a general thread) then most people who have observed these things will admit that kids raised in solid Reformed churches turn out better than kids raised in feminized social gospel settings.

 

[kvanlaan]

I think it is good to appreciate that we can't 'produce' grace by any effort, in our own lives or anyone else's -- and that homeschooling is not a 'means of grace' -- it is not salvific.

Agreed, I don't think anyone would argue with you on that! Neither is stewardship of anything salvific, but attempting to raise our children in His ways (in spite of our failings) is a means of serving the Lord, and it is what He demands. There is some latitude on how that is done, but I think that too often we take that and run with it to the Nth degree.

PS - Elizabeth is not so nauseated now, and last night for the first time, she felt the baby move. We go in for an ultrasound next week and we may get to know the sex of the baby. Thank you for your continued prayers!

 

[Honor]

ok first an admission... I have not read all the posts.(sorry)
alrighty then this is just me and my opinion so beware before continuing.
I homeschool our 5 and 4 year old. specifically I like it... gernerally I hate it. what do I mean? I know my stregths and weaknesses. I want to be the best at everything I attempt. I want to be the best wife I could possibly be. I want to be the best mother and house keeper and wife that I can be and right now with a 6 week old I feel like I am being pulled in 4 ways and I am not doing a great job at any of them so i am frustrated and irratable all the time. Plus my 6 year old is on one level and my 4 year old is on another level and they are soooo easily destracted that I spend most of my day disciplining and redirecting then teaching. I want the best possible education and while I want to homeschool with my whole heart I really really do.... honestly I suck at it. we have desided that after we have looked and streched and pinched our budget we can not afford private school ( and trust me we have tried to get a scholorship but the school that is attached with our church only give 50% scholorships and as we all know 2 50s make a whole) so next school year we are going to put the boys in public school *ducks*
now before you get out the pitchforks I urge you to respond with grace because I have tried for two years to give my boys the best education I can and I am failing... we do it with a heavy heart. But even more than our pride we want our boys to have a good education that is more than a few hours a couple of days a week and right now that is all it is... maybe it would be different if we had the money to get a whole HS curriculum set but we don't so this is what we have desided to do. I think that homeschool is best (if you can do it) and if you can afford it private school is great too and if you can't do either than you have to make do and get the best you can out of public school.
Max I don't know if this helps you but this is us

 

[a mere housewife]

Jessica, I'm so sorry you're struggling with everything and the new baby, and will pray for you.

 

[Honor]

thanks

 

[Mindaboo]

ok first an admission... I have not read all the posts.(sorry)
alrighty then this is just me and my opinion so beware before continuing.
I homeschool our 5 and 4 year old. specifically I like it... gernerally I hate it. what do I mean? I know my stregths and weaknesses. I want to be the best at everything I attempt.

First of all let me say that I feel like this some days too! I remember having a new baby homeschooling a then 7 and 5 year old, the next year having a new baby again in the middle of Brad's chimney sweep season. When you have a new baby and especially when you have one that has had some problems you need to give yourself some grace. You don't need to do everything. You can school all year, that is what we do. Life happens and we have taken as much as 4 or 5 months off at a time when needed. When Brad's dad was dying from cancer it was more important for us to be there to help him.

I want to be the best wife I could possibly be. I want to be the best mother and house keeper and wife that I can be and right now with a 6 week old I feel like I am being pulled in 4 ways and I am not doing a great job at any of them so i am frustrated and irratable all the time. Plus my 6 year old is on one level and my 4 year old is on another level and they are soooo easily destracted that I spend most of my day disciplining and redirecting then teaching. I want the best possible education and while I want to homeschool with my whole heart I really really do.... honestly I suck at it. we have desided that after we have looked and streched and pinched our budget we can not afford private school ( and trust me we have tried to get a scholorship but the school that is attached with our church only give 50% scholorships and as we all know 2 50s make a whole) so next school year we are going to put the boys in public school *ducks*
now before you get out the pitchforks I urge you to respond with grace because I have tried for two years to give my boys the best education I can and I am failing... we do it with a heavy heart. But even more than our pride we want our boys to have a good education that is more than a few hours a couple of days a week and right now that is all it is... maybe it would be different if we had the money to get a whole HS curriculum set but we don't so this is what we have desided to do. I think that homeschool is best (if you can do it) and if you can afford it private school is great too and if you can't do either than you have to make do and get the best you can out of public school.
Max I don't know if this helps you but this is us

Let me add I suck too, but by God's grace He fills in the gaps. You are being way to hard on yourself. If you can do math and reading in a day that is more than enough for the ages you have. I struggle with keeping my house clean, with being a good wife, and being a good mother. The truth is I fail constantly. I beat myself up daily for not getting it all done. But let me say this, my kids always test above average well above and I am always amazed, because in all honesty I don't do that much with them. It is all the Lord and not me. If you feel like you need to put your kids in school the Lord will lead you and make the way clear. Give yourself some time, you have a lot of pressure on you. The Lord will make the way if this is the work He has called you to do. He promises to equip you and He is faithful. Sometimes it is hard to see the good and we have struggled financially and not been able to buy curriculum at different times.

