Married: Going out to dinner

[blhowes]

If you're married now, have you ever been in a situation where it was almost expected that you'd go out to dinner with a member of the opposite sex? Just wondering how you reacted and, if you didn't go out, how you explained it.

Here's why I ask. Last week I was on a business trip with two of my managers, one of whom is a lady. The three of us went out to dinner the first night - no problem. On the second day, the male manager had a fire he had to put out back at the office, so he was asked to fly back home immediately. That left me and the lady manager. On the next two evenings after finishing work, she asked if/where I'd like to go for dinner. I opted not to go, but went to the grocery store to get something so I could eat in the hotel room.

This afternoon, I went in for my annual review with the male manager. After we finished, he said he wanted to ask me a question, and it was fine if I didn't answer. Apparrently, the lady manager was curious why I didn't want to go out. The male manager is the same manager I had at my previous company, and asked if it was for the same reasons I wouldn't at the old company. I told him it was.

He didn't pursue it any further, but if he did (or if the lady manager asked me), I'm not sure how I'd go about explaining it. Have you ever been in a similar situation and had to explain yourself?

Do you think I was wrong not going out?

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Do you think I was wrong not going out?

No. You did the right thing. And if they ask you simply say, "I appreciate the invitation but I'm married and as a rule don't have dinner with women other than my wife." If that ticks them off, then O well. You have to trust that God will reward your faithfulness.

 

[Scott1]

Probably you are not wrong in declining.

It's not wise to go out with a member of the opposite gender alone, if they are anywhere close to your age. A child or elderly person might be fine.

Also, I think it is okay going out in groups.

But, always be wise, and communicate with your spouse so trouble doesn't start.

 

[jwithnell]

While on the road, I've had dinner with male colleagues and not thought much about it. As a rule, I'd arrive separately, go somewhere mundane, and keep conversation focused on work. I'd eat like I would anywhere, nodding my head for a quick prayer before eating and drinking little if at all. Quite frankly, the only time I had any trouble was in a large group where the guy to my left tried to hit on me all evening. Bleh!

 

[JoyFullMom]

A different perspective...I have a single female cousin who must travel for business. She has said time and time again how GRATEFUL she is for the faithful, upright men she occasionally travels with because she feels that she can then *safely* go to dinner, knowing they will not come on to her, nor will they allow someone *else* to. She also appreciates that they see that she gets to the restaurant and back to her hotel safely. There are definitely *other* married men that she does NOT trust and some who will not eat with her because she is single and they are married. She respects them, but wishes they could see they she is just looking for their protection. I realize that women like her are likely rare...but...just a different viewpoint to share.

 

[Montanablue]

A different perspective...I have a single female cousin who must travel for business. She has said time and time again how GRATEFUL she is for the faithful, upright men she occasionally travels with because she feels that she can then *safely* go to dinner, knowing they will not come on to her, nor will they allow someone *else* to. She also appreciates that they see that she gets to the restaurant and back to her hotel safely. There are definitely *other* married men that she does NOT trust and some who will not eat with her because she is single and they are married. She respects them, but wishes they could see they she is just looking for their protection. I realize that women like her are likely rare...but...just a different viewpoint to share.

Thank you for sharing that, Polly.

I would never want anyone to violate their conscience or do something that would make their wife uncomfortable, so I certainly respect when my male colleagues eat by themselves. But on a few occasions when we've been out of town for business, its nice not to have to lunch alone for the reasons listed by Polly. So, I appreciate men who are willing to accompany me to meal.

Also, (I'm not accusing anyone on the PB of this, I would be shocked if any of you had done this), sometimes married men assume that a single woman is "after" them - or they make it sound that way when they decline to go to what is certainly only a business meal. That's insulting, ungracious, and should be avoided. A polite, "Thank you, but I'd prefer to eat in tonight" is all that is needed. Long winded explanations become awkward quickly.

 

[Pergamum]

Question: In this age of cell phones and Triple A and well-lit and safe places in the West to eat, is there any need for male accompaniment of a woman before she feels "safe"?

Also, one poster above stated that a man hit on her repeatedly. Under what circumstances would such a thing be tolerated even twice?


Call me jealous, but my wife isn't eating with another man unless he's 90 or a close relative. And if another man knew that she was married and hit on her, I would "hit on" him.

 

[jjraby]

Question: In this age of cell phones and Triple A and well-lit and safe places in the West to eat, is there any need for male accompaniment of a woman before she feels "safe"?

Also, one poster above stated that a man hit on her repeatedly. Under what circumstances would such a thing be tolerated even twice?


Call me jealous, but my wife isn't eating with another man unless he's 90 or a close relative. And if another man knew that she was married and hit on her, I would "hit on" him.

