A Question for Sabbath Keepers

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JMC

Puritan Board Freshman
Hey guys, I've read a little on keeping the Sabbath. Its all fairly new to me because I grew up in a home that taught that the Sabbath has been fulfilled and we are no longer to keep it. For the past couple years I have taken a more relaxed view of the sabbath (meaning, it's good for us but we don't necessarily need to obey it. That resting can be anything I find relaxing i.e. woodworking, watching tv, etc.) But after doing some reading recently, I am convicted of how I have been handling the Lord's Day. It seems scripture teaches that it should be a day of focusing on the Lord and that true rest is when we are reading scripture, focusing on things above, and fellowship with other believers. From scripture and sound logic it can also be taught that we should not eat out, for in essence we are paying someone to break a commandment! But here is where I find the dilemma.

I work in the Power grid industry. The same logic and scripture to say we shouldn't eat out can also be used that we shouldn't use the power grid. For the grid is needing to be constantly balanced. Every Watt that you use to power your lights and AC needs to be generated in that moment and managed by people. A lot of it is automated, but there is still people that we are forcing to work on the Sabbath when we turn on lights or any other device that needs electricity from the grid. Every time you use electricity from the grid you are conducting business. I would guess the first argument would be that our use of electricity doesn't change the fact that someone still has to manage the power grid, but if we used that logic we could eat out at a buffet. Do we need to all go out and buy generators to power our house and church on Sundays? Could someone help me understand this and why it's okay to use electricity but not eat out? I'm not trying to disprove or prove a point. I genuinely just want to know how to honor the Lord on His Day.
 
what would it look like to shut down the grid in each sector during its Sunday hours and restart it on Monday?
 
A few thoughts:

Do you disagree with your Confession (Chapter 21.8 in particular)? If so, what do your local Church leaders think of this departure?

The Sabbath has not been fulfilled in any different way than the rest of the moral law. Fulfilled does not mean ended. Christ made it clear that He did not come to end the Law, and that includes the Sabbath. He remains Lord of the Sabbath, and it remains our duty to remember it and keep it set apart.

The Sabbath is also a creational ordinance, and thus part of the natural order, and so it is in force as long as this earth remains.

We also are still looking forward to a Sabbath rest (see Hebrews 3-4) - the weekly Sabbath is, among other things, a reminder of this.

Think of it as a tithe of time - the waking hours of the Sabbath = 10% of hours in a week. It is the least you can offer God.

I did not grow up in a Sabbath-keeping tradition. I have now spent the majority of my life keeping it set apart. I cannot adequately express the blessing.
 
A few thoughts:

Do you disagree with your Confession (Chapter 21.8 in particular)? If so, what do your local Church leaders think of this departure?

The Sabbath has not been fulfilled in any different way than the rest of the moral law. Fulfilled does not mean ended. Christ made it clear that He did not come to end the Law, and that includes the Sabbath. He remains Lord of the Sabbath, and it remains our duty to remember it and keep it set apart.

The Sabbath is also a creational ordinance, and thus part of the natural order, and so it is in force as long as this earth remains.

We also are still looking forward to a Sabbath rest (see Hebrews 3-4) - the weekly Sabbath is, among other things, a reminder of this.

Think of it as a tithe of time - the waking hours of the Sabbath = 10% of hours in a week. It is the least you can offer God.

I did not grow up in a Sabbath-keeping tradition. I have now spent the majority of my life keeping it set apart. I cannot adequately express the blessing.
This is very good. Thank you. I do agree. I used to not think I should keep the sabbath, then I had a view that was in between, and now I do hold to what the confession says. I’m trying to understand if I can use electricity on the Sabbath. I probably should have posed the question and where I stand clearer. My apologies.
 
This is very good. Thank you. I do agree. I used to not think I should keep the sabbath, then I had a view that was in between, and now I do hold to what the confession says. I’m trying to understand if I can use electricity on the Sabbath. I probably should have posed the question and where I stand clearer. My apologies.
Do you know of any churches that do not use electricity because it violates the Sabbath?
 
This is helpful. Excuse my ignorance, but does scripture allow work if it’s a necessity? I’m still learning and so I’m not familiar with all the passages regarding the sabbath.
Works of necessity are permitted on the Sabbath, and works of mercy are permitted and even required.

