Married: Going out to dinner

[Jack K]

Everyone, observant or not, will assume they're a couple.

I don't think so. I think it depends on the situation, the restaurant, their behavior. When I've done the executive lunch thing, we've been in business suits. Even at dinner time, it looks like a business meal. Would it look better to meet in someone's office after hours or to go home with them, or to talk in a public place like a restaurant?

 

[fishingpipe]

I go on business trips a few times a year, and have some coming up in March, April, and May. It is always with mixed company of varying value systems. One thing I have noticed among folks in restaurant/bar settings is that there are many who couldn't care less if you have a wedding ring on your finger or not.

I've never been in a one on one setting for meals with a female co-worker or client, but I have walked female co-workers back to the hotel, etc, when asked for their safety. I'm not sure how much it helps in terms of letting the ladies know my situation, but most of my co-workers will tell you how I go on incessantly about my wife and kids, and almost all of them know I am very "religious." In a trip to Charlotte recently two of my co-workers (a So. Baptist and a Pentecostal) sat around a table with me at the Fox & Hound and we discussed theology for a couple of hours over drinks and a ton of food (well, the So. Baptist had a Sprite). Some of our co-workers would float in and out. It was a fun time.

As far as female safety mentioned earlier, I was a beat cop in a mid-size city for 6-years. I saw bad things happen in "good places" and "safe times of day" often. I harp on personal safety for my wife any time of day, anywhere she goes. I cannot think of one place I would consider her "perfectly safe" from danger when away from me, including the church parking lot. I do restrict her from going to some places, mostly at night and in locations such as shopping malls, Wal-Mart, etc. Common sense type of thinking. But I trust in God's good providence and do not hinder her, generally speaking.

 

[smhbbag]

To me, there is more to the issue than simply avoiding temptation to adultery and the appearance of evil. Those are important and valid.

Is there not also what I might call 'inappropriate friendship'? Even if one could establish that there is not a chance in a million of adultery, and that the situation would not reasonably appear as evil, there can still be a problem.

Even with those things in place, it rubs me the wrong way. I don't really want any female friends of similar age, whether from work or church or anywhere else. My desire for female friendship is more than satisfied by one woman.

I have had long friendships with most of the wives of my friends. With many of them, that friendship existed before they even met their husbands. I can talk, laugh, etc. with them, but without one of our spouses present, conversation just naturally becomes abbreviated. It's not awkward or weird - it's just understood that my friendship with them has fundamentally changed after marriage. I respect them, admire them, and enjoy their company in larger groups. But things are different, and that's not just okay - it's to be celebrated.

I'm quite thankful that the Lord has put me in a 99% male workplace so that this doesn't even come up.

 

[Edward]

A word of warning - guys, if you will go to a restaurant with a male coworker, but not a female, you might draw an EEO complaint that your company will not be happy to have to deal with.

 

[au5t1n]

I'm quite thankful that the Lord has put me in a 99% male workplace so that this doesn't even come up.

Which is pretty much the larger solution to this question on a societal level.

 

[Kevin]

This has been a very interesting thread for me. My wife & I have been discussing this issue for several days.

When I was in sales I ate with co-workers all of the time. Men, men & women, women, etc. And I honestly can not imagine how you could work in that field and NOT eat with women in a resturant. The idea that you could pre-select co-workers or clients based on sex is just, well unimaginable. The idea that you could stay in a city far from home & not eat with co-workers seems far-fetched. I can only imagine what they must think of the "snob from accounting, that thinks he is too good for us"!

I met with female clients 100's of times, possibly more then 2,000 times when were "alone". Only 2 times in all of those years did one of them act "unprofessional".

I honestly never thought twice about it. And neither did my wife.

Now that I am "in ministry" we have been re-thinking that. Today I drove a woman to Dr's appointments that is from a out of town church that I have preached at. When I talked to her I offered to drive her and to "get some lunch". That was me as a salesman. Just offer a bit more then is expected & the client will be thankful & ready to order. My wife pointed out that a single woman may read more into a offer of "lunch" from a pastor then what I expected. My wife said that since we do not have business relationship the "professional distance" that exists in the world of sales should not be assumed to exist.

She made a good point. So I took two of the kids with me.

 

[kvanlaan]

I keep thinking, 100 years ago, this wouldn't even be a question.

So true. There were cultural rules of propriety that were simply inviolate, and that was outside the church!