Yes there are plenty of places that a light, a cell phone, and triple A aren't going to do anything to stop certain people. I'm just saying, There are places i will not let my wife go alone even if its broad daylight, her cellphone is charged and triple A is 30 seconds away. I say this because a friend of mine was raped, and according to them, it was over within 3-4 minutes. The police in my town have a must longer response time than that. So i can see where a small woman would not feel safe alone.

 

[Pergamum]

It would seem that the statistical probability of being raped if one takes appropriate safeguards while in the US is much less than the number of broken marriages or affairs that begin through unwise decisions or being alone with the opposite sex in contexts that are normally reserved for married or dating couples.

 

[JoyFullMom]

It is not the dinner that breaks the marriage. It is what is already in the heart that would lead to it, dinner or not, In my humble opinion.

Please don't misunderstand, I am NOT saying that there should not be wisdom used and an ability to discern the other person as well as the atmosphere that is chosen for the meal. But, this is not something that suddenly just *happens* beyond control. Calculated choices are made.

If a person is someone who would be tempted, or if the counterpart is one who is behaving in a way that you know it would be a problem, then OF COURSE you wouldn't go! If you are already struggling and dissatisfied, then OF COURSE you better not go. But, I do not think it is *always* wrong.

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

I am also assuming this is not a *common* thing with the *same two people*.

 

[Montanablue]

It would seem that the statistical probability of being raped if one takes appropriate safeguards while in the US is much less than the number of broken marriages or affairs that begin through unwise decisions or being alone with the opposite sex in contexts that are normally reserved for married or dating couples.

I agree with you. My concern is not so much that I'm going to be raped (especially since whenever I'm out of town its to a local library consortium meeting in another small Montana town). Its frankly just more convenient to not eat alone as a woman. Guys hit on you, they give you appraising looks, make sly comments etc. Part of it may be the ratio of uncouth cowboys to women in the towns I frequent, but I would suspect this happens a lot everywhere?

Like Polly said, I would NEVER want to cause a problem in a marriage or make someone violate their conscience. I'm never offended when one of my male colleagues doesn't eat with me. But it really is nice when we can just have a normal business lunch and I appreciate when its not looked upon with such suspicion.

 

[he beholds]

i would prefer my husband not go to dinner alone with another woman. and it really has nothing to do with me trusting him; instead it's because i know that it'd stir up jealousy in me. and that is less healthy for our marriage than him eating alone.
sure, it may be my issue, but it's what would happen.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Call me jealous, but my wife isn't eating with another man unless he's 90 or a close relative. And if another man knew that she was married and hit on her, I would "hit on" him.

Pergamum, I have never agreed with you more! Amen to THAT!

---------- Post added at 08:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

It would seem that the statistical probability of being raped if one takes appropriate safeguards while in the US is much less than the number of broken marriages or affairs that begin through unwise decisions or being alone with the opposite sex in contexts that are normally reserved for married or dating couples.

You are on FIRE!

 

[Scott1]

Here's the difficult thing.

We can create an opportunity for sin to get a foothold, if not for the one, for the other. We can create an appearance of impropriety, whether judged by a spouse, or by others.

I Thessalonians 5

21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Part of a man's responsibility is to protect a woman even from the appearance of impropriety.

While we might wish it to be otherwise, while it might be easier otherwise,

let's not kid ourselves that sin can be self deceiving. Ordinarily, members of opposite gender, at least of similar age, ought not seek to be in intimate settings (like eating together, alone, unaccountable at a restaurant).

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

I keep thinking, 100 years ago, this wouldn't even be a question.

 

[Pergamum]

It would seem that the statistical probability of being raped if one takes appropriate safeguards while in the US is much less than the number of broken marriages or affairs that begin through unwise decisions or being alone with the opposite sex in contexts that are normally reserved for married or dating couples.

I agree with you. My concern is not so much that I'm going to be raped (especially since whenever I'm out of town its to a local library consortium meeting in another small Montana town). Its frankly just more convenient to not eat alone as a woman. Guys hit on you, they give you appraising looks, make sly comments etc. Part of it may be the ratio of uncouth cowboys to women in the towns I frequent, but I would suspect this happens a lot everywhere?

Like Polly said, I would NEVER want to cause a problem in a marriage or make someone violate their conscience. I'm never offended when one of my male colleagues doesn't eat with me. But it really is nice when we can just have a normal business lunch and I appreciate when its not looked upon with such suspicion.

Kathleen,

Are you saying that, in order to prevent guys who are not your husband from hitting on you, that you would go out to eat with a guy that is not your husband (nor 90 years old or a close relative)?

 

[satz]

Assuming she knows this person from work or elsewhere, he has displayed a reasonable amount of good character, and it is a one-off or rare thing, why would this be wrong?

 

[Andrew P.C.]

It is not the dinner that breaks the marriage. It is what is already in the heart that would lead to it, dinner or not, In my humble opinion.

