Judson, in regard to my warning about having the Thread shu you really were not crossing the line of which I spoke! thank you for the Study!
A question about Education. Private vs HS
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Megan Mozart
Puritan Board Junior
Etexas, even though this is secondhand information, I have heard from most of the homeschooling parents I know that the statistics show that even if your parents have only an eight grade education, the homeschooled children of those parents do better academically than their public school peers. It appears to be a rule of thumb, then, that their education doesn't matter, though on an individual basis I think it would be foolish to assume that it has absolutely NO affect at all. But perhaps the effect is minimal? Just my two cents.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
The goal isn't for mom to demonstrate brain surgery in the kitchen, it's to get the kids started with a proper world view, discipline etc.. After a certain age, usually mid to late teens, the kids move on, either to owning their own business (which is really common) or going to a secular college or trade school. So you don't have to worry too much about calculus, electrical engineering, removing eye cancers, etc...
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
It all depends on what you want for your children and how they are geared. My father has a graduate degree and my mother a B.S. I don't think it would have been possible for either of them to teach me calculus or physics without their college educations. (That doesnt' mean they couldn't have homeschooled me, it just means that they would have needed to find other venues in which I could take upper level math and science classes. As it was, I took all of my lit, writing, and foreign language classes at community college or co-op because my parents didn't have those skills). If you give your child an excellent secondary education than you give them the freedom to make choices in their life. Your daughter can be a stay at home mom or she can be a college professor. Your son can be a landscaper or a physicist. Not every parent can give their children the best education because of circumstance. But I think its a great service to t he child when they make every effort to do so.
Megan Mozart
Puritan Board Junior
My husband has a BS in Mathematics so he knows Calculus like the back of his hand, and the math he likes doesn't even use numbers. Cuz he's a freak like that.
Guess who's going to teach our future kids math.
Guess who's going to teach our future kids math.
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
My husband has a BS in Mathematics so he knows Calculus like the back of his hand, and the math he likes doesn't even use numbers. Cuz he's a freak like that.
Guess who's going to teach our future kids math.
My father is similar (electrical engineer). After we finished trig, my mother just handed the textbooks over to him.
. "All yours now, honey."
Scottish Lass
Puritan Board Doctor
My husband has a BS in Mathematics so he knows Calculus like the back of his hand, and the math he likes doesn't even use numbers. Cuz he's a freak like that.
Guess who's going to teach our future kids math.
My father is similar (electrical engineer). After we finished trig, my mother just handed the textbooks over to him.
Yep, we'll be doing the same with Grace, I imagine...I taught English and he taught math, so you can predict what will happen by Algebra II!
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
I know many people in our church who have gone all the way through and Mom has nothing but a HS diploma or maybe a Liberal Arts BA - their kids are all well rounded and well educated. Thing is, these people homeschool with a zeal that is religious/evangelical in proportion. Without that zeal/sense of mission (coupled with in home discipline), I think you're back to square one again. That is to say that the 'why' of why they do it is a deep religious conviction that God has given this responsibility to them as a parent and they follow it up with an effort steeped in deep religious conviction. That's what got them through 18 years of HS.
Nice answer my good Brother. Thank you for giving a why (HS) ... without casting judgment on those of us whose parents used Private Christian. A gentleman a Christian and a good mind AND giving the type of answer I was actually asking. Thanks Kevin. Blessings!
Great answer, it does not invoke an "imaginary mandate", well done. Blessings Pete.
Well, I would personally use HS as a stopgap (or a last resort) until we could make arrangements to get the kids into a Christian school or charter school (around here, the charter schools are Christian in all but name). I do think education is a decision each family has to make for its children. And that the church should help families as much as possible to get the kids into a decent Christian school.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
One really must determine what God has called them to do with the children they have been given to raise. I hate to say this but a lot, and I mean a lot, of Christian parents never really seriously ponder this. They just walk lockstep in what ever culture they find familiar. Far too many parents today see education as 'job training' or the accumulation of vast amounts of knowledge. That is a fairly new way of viewing education. If you trace the stream of such educational philosophy you may be well surprised from whence it floweth. It ain't pretty. But, it has accomplished its goal.