I worked for a company in China where most were single, and the one other guy that was married in the office was a huge flirt. There were many meetings, and some one on one meetings with female coworkers, some of whom were rather flirtatious (and no, they weren't chasing me, but it was simply behaviour that was too familiar to be appropriate). It made me rather uncomfortable most of the time, and I was glad to get out of that job. Elizabeth and I would talk about it, and there were areas of concern, because it was all 'part of the job'. I tried to make a point of not drinking much, because most did not try to hold back at all, and that makes for a bad situation. Even without the alcohol, it was still a very odd atmosphere. It's just not right.

 

[Tim]

However, I still think it isn't good for a marriage to have one half being jealous or accusative or even just feeling vulnerable.

Is it not good for one to be jealous for the attention received by their spouse, just as it is good for God to be jealous for worship that is due Him?

 

[KaphLamedh]

Do you think I was wrong not going out?

No. You did the right thing. And if they ask you simply say, "I appreciate the invitation but I'm married and as a rule don't have dinner with women other than my wife." If that ticks them off, then O well. You have to trust that God will reward your faithfulness.

 

[Scott1]

Good, thoughts, reflection and growth.

Some thoughts for those considering the same.

This has been a very interesting thread for me. My wife & I have been discussing this issue for several days.

Very important to consider one's spouse in this. As self centered creatures (all of us), we tend to view things in isolation.

We must consider real ways to love God (avoid even the appearance of evil)

and

love our neighbor (begins with our spouse).

Fallen creatures that we are, this is often the farthest thing from our mind.

When I was in sales I ate with co-workers all of the time. Men, men & women, women, etc. And I honestly can not imagine how you could work in that field and NOT eat with women in a resturant. The idea that you could pre-select co-workers or clients based on sex is just, well unimaginable. The idea that you could stay in a city far from home & not eat with co-workers seems far-fetched. I can only imagine what they must think of the "snob from accounting, that thinks he is too good for us"!

It helps in understanding this, "love they neighbor" in terms of protecting (from innuendo) the reputation of a single, eligible, colleague of the opposite gender.

Particularly so for a man toward a woman.

Our focus ought not be controlled by what we might imagine others would think. When we are trying to obey God, imperfect as that may be, we can do the right and must trust God for the results.

I met with female clients 100's of times, possibly more then 2,000 times when were "alone". Only 2 times in all of those years did one of them act "unprofessional".

I honestly never thought twice about it. And neither did my wife.

Now that I am "in ministry" we have been re-thinking that. Today I drove a woman to Dr's appointments that is from a out of town church that I have preached at. When I talked to her I offered to drive her and to "get some lunch". That was me as a salesman. Just offer a bit more then is expected & the client will be thankful & ready to order. My wife pointed out that a single woman may read more into a offer of "lunch" from a pastor then what I expected. My wife said that since we do not have business relationship the "professional distance" that exists in the world of sales should not be assumed to exist.

(What a blessing you have in your wife).

There is a higher standard that applies for a church officer (remember the substantial compliance with an exemplary life required by I Timothy 3 and Titus 1, even the wife of an elder or deacon must be examined for some qualifications for her husband to serve.

Yet, I would say the general, ordinary guideline of not dining alone with members of the opposite gender (using "ordinary" because there might be some sort of exceptional, e.g. emergency situation), would apply to ALL.

She made a good point. So I took two of the kids with me.

I think (opinion only) it does change the dynamic completely when there is a group. Not that there is still not possibility for problem there, but it is something different.

On one level, we might say this is all "common sense."

But knowing Scripture as we do, and that indeed it is true, and that our hearts are unfathomably evil, it all comes from loving a wonderful God, and by derivation, His creatures, even to the end of looking out for their and our good.

A God who gives us all things to enjoy, but within that context- and it is not all self-determined.

Tough stuff,
but wisdom that can save much heartache in this world.

 

[he beholds]

However, I still think it isn't good for a marriage to have one half being jealous or accusative or even just feeling vulnerable.

Is it not good for one to be jealous for the attention received by their spouse, just as it is good for God to be jealous for worship that is due Him?

Yeah, I think it is. I think something would be more wrong if I weren't jealous. But I don't think it is good for either spouse to create occasions to make the other jealous. Just like we don't think it is right for us to give God occasion to be jealous.