According to your confession, Chapter 21:
  1. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations; but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
See Matthew 12:1-13 for the prooftext: verses 1-8 deal with works of necessity (such as preparing for a meal), and verses 9-13 deal with works of mercy (such as providing medical relief).
 
I’m trying to understand if I can use electricity on the Sabbath.
Yes, unless your conscience forbids it. People can build fires and cook on the Sabbath but not gather wood (Numbers 15:32) - the latter can be done ahead of time so it should (in order to set apart time for a Sabbath resting). Everyone has to draw the line somewhere. Much of what we use was (unfortunately) produced on the Sabbath (clothing, transportation fuel, food). Sewer and other public systems are not designed to be shut off and on for 24 hours every week and still function properly (I really don't want to open this can of worms again, but public transport can be shut off/on with no major effect on the system). The goal in a Christian society would be to automate as much as possible and then schedule necessary workers so that they are not working every Sabbath or an entire Sabbath to allow them time to rest and remember. I say this as a farmer - there are things I have to do to care for my animals on the Sabbath (like help deliver a calf). There are things I can do ahead of time (like put out double feed the day before) and things I don't need to do that can wait until the following day (like clean out the manure). The goal is to limit those things to free up as much time for rest and remembrance on the Sabbath.
 
This is helpful. Excuse my ignorance, but does scripture allow work if it’s a necessity? I’m still learning and so I’m not familiar with all the passages regarding the sabbath.

Certain works are necessary every day (medical, emergency, policing) and thus these are allowed on Sabbath. That doesn't mean that every aspect of work associated with these professions should be done on Sabbath, but the core of the work is necessary and thus lawful.

Electricity is a resource which is necessary to power other necessary works. It is the use of the electricity which determines its lawfulness on Sabbath. It is lawful to use electricity to light one's home and church; it is unlawful to use electricity to watch television. Those who work on the national grid cannot know how electricity is being used in every single instance. So in my opinion because the generation of electricity is necessary and thus lawful, and because you are not responsible for others' misuse of it, then your job would be lawful on Sabbath. I have wondered about this area (power plants, oil rigs &c.). Some of these places (such as oil rigs) can be very worldly environments in which to work (before one even gets to the Sabbath question). But my gut instinct is that it is lawful.

In your buffet analogy someone has still had to open the restaurant and prepare the food. All commercial work is unnecessary on Sabbath. In this example we can buy our food before the Sabbath whereas with the buffet you are still paying the individual for a (unnecessary) service even if your interaction with him is minimal. With utilities one is not engaging in a commercial transaction on Sabbath. We pay a regular charge based on our consumption over a certain period of time but we are not going out on the Sabbath and buying electricity. Provided our use of electricity on the Sabbath is a lawful use there is no breaking of the Sabbath. Otherwise renting would be unlawful because the rent we pay each month covers the Sabbaths of that month; staying in a hotel over Sabbath is not unlawful because your charge includes the Sabbath (though there are tricky questions which do arise from staying in hotels over a Sabbath but the charge for the room isn't one of them).
 
Thank you all very much. This is very helpful and clears everything up in my head
Glad it clears up your head, lol. I find this subject as clear as mud. If strict sabbath keeping is correct, then I don't see how God can favor our modern technological world. Power grids could be stopped and started to a great degree, but a steel mill furnace can't be shut off Saturday and turned back Monday. Same for all the other huge smelters. How much metal is in your life? Either we go back to the pre industrialized world, or a lot of people work on Sunday. All kinds of scientific endeavors need at least a reduced staff on the weekend.

I've had my brief bouts of wondering if truly we should leave it all behind and somehow go back to the olden days. I've read enough old books to know how very hard and different life was. But to be consistent is there any other way? The definition of "acts of mercy" has slid into a whole lot of jobs over the last few centuries. We do not need modernity to survive, mankind lived for thousands of years without any of it. Personally at this point I find the "abrogated" position to be more intellectually honest if you partake of metals and plastics and electricity and public water and sewers and cell phones on Sunday. I no longer criticize those Christians internally, even if I might cringe a bit watching them go out shopping and so forth after church. The "acts of mercy" arguments for modern tech seem like a real stretch. But I don't know the mind of God. Like I said, clear as mud to me.