Parents are given a vitally important task. The Scriptures are flush with directive, wisdom, example, and exhortation to the task. They should be well studied before children are en route.
Parents are given a vitally important task. The Scriptures are flush with directive, wisdom, example, and exhortation to the task. They should be well studied before children are en route.
Idelette
Puritan Board Graduate
I wasn't home-schooled myself, and went to public schools all the way through University. I wasn't exposed to HS until I became a believer. At first, I didn't think it was necessarily better. But over the years, I have been convinced that I would homeschool without a question!
I agree with Taylor that the responsibility of training up a child lies with the parents. I also believe that parents have the responsibility to guard their children from the world and the world's influence. And you simply cannot do that if your are not the one controlling what material is being taught. I can recall all the philosophical teachings, the homosexuality, the blatant promiscuity and all the other sinful things that are actually taught in public schools--and that's not including the influence of peers! I can't tell you how many times I had to challenge teachers or talk to Dept. Heads because of books or movies that were blatantly immoral and yet were required to be viewed! Or how many times, I had to challenge professors that were teaching false things when it came to christianity or history. There are children's books that are now required to be read in public schools that promote homosexuality or teach that stealing is okay...these are things that will influence our children no matter "how strong" they are. And even in christian schools....there is a host of questionable material that is still being taught.
Apart from that, no one can give your child a tailored education like you can! You know you child better than anyone else does....you know where their weaknesses are, and how to focus on strengthening those areas. There is also the added benefit for the mothers themselves that teach. I can't tell you how many HS mothers have told me what a blessing it is to have that time with their children, and how much they've grown and learned themselves! I don't believe someone needs to have a teaching degree to HS....but a willing spirit and the conviction of these responsibilities!
The statistics are very clear; HS children are far more intelligent, much more successful, and more skilled than those that are not. And most of them end up becoming very strong believers! For me its not even a question. I realize that many people have financial struggles and it may not always be feasible, but I believe the responsibility that I would have as a parent far outweighs any financial cost that it would have. In my honest opinion, the cost of our children's spiritual well-being should not be taken lightly!
I agree with Taylor that the responsibility of training up a child lies with the parents. I also believe that parents have the responsibility to guard their children from the world and the world's influence. And you simply cannot do that if your are not the one controlling what material is being taught. I can recall all the philosophical teachings, the homosexuality, the blatant promiscuity and all the other sinful things that are actually taught in public schools--and that's not including the influence of peers! I can't tell you how many times I had to challenge teachers or talk to Dept. Heads because of books or movies that were blatantly immoral and yet were required to be viewed! Or how many times, I had to challenge professors that were teaching false things when it came to christianity or history. There are children's books that are now required to be read in public schools that promote homosexuality or teach that stealing is okay...these are things that will influence our children no matter "how strong" they are. And even in christian schools....there is a host of questionable material that is still being taught.
Apart from that, no one can give your child a tailored education like you can! You know you child better than anyone else does....you know where their weaknesses are, and how to focus on strengthening those areas. There is also the added benefit for the mothers themselves that teach. I can't tell you how many HS mothers have told me what a blessing it is to have that time with their children, and how much they've grown and learned themselves! I don't believe someone needs to have a teaching degree to HS....but a willing spirit and the conviction of these responsibilities!
The statistics are very clear; HS children are far more intelligent, much more successful, and more skilled than those that are not. And most of them end up becoming very strong believers! For me its not even a question. I realize that many people have financial struggles and it may not always be feasible, but I believe the responsibility that I would have as a parent far outweighs any financial cost that it would have. In my honest opinion, the cost of our children's spiritual well-being should not be taken lightly!