 

[Jack K]

It seems like the responses have a lot to do with how one views restaurants. For some, the mindset seems to be that restaurants are for dates or personal celebrations. This is evident by comments like "if you're seen together in a restaurant everyone will assume a close relationship." Those with such a mindset will rightly be against eating out with coworkers of the opposite sex.

But for those who've had jobs that take them on the road, restaurants aren't seen that way. To them, restaurants are for not going hungry.

And for those who've worked in sales or executive positions, restaurants aren't seen that way either. To them, restaurants are for conducting important business.

I fall into both of the latter categories. So I see that a public restaurant is sometimes one of the least tempting settings to be with a coworker or client. And to behave honorably in those jobs is about much, much more than making a rule for yourself regarding restaurants and how things appear in public. It's about how you behave when the situation is even more private than a restaurant.

I also see that fairness comes into play. If I do business over dinner with men but refuse to do so with women, or if I privately talk shop with guys who work with me but leave out women, then that may be unfair to the women. Some will complain. And they may be right to do so.

That said, there is still much merit in knowing what tempts us and others, as well as what might be uncomfortable, and avoiding such situations. A few years ago I hired a guy to work in my department. His first day on the job I took him out to lunch as a gesture of welcome and to get to know him in a non-office setting. Then a month or so later, I hired a young woman for a similar job. But I didn't take her to lunch. Instead I told her I'd taken the other guy to lunch and we could do to same, or I could order lunch for us to eat in the (multi-windowed) conference room—whichever she thought most comfortable. She chose the conference room, and seemed appreciative.

My point is that simple do-or-don't rules are often not enough. We need to pursue a complicated mix of fairness, kindness, business savvy and appropriate distance. It takes wisdom regarding the situation, and attentiveness to the individual people involved.

 

[Scott1]

So I see that a public restaurant is sometimes one of the least tempting settings to be with a coworker or client.

Jack, you just haven't been to a good restaurant!

 

[Jack K]

So I see that a public restaurant is sometimes one of the least tempting settings to be with a coworker or client.

Jack, you just haven't been to a good restaurant!

Maybe. Or maybe I only go to those with my wife.

 

[Sarah]

If I were to walk into a restaurant and see one of my male, married friends having a meal with a woman other than his wife, I would think it looks very strange. Even if I knew she was a coworker and there was no chance anything improper was going on, I'd still feel weird about it.

So if that's how I would feel about others, I can only assume some of my friends would feel the same about me.

Thankfully, neither my husband nor I has a job that requires us to meet over a meal with a person of opposite sex. I'm also thankful that I don't have any big business ambitions, so it's not likely to be an issue with me in the future. It could possibly come up with my husband in the future of his career, though, and that is when I will half-way wish that women were all expected to be housewives again.

 

[py3ak]

I'm with Jack and Kathleen on this one. My job requires me to be alone with various women in various public and private settings, and I don't have a problem with it - nor does my wife. At the moment, work sometimes involves being with people and women are people too. It's not a big deal: temptations to gossip or grumble are present when you spend time with anyone. The public view of a restaurant is probably less potentially damaging to reputation than the quiet of a conference room or the privacy of a van.

 

[he beholds]

I'm with Jack and Kathleen on this one. My job requires me to be alone with various women in various public and private settings, and I don't have a problem with it - nor does my wife. At the moment, work sometimes involves being with people and women are people too. It's not a big deal: temptations to gossip or grumble are present when you spend time with anyone. The public view of a restaurant is probably less potentially damaging to reputation than the quiet of a conference room or the privacy of a van.

Yeah...I'm not with everybody on the restaurant looking like a date. But I would consider the van meeting to be less than wise!
I may be jealous if my husband's meeting in a restaurant, but I think I'd be livid if he's hanging out in a seedy van with some girl.

 

[Sarah]

I may be jealous if my husband's meeting in a restaurant, but I think I'd be livid if he's hanging out in a seedy van with some girl.

Me too!

I think if my husband and a co-worker were going to go out to lunch together, I wouldn't like the restaurant part, but I am more comfortable with that than with their driving alone together to the restaurant. I don't really know why, but that seems worse to me. I guess because they would be truly alone.