This would actually be the biblical understanding of the depravity of man. It isn't the dinner, it's the heart.

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

Matthew 15
15 Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 “Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

i would prefer my husband not go to dinner alone with another woman. and it really has nothing to do with me trusting him; instead it's because i know that it'd stir up jealousy in me. and that is less healthy for our marriage than him eating alone.
sure, it may be my issue, but it's what would happen.

I'd say this is the majority view of most women. Well, from my experience of my wife, family, and church. I'd say as well that this would be sin from both sides. The husband is not to cause the wife to sin(by putting himself in inappropriate situations no matter what his intent or mindset is) nor is the wife to become jealous.

All in all, I would never put myself in a situation with a person of the opposite sex. I would just simply be blunt with them(this is how i am with anyone). I would tell them that I'm married and doing so would be inappropriate. If they get offended or think any different of you, remind yourself that you are part of a "Peculiar" people. You are a pilgrim in this world, on your pilgrimage to the Heavenly Jerusalem. Remind yourself that you are not there to appease other peoples feelings but rather on earth to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever".

(All scripture came from the NASB 1995 update).

 

[Pergamum]

Assuming she knows this person from work or elsewhere, he has displayed a reasonable amount of good character, and it is a one-off or rare thing, why would this be wrong?

Mark,

Statistically, her marriage would be safer if she did eat with a total stranger rather than a work-mate (no pun intended) or someone she knows closely.

Going out to eat with someone (unless it is a workplace cafeteria) is something one does with a wife or a girl-friend.

---------- Post added at 04:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 AM ----------

p.s.: I let my wife review this thread and she agrees with me. The only point of disagreement is that she even thinks it is improper to eat with someone else alone in a workplace cafeteria and said she would "have my hide" if I ever did that. I am her property and she's got the papers on me she says. She also points out the impropriety of how this looks to others. Finally, she stated to me the low statistical probability of being raped when being out alone and that most rapes in the West were by people known to the victim anyway, and that the American marriage is in GRAVE danger, about half of marriages ending in divorce... and this poses a much more serious threat then going out alone and eating alone (adding, "Why would you go out alone anyway if you felt unsafe...if you were home, eat at home or order in if travelling or at a hotel."). In short, she says she sees no excuse to eat dinner with anyone not her husband unless part of a very large group. So, my view is not merely the view of a neanderthal traditionalist.

 

[satz]

Assuming she knows this person from work or elsewhere, he has displayed a reasonable amount of good character, and it is a one-off or rare thing, why would this be wrong?

Mark,

Statistically, her marriage would be safer if she did eat with a total stranger rather than a work-mate (no pun intended) or someone she knows closely.

Going out to eat with someone (unless it is a workplace cafeteria) is something one does with a wife or a girl-friend.

---------- Post added at 04:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 AM ----------

p.s.: I let my wife review this thread and she agrees with me. The only point of disagreement is that she even thinks it is improper to eat with someone else alone in a workplace cafeteria and said she would "have my hide" if I ever did that. I am her property and she's got the papers on me she says. She also points out the impropriety of how this looks to others. Finally, she stated to me the low statistical probability of being raped when being out alone and that most rapes in the West were by people known to the victim anyway, and that the American marriage is in GRAVE danger, about half of marriages ending in divorce... and this poses a much more serious threat then going out alone and eating alone (adding, "Why would you go out alone anyway if you felt unsafe...if you were home, eat at home or order in if travelling or at a hotel."). In short, she says she sees no excuse to eat dinner with anyone not her husband unless part of a very large group. So, my view is not merely the view of a neanderthal traditionalist.

Hi Pergamum

I only mentioned them being work-mates as an example of how she might have at least a basic idea of the man's character, which I think would affect the propriety of the eating a meal with him. The bible says to come not near the door of the strange woman's house, not any woman...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Jack K]

I had a few business dinners with my (woman) boss in the last job I had. Business dinners are expected at times, especially among executive-types, and there are both men and women in those jobs. I think if I'd expressed any concerns she'd have been happy to meet in some other setting. But it really wasn't a problem.

Back before I was married, I had lunch and dinner with colleagues all the time when I worked as a TV news cameraman/producer. It was expected that you'd eat with the reporter you were with on the road, male or female. In fact, with the women especially I felt a bit protective and would have thought it wrong to leave them alone for a meal, as they were liable to get pounced on by "fans" or just hit on because invariably they were attractive women. In that business, a female reporter has to trust her cameraman and producer. Of course, a number of them do actually end up having flings with those guys. But nothing close to that ever happened with me. I wasn't that kind of guy, and everyone knew it.

 

[satz]

All in all, I would never put myself in a situation with a person of the opposite sex. I would just simply be blunt with them(this is how i am with anyone). I would tell them that I'm married and doing so would be inappropriate. If they get offended or think any different of you, remind yourself that you are part of a "Peculiar" people. You are a pilgrim in this world, on your pilgrimage to the Heavenly Jerusalem. Remind yourself that you are not there to appease other peoples feelings but rather on earth to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever".