Just sort of venting, you don't have to try to help me. Lately I'm thinking getting bombed back to 1500 might be the best thing that ever happened to us, although the 95%+ die off would be so grievous. At least we would get rid of the transhumanism experimental labs......
 
Just sort of venting, you don't have to try to help me. Lately I'm thinking getting bombed back to 1500 might be the best thing that ever happened to us, although the 95%+ die off would be so grievous. At least we would get rid of the transhumanism experimental labs......
What you said reminded me of this meme.

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Glad it clears up your head, lol. I find this subject as clear as mud. If strict sabbath keeping is correct, then I don't see how God can favor our modern technological world. Power grids could be stopped and started to a great degree, but a steel mill furnace can't be shut off Saturday and turned back Monday. Same for all the other huge smelters. How much metal is in your life? Either we go back to the pre industrialized world, or a lot of people work on Sunday. All kinds of scientific endeavors need at least a reduced staff on the weekend.

I've had my brief bouts of wondering if truly we should leave it all behind and somehow go back to the olden days. I've read enough old books to know how very hard and different life was. But to be consistent is there any other way? The definition of "acts of mercy" has slid into a whole lot of jobs over the last few centuries. We do not need modernity to survive, mankind lived for thousands of years without any of it. Personally at this point I find the "abrogated" position to be more intellectually honest if you partake of metals and plastics and electricity and public water and sewers and cell phones on Sunday. I no longer criticize those Christians internally, even if I might cringe a bit watching them go out shopping and so forth after church. The "acts of mercy" arguments for modern tech seem like a real stretch. But I don't know the mind of God. Like I said, clear as mud to me.

Just sort of venting, you don't have to try to help me. Lately I'm thinking getting bombed back to 1500 might be the best thing that ever happened to us, although the 95%+ die off would be so grievous. At least we would get rid of the transhumanism experimental labs......
You make some really good points. i hadn't thought about that. There certainly are things that we all use that were made on the Sabbath. For instance, anyone of our cell phones could have been manufactured on the Sabbath. That means anytime we use it we are essentially paying someone to break the Sabbath. The only way around it would be to only use it for necessity. What is the answer to this? Are we responsible for someone else breaking the Sabbath?

Could the argument be that the workers at the manufacturing warehouse are working to make money to survive and therefore its a necessity? But then couldn't the same be said about restaurant workers?
 
You make some really good points. i hadn't thought about that. There certainly are things that we all use that were made on the Sabbath. For instance, anyone of our cell phones could have been manufactured on the Sabbath. That means anytime we use it we are essentially paying someone to break the Sabbath. The only way around it would be to only use it for necessity. What is the answer to this? Are we responsible for someone else breaking the Sabbath?

Could the argument be that the workers at the manufacturing warehouse are working to make money to survive and therefore its a necessity? But then couldn't the same be said about restaurant workers?
Should Sabbatarian churches use electricity if they have the ability to use generators? Should we tailor clothes that can be specifically requested to not be made on the Sabbath?

Stretching your 'public food on the Sabbath' question - Should hospital cafeterias who serve grieving visitors be closed? (Not all Sunday eateries are commercialized all for profit entities).
 
Should Sabbatarian churches use electricity if they have the ability to use generators? Should we tailor clothes that can be specifically requested to not be made on the Sabbath?

Stretching your 'public food on the Sabbath' question - Should hospital cafeterias who serve grieving visitors be closed? (Not all Sunday eateries are commercialized all for profit entities).
I am so sorry. You're going to have to bear with me. Are these rhetorical? If so, Could you provide your answers because I don't know the answers.

Also, If we want clothes made not on Sunday we must also require everything that is involve in making clothes be not made on Sunday as well. For instance the fabric must be made not on Sunday, the sowing needle must not be made on Sunday, All the parts of the sowing machine must not be on Sunday. Then all the raw materials of the of the tools must not have been gathered or made on Sunday. I'm not sure that is possible. Yet, I can't help but think it has to be for us to honor the Sabbath as the confession describes. granted, i guess we could say its a necessity. but then we must only wear clothes of necessity and cannot wear anything that is beyond necessity. the modern world makes it so complex and I am tempted to just say that if someone breaks the Sabbath to make what i pay for is on them, not me. but I'm not sure that is biblical.
 