 

[jwright82]

I have a new problem to push this discussion into. Back when I was both married and in the airforce I ran into a problem because of my job. I was a manitaner on the B1 bomber's armament, weapons, systems. Our equipment was a a tight fit to get under and I had a female coworker that I had to work with, orders and all. My exwife did not like me working with her but I had no choice, when they order the two of you to go fix something you have to. The problem wasn't there it was when sometimes we would have to fix things that required us to be in very close proximity to oneanother, I mean inches. It was unavoidable becaue of what we had to. So I kept our relationship very professional and so did she. I mean to say no I won't do that can wind you up in jail in the military. I think I handled this ok but as an exstension to this discussion would ya'll agree? And just for the record I never cheated on my wife that is not why we got divoriced so just to get that out of the way. I was never attracted or tempted by this young girl despite her good looks so I wanted to put this question in perspective.

 

[he beholds]

In my opinion, if my husband had to do it (which is really the only way I see him joining a female one-on-one for anything) thoughts would still creep into my head and probably, unfairly, our conversations (so how's Jane?), but I'd get that he had to.
I think there is a huge difference in a married man joining his non-wife for lunch voluntarily, like when there are other options, than when he has to, or virtually has to in order to keep peace, do his job, or appear socially normal if to do otherwise would cause more pain than it's worth.

My problem scenario would be if my husband always chose to meet with one female coworker for lunch rather than the whole group or the guys.

 

[py3ak]

Yeah...I'm not with everybody on the restaurant looking like a date. But I would consider the van meeting to be less than wise!
I may be jealous if my husband's meeting in a restaurant, but I think I'd be livid if he's hanging out in a seedy van with some girl.

Well hopefully our company van is not very seedy! But when I am asked to chauffeur someone around, or when we go to a meeting together, it still doesn't strike me as an issue.

 

[jwright82]

In my opinion, if my husband had to do it (which is really the only way I see him joining a female one-on-one for anything) thoughts would still creep into my head and probably, unfairly, our conversations (so how's Jane?), but I'd get that he had to.
I think there is a huge difference in a married man joining his non-wife for lunch voluntarily, like when there are other options, than when he has to, or virtually has to in order to keep peace, do his job, or appear socially normal if to do otherwise would cause more pain than it's worth.

My problem scenario would be if my husband always chose to meet with one female coworker for lunch rather than the whole group or the guys.

I did not feel comfortable with at all. She was very good at her job and I am sure that she is doing well in the airforce if she is still in but still I had more than one argument over it. To make matters worse she was, and I am not trying to be vulger or anything here so please don't mistake I am saying, well gifted in her genetics so being inches from her was hard not to be physical. Again I was never tempted or anything like that but I can honestly say that I would not be comfortable in that job again, and maybe my ex noticed this and was concerned about it.

 

[he beholds]

Yeah...I'm not with everybody on the restaurant looking like a date. But I would consider the van meeting to be less than wise!
I may be jealous if my husband's meeting in a restaurant, but I think I'd be livid if he's hanging out in a seedy van with some girl.

Well hopefully our company van is not very seedy! But when I am asked to chauffeur someone around, or when we go to a meeting together, it still doesn't strike me as an issue.

Haha! Hopefully not! Where I come from vans seem to evoke images of kidnappers--sorry! And I'd hate for it to sound like I want there to be a rule, "No private conversations allowed!" That is not the case--I kind of hate man-made, one-size-fits-all rules. I just was [trying] to agree that restaurants are safer than vans.

 

[Montanablue]

Kathleen,

Are you saying that, in order to prevent guys who are not your husband from hitting on you, that you would go out to eat with a guy that is not your husband (nor 90 years old or a close relative)?

Yes. Because eating a business meal with a man does not mean that he is hitting on me. I would prefer to eat with a female colleague simply because we probably have more to talk about, but Im not worried about my male colleagues trying something with me. It may be difficult for a man to understand, but eating alone as a woman (at least here) is simply unpleasant. If I have to choose between eating alone in a restaurant or skipping a meal/eating a granola bar, I take the granola bar option. I obviously prefer to eat a meal.

I think I am mainly surprised by the importance people have placed on eating a meal in a restaurant together. I eat lunch with my boss (a male) in our break room all the time. That's certainly more private than than a public restaurant. We also close the library together sometimes - again, no one else is there. Both of these situations seem like they are more "dangerous" than eating in a public place - there are so many witnesses in a restuarant. If I was going to try something untoward, that would be the last place I'd go! When I meet with my pastor, we often go to local diner/coffees shop. I've always assumed this is because it might seem odd for me to go to his office at the church (which I understand and support). I think of a restaurant as being a "safe" place.