Hang in there, Jessica. I will be praying for you.

 

[Honor]

thanks ya'll... i really didn't write that post to be woe is me... i wrote it to show that there are different reasons for and for not HSing... thank you though... I really thought I would have gotten stones thrown at me

 

[Mindaboo]

i wrote it to show that there are different reasons for and for not HSing

Of course there are. We aren't homeschooling natzi's, but we do believe it what is best. If you have to put your kids in school the Lord will guard and protect. He is able and He will make it clear.

 

[kvanlaan]

Let me add I suck too, but by God's grace He fills in the gaps. You are being way to hard on yourself. If you can do math and reading in a day that is more than enough for the ages you have. I struggle with keeping my house clean, with being a good wife, and being a good mother. The truth is I fail constantly. I beat myself up daily for not getting it all done. But let me say this, my kids always test above average well above and I am always amazed, because in all honesty I don't do that much with them. It is all the Lord and not me. If you feel like you need to put your kids in school the Lord will lead you and make the way clear. Give yourself some time, you have a lot of pressure on you. The Lord will make the way if this is the work He has called you to do. He promises to equip you and He is faithful. Sometimes it is hard to see the good and we have struggled financially and not been able to buy curriculum at different times.

My wife often feels the same way, like she's not doing it all, she's not getting enough done. And really does beat herself up about it. It is not easy, and really pushes the ends of endurance with Elizabeth. And I say this as the father of a daughter who in the third grade tested in the 11th grade in Language Arts (and only in math did she not test to high-school levels). Perfection is never attainable here. (And we know that she could have done better in math! )

I think we're all very comfortable in making disparaging remarks about PS in general, but no one is going to cast the first stone when a parent has agonized over such a decision as much as you have, Jessica.

 

[Mindaboo]

My wife often feels the same way, like she's not doing it all, she's not getting enough done. And really does beat herself up about it. It is not easy. And I say this as the father of a daughter who in the third grade tested in the 11th grade in Language Arts (and only in math did she not test to high-school levels). Perfection is never attainable here. (And we know that she could have done better in math! )

That is the part that truly amazes me. My son tested college level and high school level at everything in 4th grade. I know it had nothing to do with my amazing teaching skills. By the world's standards I would not be considered competent. I only had a high school diploma and I think that was only because they wanted me out of the school. It sure did shut the family up when I presented those results. No one, not even my unbelieving family questions me anymore about my capability. It really is an act of the Lord. Kevin, your wife is incredible and I have a lot of respect and admiration for her. By the way, I love you signature. She must truly be an angelic woman to homeschool tne kids.

 

[calgal]

Let me add I suck too, but by God's grace He fills in the gaps. You are being way to hard on yourself. If you can do math and reading in a day that is more than enough for the ages you have. I struggle with keeping my house clean, with being a good wife, and being a good mother. The truth is I fail constantly. I beat myself up daily for not getting it all done. But let me say this, my kids always test above average well above and I am always amazed, because in all honesty I don't do that much with them. It is all the Lord and not me. If you feel like you need to put your kids in school the Lord will lead you and make the way clear. Give yourself some time, you have a lot of pressure on you. The Lord will make the way if this is the work He has called you to do. He promises to equip you and He is faithful. Sometimes it is hard to see the good and we have struggled financially and not been able to buy curriculum at different times.

My wife often feels the same way, like she's not doing it all, she's not getting enough done. And really does beat herself up about it. It is not easy, and really pushes the ends of endurance with Elizabeth. And I say this as the father of a daughter who in the third grade tested in the 11th grade in Language Arts (and only in math did she not test to high-school levels). Perfection is never attainable here. (And we know that she could have done better in math! )

I think we're all very comfortable in making disparaging remarks about PS in general, but no one is going to cast the first stone when a parent has agonized over such a decision as much as you have, Jessica.

Kevin please don't go making it a we all statement.I just want to make it very clear that not all families are able to homeschool their kids for a variety of reasons. And that whatever choice a family makes is between them and God.

 

[ChariotsofFire]

Jessica, I'll be praying for you and your family. If you do send your kids to public school, stay strong with family worship, and stay especially involved with subjects like science. Some public schools are better depending on what part of the country you live in. Here in NW Iowa, the public schools are pretty tame. Train your kids to realize that not everything they hear at school is true. The other concern I have with public school is the many unbelieving peers your kids will be around. Be involved with the friends they make. Keep praying.