I am so sorry. You're going to have to bear with me. Are these rhetorical? If so, Could you provide your answers because I don't know the answers.

Also, If we want clothes made not on Sunday we must also require everything that is involve in making clothes be not made on Sunday as well. For instance the fabric must be made not on Sunday, the sowing needle must not be made on Sunday, All the parts of the sowing machine must not be on Sunday. Then all the raw materials of the of the tools must not have been gathered or made on Sunday. I'm not sure that is possible. Yet, I can't help but think it has to be for us to honor the Sabbath as the confession describes. granted, i guess we could say its a necessity. but then we must only wear clothes of necessity and cannot wear anything that is beyond necessity. the modern world makes it so complex and I am tempted to just say that if someone breaks the Sabbath to make what i pay for is on them, not me. but I'm not sure that is biblical.
Helping you draw some of your own lines from your own reasoning. Not rhetorical; feel free to say yes or no for they are your own thoughts.

Then, is there a line to be drawn with the clothing example? Materials cannot be avoided. But the tailoring of it on the right day can be easier done?

The church using electricity example is clearer in my opinion.
 
I agree with Alexander. Could a church not use its electric heater on Sunday in the wintertime or electric AC on Sunday in the summertime? Sure. But why would any church want to do that? There has to be a line somewhere going back in the accountability of Sabbath work where accountability stops. By some of the arguments I've seen here, we shouldn't use anything in this world, since it might have been made on the Sabbath. Should we not read our Bibles because the trees used to make the paper might have been harvested on Sunday for the paper mill? Yes, causality is complicated, but that doesn't mean culpability exists equally all along the multiple lines of causality. The same kind of argument is used in suing gun manufacturers for gun crime. We can't go in that direction. Let God sort out the culpability going back. We live in a fallen world where (alas!) Sabbath means little. The solution is not to boycott all products. The solution is the preaching of law and gospel so that people who are saved by God's grace will also want to honor the Sabbath more.
 
Helping you draw some of your own lines from your own reasoning. Not rhetorical; feel free to say yes or no for they are your own thoughts.

Then, is there a line to be drawn with the clothing example? Materials cannot be avoided. But the tailoring of it on the right day can be easier done?

The church using electricity example is clearer in my opinion.
Oh okay. I see. So in my opinion, If I would use the same logic and scripture that people use to not eat out, I would say churches who are able to have generators then they should. I think buying the generator should come before all else besides other absolute bare necessity such as the bear minimum salary for a pastor and roof over their head while they meet. For instance, if the church is spending money on paintings, a stage, a pulpit, instruments, microphones, etc. before saving for a generator they are sinning just like someone would be for eating out on Sunday. because every time a pastor speaks a word through his microphone the speakers are needing more wattage to do it which means more watts are needing to be pulled from the power grid which means more wattage is needing to be made by some powerplant which would need to be adjusted and monitored by workers. Every light switched is a transaction of business between the owner of the electric bill and the utility company which also causes more transactions between the utility company and the generator company and in some cases depending where you are the RTO and the load servers and the generators.

There's also the question of necessity. are having light bulbs really necessary? couldn't candles be used? Is having a sounds system really necessary? Couldn't a pastor raise his voice?

I'm struggling because there appears to be inconsistent logic. But tons of churches use electricity without generators, so clearly I'm missing something, but I just don't know what.
 
Oh okay. I see. So in my opinion, If I would use the same logic and scripture that people use to not eat out, I would say churches who are able to have generators then they should. I think buying the generator should come before all else besides other absolute bare necessity such as the bear minimum salary for a pastor and roof over their head while they meet. For instance, if the church is spending money on paintings, a stage, a pulpit, instruments, microphones, etc. before saving for a generator they are sinning just like someone would be for eating out on Sunday. because every time a pastor speaks a word through his microphone the speakers are needing more wattage to do it which means more watts are needing to be pulled from the power grid which means more wattage is needing to be made by some powerplant which would need to be adjusted and monitored by workers. Every light switched is a transaction of business between the owner of the electric bill and the utility company which also causes more transactions between the utility company and the generator company and in some cases depending where you are the RTO and the load servers and the generators.

There's also the question of necessity. are having light bulbs really necessary? couldn't candles be used? Is having a sounds system really necessary? Couldn't a pastor raise his voice?