Anyway, I'm done discussing this. Like I've said, I would never want to violate someone's conscience and I'm not offended if a male colleague eats by himself rather than with me. I'm certainly not about to give anyone instruction on how they ought to run their marriage!

 

[seajayrice]

Breaking bread with another is an intimate affair, to enjoy this one on one fellowship with a woman when pledged to another is nearing adultery.

 

[he beholds]

Breaking bread with another is an intimate affair, to enjoy this one on one fellowship with a woman when pledged to another is nearing adultery.

Now this is one of those man-made, one-size-fits-all rules that I was talking about disliking above! We aren't pharisees. Adultery is adultery. We don't write a list of near-sins (ie NOT sins) around a sin and say these things are almost that sin, so don't do them. There is prudence, to be sure, but that prudence, by the nature of prudence, has to consider the situation.
What is "nearing adultery?" I think there is adultery and there is not adultery. Having an ill-intent in one's heart is already adultery. Sharing bread, with no ill-intent and no ill-behavior, is sharing bread.

 

[Scott1]

We must all stand convicted before the broad application of the moral law.

And know that we need a Savior, the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ alone that can justify us before a Holy God.

Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 138. What are the duties required in the seventh commandment?

A. The duties required in the seventh commandment are, chastity in body, mind, affections,[767] words,[768] and behavior;[769] and the preservation of it in ourselves and others;[770] watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses;[771] temperance,[772] keeping of chaste company,[773] modesty in apparel;[774] marriage by those that have not the gift of continency,[775] conjugal love,[776] and cohabitation;[777] diligent labor in our callings;[778] shunning all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto.[779]

Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[780] are, adultery, fornication,[781] rape, incest,[782] sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[783] all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections;[784] all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto;[785] wanton looks,[786] impudent or light behaviour, immodest apparel;[787] prohibiting of lawful,[788] and dispensing with unlawful marriages;[789] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them;[790] entangling vows of single life,[791] undue delay of marriage,[792] having more wives or husbands than one at the same time;[793] unjust divorce,[794] or desertion;[795] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[796] unchaste company;[797] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[798] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[799]

Scripture Proofs

[767] 1 Thessalonians 4:4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour. Job 31:1. I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid? 1 Corinthians 7:34. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

[768] Colossians 4:6. Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

[769] 1 Peter 3:2. While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

[770] 1 Corinthians 7:2, 35-36. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.... And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

[771] Job 31:1. I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

[772] Acts 24:24-25. And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

[773] Proverbs 2:16-20. To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.

[774] 1 Timothy 2:9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.

[775] 1 Corinthians 7:2, 9. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.... But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

[776] Proverbs 5:19-20. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

[777] 1 Peter 3:7. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

[778] Proverbs 31:11, 27-28. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.... She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

[779] Proverbs 5:8. Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house. Genesis 39:8-10. But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.

[780] Proverbs 5:7. Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.

[781] Hebrews 13:4. Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. Galatians 5:19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness.

[782] 2 Samuel 13:14. Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her. 1 Corinthians 5:1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

[783] Romans 1:24, 26-27. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves.... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. Leviticus 20:15-16. And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

[784] Matthew 5:28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 15:19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. Colossians 3:5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

[785] Ephesians 5:3-4. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Proverbs 7:5, 21-22. That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.... With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks.

[786] Isaiah 3:16. Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet. 2 Peter 2:14. Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children.

[787] Proverbs 7:10, 13. And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtle of heart.... So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him....

[788] 1 Timothy 4:3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

[789] Leviticus 18:1-21. Mark 6:18. For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife. Malachi 2:11-12. Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.

[790] 1 Kings 15:12. And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. 2 Kings 23:7. And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove. Deuteronomy 23:17-18. There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God. Leviticus 19:29. Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. Jeremiah 5:7. How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses. Proverbs 7:24-27. Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths. For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her. Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

[791] Matthew 19:10-11. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

[792] 1 Corinthians 7:7-9. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. Genesis 38:26. And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

[793] Malachi 2:14-15. Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. Matthew 19:5. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

[794] Malachi 2:16. For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. Matthew 5:32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

[795] 1 Corinthians 7:12-13. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

[796] Ezekiel 16:49. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Proverbs 23:30-33. They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

[797] Genesis 39:19. And it came to pass, when his master heard the words of his wife, which she spake unto him, saying, After this manner did thy servant to me; that his wrath was kindled. Proverbs 5:8. Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house.