I think that these discussions are often difficult because people fail to make certain necessary distinctions. I'm deriving my terminology from C.S. Lewis, but the concepts seem pretty clear whatever you want to call them. Under the word "education" people include different things, which leads to confusion.
One thing people sometimes mean by "education" is vocational training. Learning skills that can be used - the mechanic arts, computer literacy, etc. I think it will be generally acknowledged that the main thing here is to learn from someone who knows his stuff. Law school or medical school or (excuse me) seminary are vocational training. They attempt to give you the knowledge and skills to do a certain job adequately.
Another part of what people mean by "education" is the formation of character (Lewis reserves "education" for this aspect). I hope it would be generally agreed that farming this out to the ungodly or the ill-informed is a bad idea. This relates to questions of right and wrong, and how you react in the face of them. This is clearly the responsibility of parents, and however they may avail themselves of assistance, they have to answer for it if their children have acquired patterns of ungodly behaviour from those who were entrusted with the formation of their character. In this sense, education is the inculcation of wisdom, and is broader and deeper than vocational training.
A third thing people mean by "education" is learning - an acquisition of knowledge for the love of the subject. This, again, is obviously something that is best picked up by those who have attained to a good measure of learning in their particular subject. With some of the less applied sciences, or the humanities generally, this is what ought to be imparted.
Now as Lewis points out, part of the trickiness is that a measure of "learning" is regarded as essential polish in finishing an "education" - a gentleman's character is not really fully formed if he doesn't go down to University and obtain a degree. That naturally means that a lot of people get sent down to University who don't love the subject, and are impatient of learning, and at most want some vocational training. But the decline of the university because of the prevalence of people going to college is a subject for another time. For now, it seems that people would be helped by considering what aspect of "education" they are considering.
When you homeschool, obviously the formation of character is a major concern. I doubt there are many teachers in school who refrain from forming character, and of course in any school, public or private, it's going to be somewhat hit or miss whether you get a teacher whose efforts in forming character will not undermine your own. This leaves open the possibility for people to have a good experience (as many undoubtedly have).
Of course, when you homeschool you can't simply neglect learning and vocational training. So either you find a way to do that yourself (sometimes well, sometimes badly), you postpone it until the child has left home, or you supplement in those areas with people of skill and learning.
It is ungodly to allow your child's character to be formed by teachers promoting books about two daddies. It is not ungodly to allow your child to learn long division from those same teachers. But the difficulty arises in trying to figure out how to trust that the teacher will either not pass from training to education - from imparting knowledge and skill to forming character, or that he will do so only in an acceptable way. Because these neat divisions cannot be entirely maintained in real life; but that is why Christian parents need to do their best to make sure that they are the fundamental, formative force in their childrens' characters, and that their formation is Biblically sound; so that any bleed-through from trainers or academics can be processed by the children. But this perspective does allow for cases where other educators have earned a position of trust, or where the matter to be learned, or the process of learning is such that additional help is required. So a homeschooled girl of my acquaintance goes to therapy with a non-Christian to assist in her dyslexia: but it is her parents who set her norms of conduct and teach her about right and wrong.
One thing people sometimes mean by "education" is vocational training. Learning skills that can be used - the mechanic arts, computer literacy, etc. I think it will be generally acknowledged that the main thing here is to learn from someone who knows his stuff. Law school or medical school or (excuse me) seminary are vocational training. They attempt to give you the knowledge and skills to do a certain job adequately.
Another part of what people mean by "education" is the formation of character (Lewis reserves "education" for this aspect). I hope it would be generally agreed that farming this out to the ungodly or the ill-informed is a bad idea. This relates to questions of right and wrong, and how you react in the face of them. This is clearly the responsibility of parents, and however they may avail themselves of assistance, they have to answer for it if their children have acquired patterns of ungodly behaviour from those who were entrusted with the formation of their character. In this sense, education is the inculcation of wisdom, and is broader and deeper than vocational training.
