Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
Ha. Yeah, that comment would bother me. I've got two, and I feel like my quiver is rather full!
Looking for wise advice on Birth Control and inlaws
- Thread starter jjraby
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Ha. Yeah, that comment would bother me. I've got two, and I feel like my quiver is rather full!
puritanpilgrim
Puritan Board Junior
Why especially the reporductive system.
What are the serious flaws in trusting God to take care of my family? Is there scripture to back this up?
SarahM
Puritan Board Freshman
My brother has four boys and I have people asking me, "Are they going to have more?" or "Do they want more?" Well, how should I know! I don't know why people ask me that question. I don't think it's anyone's business. I have my own assumption, but I am not going to tell.
Also, to have people say, "only two kids! Why not more?" to some couples is not very kind. I know some couples who have gone through a lot just to get those two children. I would like to have a big family, but then again, I don't know if that's what God wants. As in all things, it's good just to hold it loosely.
Jaymin Allen
Puritan Board Freshman
Hey Jeremy,
Typically, I am not the largest endorser of John Piper articles-- however I found this article to be exceedingly helpful. The tenets explored are:
1. Is birth control consistent with the truth that children are a gift from the Lord?
2. Shouldn't we let God determine the size of our family?
3. Should natural family planning be preferred to artificial conception?
Does the Bible permit birth control? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Richard, why do you presume that every act of intimacy leads to pregnancy? There are other factors that must be at play in order for the woman to get pregnant, such as ovulation must be occuring.
brianeschen
Puritan Board Junior
One thing that I wish I would have kept in mind early in our marriage . . . though you may disagree with your in-laws, remember that they are concerned for your best. On your part, don't let this drive a wedge between you.
Micah
Puritan Board Freshman
Just listened to this.
Wow! Regardless of your opinion of Mark Driscoll, this is the absolute best handling of birth control I've EVER heard.
Thank you so much for sharing this brother.
As long as there's no medical problem, I'd say there's no "good" time to have a baby -- you don't have enough money; your wife is making great money and doesn't want to quit. You're too young. You're too old. You don't have a big enough house, etc., etc., etc. Unless you are destitute, you'll find a way to deal with the expenses of having children. I can think of nothing more exciting than hearing my kids speak God's name and see his love to a thousand generations. As for your inlaws? Forgetaboutit!
The morning after pill is simply a strong dose of birth control pills, and is completely different from RU-486. However while almost all Christians would agree that RU486, which is designed to be a chemical abortifacient, there is less consensus on regular hormonal birth control. The idea is that the pill has three mechanisms for "preventing" pregnancy, but only two of them are actually preventative. It even says this on the packaging for the pill- the third mechanism is by stopping already fertilized embryos (human life) from implanting in the uterus. This, in my opinion, is an abortion. The issue is that no one knows how often this actually happens. Most doctors say it's probably rare, in the 2-5% region, because the other two mechanisms work so well. But a 2-5% of abortion is totally unacceptable to me, and so I would not take the pill.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Sadie, this is exactly the reason my wife and I have deemed the pill unacceptable.
christiana
Puritan Board Senior
These safety concerns are the main reason I never took the pill. The pill must be viewed with caution and concern about the side effects.
Birth Control Pill Safety Concerns
Birth Control Pill Safety Concerns
YXU
Puritan Board Freshman
It is not explicitely stated in the scripture however, the ordinance of marriage itself is sufficient enough. It is between a man and a women, for their mutual benefit, to raise seeds and to prevent fornication as the confession states. The Bible never indicates that this relation has an independant purpose of gaining physical pleasure, the pleasure is to promote the raising of seeds. The ordiance is broken in a degree if the married couple only try to seek pleasure and physical relief from lust apart of raising seeds. This natrual order of marriage should also be the main reason against abortion.
On the other hand, the style of the Bible also shows that it is implicit over such issue. The Bible can talk openly about violence, bloody murder and war, but it is not so over this issue. This is another reason, while it is not explicitely mentioned in the Bible.
I don't agree with this. I think it's clear throughout the Bible that marital intimacy is for both children and pleasure and oneness. If you believe intercourse without the possibility of conception is wrong, then any sex after menopause or at the wrong time of cycle would be wrong, too.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't. In Scripture other purposes for relations are presented apart from pregnancy.
The couple don't have to intend to become pregnant in order for relations to be moral. Under the view of those who are against contraception the couple have to intend to get pregnant while having relations, otherwise they are somehow being immoral.
XYU
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What about infertile couples? Should they have no (be forbidden) relations?
The Bible indicates that this relation is a special kind of "knowledge"
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
............whether or not the couple intend to have a baby or not, or have a baby or not, one of the purposes of relations is a special kind of knowledge that is for the married couple only.
If there wasn't this carnal/bodily "knowledge" associated with sexual relations, irespective of conception, why does Scripture put all these fences around them to maintain their sanctity?
If there wasn't this carnal/bodily "knowledge" associated with sexual relations, irespective of conception, why does Scripture put all these fences around them to maintain their sanctity?