(All scripture came from the NASB 1995 update).

Not sure I would agree that being blunt is the thing to do. Part of following God is also to live as peaceable with all men as you can (Rom 12:18). By all means avoid going to a meal alone with a person of the other sex, but unless there is a opporunity to really explain yourself in-depth, there are wiser and more God glorifying ways to explain yourself than basically accusing the other person of being a temptation to adultery.

 

[Theoretical]

If I was married and in this situation, if I went, I'd first send a text message or call my wife, and tell her to ask me how it went and what went on later that night. But truthfully, I'd be quite uncomfortable with it and speak as one not married.

I also think there's a big difference between lunch and dinner in social settings. A quick bite at a local cafe while on the lunch hour is more typical and much less eyebrow raising than a long dinner out.

On the other hand, if you both have wedding rings, observant people will assume you're married unless body language is pretty obvious. If the woman only has a ring on, then people will assume married or affair. If the man has a wedding ring on and the woman doesn't (single), they'll assume an affair. If neither does, they'll assume dating.

Everyone, observant or not, will assume they're a couple.

 

[satz]

On the other hand, if you both have wedding rings, observant people will assume you're married unless body language is pretty obvious. If the woman only has a ring on, then people will assume married or affair. If the man has a wedding ring on and the woman doesn't (single), they'll assume an affair. If neither does, they'll assume dating.

Everyone, observant or not, will assume they're a couple.

I am honestly extremely surprised to read that. Unless they are behaving in a obviously affectionate manner, if I saw two people of the opposite sex eating together I wouldn't assume anything either way, regardless of their rings (unless the place is some kind of fancy restaurant suited mainly for "special" dinners). Maybe they are a couple, maybe not. I don't think there would be a general assumption that they were, and at least in my experience I think most people I know would share my view.

 

[JBaldwin]

I keep thinking, 100 years ago, this wouldn't even be a question.

This reminds me of the way things were when I was single working in an established old neighborhood where the married men ate at the local dining club for executives that has been around since the early 1900s. Once, the men invited all the women in the office to lunch for Secretary Day. When we arrived at the dining club, we were ushered into a separate dining room. Our male co-workers did not even come in and sit with us during the meal. That was about 20 years ago, and even today while men and women executives will occasionally dine together there, the women executives usually eat in separate rooms from the men.

 

[Scottish Lass]

I don't think there would be a general assumption that they were, and at least in my experience I think most people I know would share my view.

Unless they're dressed in business attire with work stuff spread out, I assume two people eating an evening meal together to have a close relationship---either family or intimate. But maybe that's just me. Now at lunch, I tend to assume the other way---most couples aren't able to eat lunch out on a work day, I imagine.

 

[Tripel]

If I were to walk into a restaurant and see one of my male, married friends having a meal with a woman other than his wife, I would think it looks very strange. Even if I knew she was a coworker and there was no chance anything improper was going on, I'd still feel weird about it.

So if that's how I would feel about others, I can only assume some of my friends would feel the same about me.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

So, my view is not merely the view of a neanderthal traditionalist.

No, that's me!

But in all seriousness; married Christians (or non-Christians) should not be eating with people other than there spouse. If a woman is concerned about safety, she needs to plan ahead for that (i.e. plan to eat with a group, alone in a safe place, or in her room).

Adultery is typically between those who have some kind of a relationship; which makes work relationships particularly vulnerable. We aren't likely to commit adultery with a complete stranger, but with someone we know.

And while the real underlying cause of adultery is in the heart, we needn't afford the corruptions of our flesh an opportunity to act.

 

[TexanRose]

Well, I worked as a server in multiple restaurants. For a long time I worked the lunch shift, and I saw plenty of co-workers eating together. I certainly would not have assumed that a man and a woman eating together were in a relationship. It was usually pretty obvious when it was a business meal--the body language was quite different. However, I will point out that the business meals were usually at lunch time, and that perhaps eating together with someone at dinner time might create a different impression?

That said, I would personally feel uncomfortable eating a meal with someone of the opposite gender, and would probably find an excuse to avoid the situation.

 

[he beholds]

I'd say this is the majority view of most women. Well, from my experience of my wife, family, and church. I'd say as well that this would be sin from both sides. The husband is not to cause the wife to sin(by putting himself in inappropriate situations no matter what his intent or mindset is) nor is the wife to become jealous.

I know, that's why I said it would be my issue, because my husband is beyond trustworthy. However, I still think it isn't good for a marriage to have one half being jealous or accusative or even just feeling vulnerable. In the same way, I'd not eat out with a guy, unless it was during work and I had to or something, because I'd not want to let any jealous thought creep into my husband's head and bother him.