A third thing people mean by "education" is learning - an acquisition of knowledge for the love of the subject. This, again, is obviously something that is best picked up by those who have attained to a good measure of learning in their particular subject. With some of the less applied sciences, or the humanities generally, this is what ought to be imparted.
Now as Lewis points out, part of the trickiness is that a measure of "learning" is regarded as essential polish in finishing an "education" - a gentleman's character is not really fully formed if he doesn't go down to University and obtain a degree. That naturally means that a lot of people get sent down to University who don't love the subject, and are impatient of learning, and at most want some vocational training. But the decline of the university because of the prevalence of people going to college is a subject for another time. For now, it seems that people would be helped by considering what aspect of "education" they are considering.
When you homeschool, obviously the formation of character is a major concern. I doubt there are many teachers in school who refrain from forming character, and of course in any school, public or private, it's going to be somewhat hit or miss whether you get a teacher whose efforts in forming character will not undermine your own. This leaves open the possibility for people to have a good experience (as many undoubtedly have).
Of course, when you homeschool you can't simply neglect learning and vocational training. So either you find a way to do that yourself (sometimes well, sometimes badly), you postpone it until the child has left home, or you supplement in those areas with people of skill and learning.
It is ungodly to allow your child's character to be formed by teachers promoting books about two daddies. It is not ungodly to allow your child to learn long division from those same teachers. But the difficulty arises in trying to figure out how to trust that the teacher will either not pass from training to education - from imparting knowledge and skill to forming character, or that he will do so only in an acceptable way. Because these neat divisions cannot be entirely maintained in real life; but that is why Christian parents need to do their best to make sure that they are the fundamental, formative force in their childrens' characters, and that their formation is Biblically sound; so that any bleed-through from trainers or academics can be processed by the children. But this perspective does allow for cases where other educators have earned a position of trust, or where the matter to be learned, or the process of learning is such that additional help is required. So a homeschooled girl of my acquaintance goes to therapy with a non-Christian to assist in her dyslexia: but it is her parents who set her norms of conduct and teach her about right and wrong.
a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
Much as I would hope to homeschool children if we had them, I have homeschooled a foster child, and while he actually learned to read and to add (something he had not learned in the public school system [special ed] though he was in the 5th grade), it was incredibly difficult and I relapsed into mono with the stress and exhaustion. For some mothers it is best to have help (there is no command in Scripture for the wife to teach the children trades or knowledge of special subjects: the virtuous woman, in all the activities listed, does not appear to have homeschooled those who rose up and called her blessed). Since I am not convicted that the Bible mandates homeschooling when it mandates training our children, I would be open to considering other options, depending on the child and the options.
Scottish Lass
Puritan Board Doctor
Heidi, I would also venture that jumping in the middle would be more difficult than starting from the beginning.
Ruben one thing came to mind: do you trust the parents to form the character of their children before the child ever sets foot in a classroom? Kids are in school to learn about math, about languages, music, art and science. Mom and dad should be teaching them character every day.
a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
Anna, I can venture to hope that is quite true now (and I had a much better experience teaching the alphabet etc. to the little girl I nannied previously), but at the time I was so sick and scarcely able to function that it was difficult to imagine 
. Thanks though, for that encouraging reminder. I do think special ed situations will always be more difficult and that the mother may need more help -- though they may also be more critical, with the extra attention the children require: I think the mothers I know who are doing this daily deserve a medal (their children are of course, not so much notable for academics, social skills -- though there are other areas of sweetness etc -- but they don't have that sort of reward -- and it can tend to be pretty disheartening in general).