How sure are you that this is true? I am looking up Loestrin and cant find that but now you have me worried!
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
Don't back down, but don't go out of your way to be offensive (some do!) Children are a blessing from the Lord, and He open and closes the womb. You understand that. Give them your theological reasoning for it. Then let that sink in. Then leave it - let them start something, but you don't have to. Answer in love. You can afford the children. You can always afford the children. Do you have the shoulders to train them? If you have the children, that is a great responsibility. You will find yourself spending a whole lot of time in prayer that you wouldn't otherwise (and at odd times, too). You will clean up a lot of vomit, urine, and fecal matter. You will spend hours and hours on explaining Scripture and Catechism to your children. You will have indescribable pain and indescribable joy.
Go forth in faith.
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Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Tyler, sorry I don't have a link or anything to support the above, but it is exactly what the physician's assist told my wife and I when we explored contraceptives. The PA wasn't trying to encourage/discourage us from the pill, she was just giving us facts (according to her) on how they work. Needless to say, while unintentional, she most certainly discouraged us.
puritanpilgrim
Puritan Board Junior
Well stated brother.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Jeremy - you are wise to want their support. Contrary to what has been said above, what you and your wife do ISN'T "none of their business." Or to restate, your wife's parents (and your parents) don't stop being concerned about you just because you get married, and they certainly don't stop from giving guidance and counsel (or criticism!) when they perceive you are activing foolishly. Given that Scripture spells out duties and responsibilities for grandparents, I'd say that contrary to what some here evidently think, they have a legitimate place for voicing their concerns to you about their future grandchildren.
You'll get many opinions about the legitimacy of any form of birth control, and I make no bones about it - it is folly to argue that just because something is a "good gift and a blessing" that it automatically implies there isn't a place for wisdom and being prudent about when we obtain it. Perhaps you two are quite poor and both of you are working just to keep your heads above water... $10 for a pack of condoms sounds to me like a good shortterm investment! Or maybe you two are doing better than you think and you've bought into the sinful line that you've got to be "established" in your career and able to give your kids "the best" before you think of having them... if that's the case, then repent! Having kids, and raising them, costs far less than people would have you believe.
Regarding your inlaws and their reaction to your wife getting pregnant... something tells me that they might initially say "why now!" but then they'll quickly get over it. But don't disregard them as if they don't matter one bit and that they'd better just bow before you, the almighty husband of their daughter, and beg for the ability to see her or your kids or have a place in their lives.
YXU
Puritan Board Freshman
The prevention of fornication is indeed the purpose of marriage. However, it is a totally different thing to prevent fornication while destroying the hope of raising seeds which is another purpose of marriage.
---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------
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What about infertile couples? Should they have no (be forbidden) relations?
The Bible indicates that this relation is a special kind of "knowledge"[/QUOTE]
I know of some Christians who reject the State mandated one-child-policy, and some surgical procedures were forced on the mother at the delivery of their second child by the doctor, making them infertile. However, not having the physical ability to raise seeds and to destroy the hope and possibility of raising seeds is a totally different thing.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
No, the prevention of fornication is only one purpose of marriage. Douglas Wilson's book Reforming Marriage states: "The Bible sets forth three basic earthly reasons for marriage. They are, in turn, the need for helpful companionship, the need for godly offspring, and the avoidance of sexual immorality."
I know Wilson misses the mark on some things, but I believe he hits it here.
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
I think many of us hear comments from family. My grandma, who had four children plus a miscarriage in five years (so far, I'm behind her) told me that I look Catholic. I just laugh and say, "I know." And when people ask how many children I want, I just say, "I'm not sure but I hope we'll have another." Or if they ask do I know how I made those babies, I just laugh it off. You may feel singularly persecuted for listening to your conscience, but you are not alone and I think it is an easy enough scoffing to evade, being the personal nature of the topic. People don't want to get too involved in your bedroom, thankfully.
On a more mature note, I have heard of someone saying to her mother, "Would you deny me this blessing?" and the mother's own conscience must have been grieved at that, for she shared the testimony with other scoffers. I think parents and family are also selfishly thinking about their own image, and they are embarrassed by association. I let my family think we are the crazy ones in the family, and that gives them an out.
I created this procreation vs. reproduction timeline from a talk that was very helpful to me.
(None of the ideas are mine.)
On a more mature note, I have heard of someone saying to her mother, "Would you deny me this blessing?" and the mother's own conscience must have been grieved at that, for she shared the testimony with other scoffers. I think parents and family are also selfishly thinking about their own image, and they are embarrassed by association. I let my family think we are the crazy ones in the family, and that gives them an out.
I created this procreation vs. reproduction timeline from a talk that was very helpful to me.
(None of the ideas are mine.)
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Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
XYU
It's not for the state to decide how many children a couple should have.
You said that the purpose of procreation should never be separated from sexual relations i.e. the couple is immoral if they are not trying for a baby every time they have sexual relations.
I don't find this in the Bible, and those who for physical reasons can't have a baby - and know that - must be immoral when they have sexual relations purely to know one another. Do you think that this bodily knowledge is important enough that it should be independently followed when the couple can't have children? This contradicts your argument.