[798] Ephesians 5:4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Ezekiel 23:14-16. And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men portrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans portrayed with vermilion, Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity: And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea. Isaiah 23:15-17. And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. Isaiah 3:16. Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet. Mark 6:22. And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee. Romans 13:13. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 1 Peter 4:3. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries.

[799] 2 Kings 9:30. And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window. Jeremiah 4:30. And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. Ezekiel 23:40. And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments.

 

[Pergamum]

Kathleen,

Are you saying that, in order to prevent guys who are not your husband from hitting on you, that you would go out to eat with a guy that is not your husband (nor 90 years old or a close relative)?

Yes. Because eating a business meal with a man does not mean that he is hitting on me. I would prefer to eat with a female colleague simply because we probably have more to talk about, but Im not worried about my male colleagues trying something with me. It may be difficult for a man to understand, but eating alone as a woman (at least here) is simply unpleasant. If I have to choose between eating alone in a restaurant or skipping a meal/eating a granola bar, I take the granola bar option. I obviously prefer to eat a meal.

I think I am mainly surprised by the importance people have placed on eating a meal in a restaurant together. I eat lunch with my boss (a male) in our break room all the time. That's certainly more private than than a public restaurant. We also close the library together sometimes - again, no one else is there. Both of these situations seem like they are more "dangerous" than eating in a public place - there are so many witnesses in a restuarant. If I was going to try something untoward, that would be the last place I'd go! When I meet with my pastor, we often go to local diner/coffees shop. I've always assumed this is because it might seem odd for me to go to his office at the church (which I understand and support). I think of a restaurant as being a "safe" place.

Anyway, I'm done discussing this. Like I've said, I would never want to violate someone's conscience and I'm not offended if a male colleague eats by himself rather than with me. I'm certainly not about to give anyone instruction on how they ought to run their marriage!

Most cases of adultery are not with total strangers but with people that we already know and think are pretty decent.

If eating a meal alone is unpleasant, then this means that the main reason for adding a man who is not your husband at a meal would be for the purpose of social pleasantness.

Most wives who are mothers can rarely even get out alone without the kids and when my wife does, she is happy to have solitude and takes a book. I sure don't want her, nor does she want me, to be alone in a socially pleasant setting with the opposite sex.

In the US the divorce rate is very, very high and I think the rate of adultery is also very high. Therefore, there are very good reasons for having strict rules about the patterns of social behavior that would be considered appropriate or inappropriate for married couples.

And maybe this is just a lower socio-economic family-guy standpoint, but going out to dinner is a special thing and not something one does everyday.

 

[he beholds]

We must all stand convicted before the broad application of the moral law.

Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 138. What are the duties required in the seventh commandment?

A. The duties required in the seventh commandment are, chastity in body, mind, affections,[767] words,[768] and behavior;[769] and the preservation of it in ourselves and others;[770] watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses;[771] temperance,[772] keeping of chaste company,[773] modesty in apparel;[774] marriage by those that have not the gift of continency,[775] conjugal love,[776] and cohabitation;[777] diligent labor in our callings;[778] shunning all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto.[779]

Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[780] are, adultery, fornication,[781] rape, incest,[782] sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[783] all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections;[784] all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto;[785] wanton looks,[786] impudent or light behaviour, immodest apparel;[787] prohibiting of lawful,[788] and dispensing with unlawful marriages;[789] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them;[790] entangling vows of single life,[791] undue delay of marriage,[792] having more wives or husbands than one at the same time;[793] unjust divorce,[794] or desertion;[795] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[796] unchaste company;[797] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[798] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[799]

Right. All of these things actually are adultery. They aren't nearing it; they are a breaking of the law.

 

[seajayrice]

Breaking bread with another is an intimate affair, to enjoy this one on one fellowship with a woman when pledged to another is nearing adultery.

Now this is one of those man-made, one-size-fits-all rules that I was talking about disliking above! We aren't pharisees. Adultery is adultery. We don't write a list of near-sins (ie NOT sins) around a sin and say these things are almost that sin, so don't do them. There is prudence, to be sure, but that prudence, by the nature of prudence, has to consider the situation.
What is "nearing adultery?" I think there is adultery and there is not adultery. Having an ill-intent in one's heart is already adultery. Sharing bread, with no ill-intent and no ill-behavior, is sharing bread.

Man made rules, not really; simple common sense, flee temptation. Perhaps you are special and possess some super-human piety. Hope that guy across the dinner plate is equally endowed.