. Thanks though, for that encouraging reminder. I do think special ed situations will always be more difficult and that the mother may need more help -- though they may also be more critical, with the extra attention the children require: I think the mothers I know who are doing this daily deserve a medal (their children are of course, not so much notable for academics, social skills -- though there are other areas of sweetness etc -- but they don't have that sort of reward -- and it can tend to be pretty disheartening in general).From feedback so far: I feel that either HS, Christian Private, or actually, there ARE (some) still decent Public schools systems. I think that any number of things could factor in which oddly would rule none of the options out for a Christian parent. Some have spoken of "mandate" indeed, Rueben wisely touched upon it. A mandate in this is in development of ethics and morality, this must emerge from :In this order, parents, the Church, Holy Writ. There is no mandate saying, HS, Private, Public. Indeed, good or ill can come from any of the 3 if the true mandates of family, church and scripture are not followed. In summation, I have met now those who have come from all 3 types of education. What is best? I cannot say, it would be sheer arrogance and foolishness for me to say simply given that too many factors are in play. ALL can can say with confidence is any child in any system must be first and foremost rooted and grounded in Christ Jesus and the Holy Word.
Blessings in the LORD.
Blessings in the LORD.O.K I know I will be a minority and maybe even looked down on, but that is o.k. I have four kids and public school three of them. The other child is just two years old. I and my wife are always involved in what is being taught and the teachers are always willing to let us know or review the materials they are teaching our kids. My wife has been able to have a big impact in our school, both with the teachers, children and administration. She even began a after school Bible study on Monday's using the schools property. (It has been upheld in the supreme courts in other cases) The principal and many of there teachers have even let their kids attend the bible study. Every thing she teaches is Reformed and she even includes the WSC. I say this just to let you know I think private school is and should not always be ruled out. Through my wife's ministry other kids have herd the Gospel and some have showed signs of repentance. Praise God!!! Sure my kids are around kids that have less desirable background, sure my kids get some of the worldly education. But in each case I and my wife can use this to educate my kids with the Bible. You may ask if I am afraid the the other kids will have a bad influence on my kids, sure but even if you private school or H.S. it still comes down to sin is a matter of the heart and no matter what what hedge you put in front of them they are still sinners in need of Grace. I worry and pray every day, but my kids have even witnessed with the kids the befriend. When my son was in first grade a kid came into his class. This kid had a lot of learning problems and many kids would not pay attention to him. The teacher placed this kid next to my son. She told my wife that she knew my son would be a good influence on him and would help him in his studies. That may be a little thing, but both the teacher and this boy have been influence by what we teach my son from the scriptures. The public school can be tough, but there are many kids there in need of the Gospel. I just add this so you may reconsider your statement the Public School is not a option. Daniel had worldly education, but by Gods Grace he made an impact along with some of his friends. I ask you to pray for public school and think twice before you jump to conclusions.
Curt
Puritan Board Graduate
From feedback so far: I feel that either HS, Christian Private, or actually, there ARE (some) still decent Public schools systems. I think that any number of things could factor in which oddly would rule none of the options out for a Christian parent. Some have spoken of "mandate" indeed, Rueben wisely touched upon it. A mandate in this is in development of ethics and morality, this must emerge from :In this order, parents, the Church, Holy Writ. There is no mandate saying, HS, Private, Public. Indeed, good or ill can come from any of the 3 if the true mandates of family, church and scripture are not followed. In summation, I have met now those who have come from all 3 types of education. What is best? I cannot say, it would be sheer arrogance and foolishness for me to say simply given that too many factors are in play. ALL can can say with confidence is any child in any system must be first and foremost rooted and grounded in Christ Jesus and the Holy Word.
As a parent who home-educated my two daughters, have taught in public and private schools, and advocated for education that is Christian around the world, let me add my two cents. Yes, we (parents) are the ones who are to be in control of the children God has given to us to raise. This may be done by totally doing it at home or by sub-contracting parts of it. The key is to be involved and be in charge. None of the options is inherently evil or sinful. As with many things in life, the keys are obedience and heart condition.
That's a difficult question, Gail. A lot of it depends on when the child is setting foot in the classroom. Recollecting myself at age 5, for instance, a large part of my character was still unformed. Formation takes time.