It's not for the state to decide how many children a couple should have.
You said that the purpose of procreation should never be separated from sexual relations i.e. the couple is immoral if they are not trying for a baby every time they have sexual relations.
I don't find this in the Bible, and those who for physical reasons can't have a baby - and know that - must be immoral when they have sexual relations purely to know one another. Do you think that this bodily knowledge is important enough that it should be independently followed when the couple can't have children? This contradicts your argument.
Hebrew Student
Puritan Board Freshman
jjraby,
First of all, I think that it is wonderful that you are stopping this particular contraceptive because it can be an abortifacient. God's command to not murder must become first and foremost.
Second, there are other options for birth control which you can look into.
Thirdly, I do think there needs to be concern for not having children apart from your budget, and while it is true that children are a blessing, the wisdom literature always talks about the enjoyment of God's many blessings [one of which are children] within the confines of liminality. However, I don't think that would apply in your context. The passage I like to use to show this is Proverbs 25:16, and I think it will lay out the differences:
Proverbs 25:16 Have you found honey? Eat only what you need, That you not have it in excess and vomit it.
This text is, indeed, talking about blessings, and it is doing so by pointing out that one cannot be open to just accepting anything simply because it is a blessing. Otherwise, to continue the analogy with children, you will get sick, and vomit financially or in terms of health problems. One has to know what one's "need" is, that is, how much one can take. That concept is all over the wisdom literature.
However, here is why I don't think it applies in this instance. There is no Biblical command that you are breaking by not eating more honey in the above text. The issue, in your instance, is that, by taking the pill, you are doing the wrong thing [taking an abortifacient pill] for the right reason [a desire to exercise liminality]. Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still doing the wrong thing. Even though our motives might be pure, we still cannot blatantly break one of God's commands.
Imagine the child who is tired of his friend being bullied, so he steals his parents handgun, and, when the bully starts punching the daylights out of his friend, he takes out the handgun, and shoots the bully dead. While the child was right to want to stop the bullying of his friend, the way he went about it was totally immoral. In the same way, the desire to exercise liminality is good, but not if you do so by murdering an innocent child.
Hence, I would tell your inlaws that, because you are a Christian, you could not use a pill in good contience that violates God's command against murder. Further tell them that God has promised that if we are faithful in obedience to him, then he will be faithful to us. If you get pregnant as a result of having to switch your birth control, then know that you did it out of obedience to God, and he will take care of those who are faithful to him.
God Bless,
Adam
First of all, I think that it is wonderful that you are stopping this particular contraceptive because it can be an abortifacient. God's command to not murder must become first and foremost.
Second, there are other options for birth control which you can look into.
Thirdly, I do think there needs to be concern for not having children apart from your budget, and while it is true that children are a blessing, the wisdom literature always talks about the enjoyment of God's many blessings [one of which are children] within the confines of liminality. However, I don't think that would apply in your context. The passage I like to use to show this is Proverbs 25:16, and I think it will lay out the differences:
Proverbs 25:16 Have you found honey? Eat only what you need, That you not have it in excess and vomit it.
This text is, indeed, talking about blessings, and it is doing so by pointing out that one cannot be open to just accepting anything simply because it is a blessing. Otherwise, to continue the analogy with children, you will get sick, and vomit financially or in terms of health problems. One has to know what one's "need" is, that is, how much one can take. That concept is all over the wisdom literature.
However, here is why I don't think it applies in this instance. There is no Biblical command that you are breaking by not eating more honey in the above text. The issue, in your instance, is that, by taking the pill, you are doing the wrong thing [taking an abortifacient pill] for the right reason [a desire to exercise liminality]. Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still doing the wrong thing. Even though our motives might be pure, we still cannot blatantly break one of God's commands.
Imagine the child who is tired of his friend being bullied, so he steals his parents handgun, and, when the bully starts punching the daylights out of his friend, he takes out the handgun, and shoots the bully dead. While the child was right to want to stop the bullying of his friend, the way he went about it was totally immoral. In the same way, the desire to exercise liminality is good, but not if you do so by murdering an innocent child.
Hence, I would tell your inlaws that, because you are a Christian, you could not use a pill in good contience that violates God's command against murder. Further tell them that God has promised that if we are faithful in obedience to him, then he will be faithful to us. If you get pregnant as a result of having to switch your birth control, then know that you did it out of obedience to God, and he will take care of those who are faithful to him.
God Bless,
Adam
Idelette
Puritan Board Graduate
You know, I was thinking about this statement and it is actually quite ironic, because it supports the view of not using bc pills. Scripture makes it very clear, especially in the commandments, that God considers life to be a good and precious thing. This would be the positive aspect of the sixth commandment. Not only are we to not murder, but we are also to do all things to promote and protect life. So it would be consistent for those that hold life dearly to do these things. It is actually inconsistent for those that use seat belts and lock their doors and yet have no problem using bc pills. Because, ultimately they are placing more value on their own life, but not on the potential life that they prevent from coming. Just some food for thought.....
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