Of course parents are to be teaching character every day; that's not negotiable, no matter what your situation is. But part of being wise about teaching character is recognizing that some things are bad influences that your child is too weak or foolish or simply young to resist appropriately. And teachers can be one of those influences. Because the way they teach science (or whatever), or the way they deal with disciplinary issues in the class can be deleterious.
I agree a bad teacher can be a nightmare. So can a parent who is ill equipped, abusive, selfish or cruel not to mention lazy. And there are plenty of examples of good and bad in all three systems of education. If your child is being taught something detrimental then it is the parent's responsibility to act wisely in the interest of the child.
a mere housewife
Not your cup of tea
I think most people who struggle with the normal discouragements of an old nature could tell you that homeschooling a child who has a learning disorder is often discouraging on both scores, and that it can even hurt to be around other people's homeschooled children. I had to give up my ideas that people were going to come up to me and say, 'Wow, your child is so brilliant! And you homeschool.' or 'Your child is so well behaved -- how do you do it?' You struggle and struggle with the same behavioural issues over every single aspect of the child's day, and it's a major victory to do something that is even three or four levels behind what many other children his age are doing in school. Your own pride has to take quite a backseat in the matter, because in all likelihood it isn't going to have the kind of gratification that is involved when your child publicly excels. And more discouragingly, you often aren't going to see the progress yourself day to day.
In my experience there is quite a depth of sweetness in many special ed children, though, that only those who work closely with them know and are rewarded by. I would sincerely love to do foster care again, and if we do, I am more than open to having a special needs child. I am not sure I would insist on homeschooling them (though I would certainly work with them at home) this time, though, if there were other options -- given how difficult I know this is, and my own limitations; there is only so much I personally can do; and I would want to be careful to do that part as well as I am able.
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The greatest gift a parent or foster parent can give a special needs child In my humble opinion is to homeschool them, or at the very least stay at home with them and bring in tutors to help. Over the years, I have observed special needs children who were sent off to public schools vs. those who were kept at home and generally speaking those who were kept at home and given the extra love have faired far better than those who were dumped into a program.
Regarding your comments about homeschooling a special needs child, I agree. It can be very painful to watch other children excel and yours struggle day after day. The rewards of working with them are great.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
Another facet of this is providing the influence at the age that the child can use it. I can hammer away at maturity issues with my 6 year old but it simply won't take fully right now. I must plant the seed, I must water as he grows, but at the end of the day, he needs my input all along, because I have to be watering the whole way along. That's one more reason we teach as we do, because though we have already planted, watering is a continuous activity. I don't think I could compete using the few hours a day I would have with my child versus the eight he'd get with his peers/teachers if he went to school. I don't want them doing the watering; what they give him may be toxic, and it is my responsibility to make sure that he is getting what God intends. Yes, this can be found at a Christian school, but the chance of it being found in a public school is almost nil.
Scottish Lass
Puritan Board Doctor
And for the record, as an early responder to the OP, I am a product of public schools (K-university), taught public school for six years, private for one, and teach at a homeschool co-op currently.
That's another reason your question is difficult: there are most certainly lots of parents whom one does not wish to trust with forming the character of their children. But that character formation is a duty that God has given to them: their failures in that line do not change the fact of that duty. At the end of the day that any child is formed into anything other than a quivering ball of selfish psychoses is rather amazing; but the fact that God's grace overrides circumstances and disadvantages doesn't mean that parents aren't responsible for doing their level best.
Adam's Eve
Puritan Board Freshman
I was homeschooled, and I have to say that my Mom couldn't teach us the calculus stuff, and all that, but what we did come away from school with was a good work ethic, and the ability to think independently. We lived on a farm, and had to care for animals, vegetables, etc, which taught us responsibility, and my dad also had a home business, which taught us where our money came from... the work of our hands! I think these things are very important, besides the obvious training and discipling in God's word.
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