I'm struggling because there appears to be inconsistent logic. But tons of churches use electricity without generators, so clearly I'm missing something, but I just don't know what.
I am assuming that even the 'strictest' Sabbatarian churches are using electricity for lights and heating. Are they doing it out of compromise? (The ideal situation would be using generators) Are they and should they be saving up for generators? Can someone charge these churches for breaking the Sabbath because candles can be used and generators can be saved up for, in principle?

By the way, I think electricity use is allowable. But my opinion is not relevant here. I am helping you to formulate your own thoughts and conclusion. I
 
I am assuming that even the 'strictest' Sabbatarian churches are using electricity for lights and heating. Are they doing it out of compromise? (The ideal situation would be using generators) Are they and should they be saving up for generators? Can someone charge these churches for breaking the Sabbath because candles can be used and generators can be saved up for, in principle?

By the way, I think electricity use is allowable. But my opinion is not relevant here. I am helping you to formulate your own thoughts and conclusion. I
Thank you. This is helping. I would say that they are doing it out of compromise and that it is hypocritical to say they can use electricity but not eat at a restaurant. I do have a hard time saying a church needs electricity when churches survived without it for so long. It is a frivolous expense that is causing other people to break the Sabbath.

I say this based on my current logic, not conviction.
 
Thank you. This is helping. I would say that they are doing it out of compromise and that it is hypocritical to say they can use electricity but not eat at a restaurant. I do have a hard time saying a church needs electricity when churches survived without it for so long. It is a frivolous expense that is causing other people to break the Sabbath.

I say this based on my current logic, not conviction.
Then perhaps your search would be served by asking such churches on their views and practices. Surely they are seeing things differently from your logical conclusion "...it is hypcritical...". There are things you need to investigate in their line of reasoning. I am sure they would defend against any thoughts of being hypocritical.
 
Then perhaps your search would be served by asking such churches on their views and practices. Surely they are seeing things differently from your logical conclusion "...it is hypcritical...". There are things you need to investigate in their line of reasoning. I am sure they would defend against any thoughts of being hypocritical.
Wait, wouldn't people on this forum be a part of such churches? Do you think its okay to eat out on the Sabbath? I thought that was a common view on this board. The only reason i say hypocritical is because that is my logical conclusion, but surely they aren't and I am just missing something. I do not mean to rebuke anyone, just trying to state where I am at so I can understand better so I can live a more biblical life. I hope I didn't offend anyone.
 
Wait, wouldn't people on this forum be a part of such churches? Do you think its okay to eat out on the Sabbath? I thought that was a common view on this board. The only reason i say hypocritical is because that is my logical conclusion, but surely they aren't and I am just missing something. I do not mean to rebuke anyone, just trying to state where I am at so I can understand better so I can live a more biblical life. I hope I didn't offend anyone.
Yes, there is a difference between charging someone with being hypocritical vs. 'I have a logical conclusion but wait, they cannot be hypocritical so I am missing something here; something that I can only learn by asking questions and finding out'.
 
Yes, there is a difference between charging someone with being hypocritical vs. 'I have a logical conclusion but wait, they cannot be hypocritical so I am missing something here; something that I can only learn by asking questions and finding out'.
You are right, my apologies everyone! I do not think there is hypocrisy I was merely trying to show my current understanding so everyone is better able to correct the error. I thought I was making that clear, but looking back it's clear that I didn't. I'm still learning Sabbath and there seems to be inconsistent logic. I want to obey the Sabbath as God commands it, but I'm not sure how. Can I eat out? Can I use electricity? I know tone is taken out in writing, so please understand that in my postings I am seeking better understanding not trying to disprove people. My questions are in the interest of how I should live and not to correct anyone. I only mentioned hypocrisy because you asked me and I answered it thinking I shouldn't answer it to my current understanding so that it can better help you correct where my logic is going wrong.

By the way, I think electricity use is allowable. But my opinion is not relevant here. I am helping you to formulate your own thoughts and conclusion. I
I do want to form my own thoughts, but as state there is clearly a mistake in scripture or logic that I have taken. So please do share your opinion. Why is electricity allowable but eating out not? My view is not formed and I am very open to learning
 
You make some really good points. i hadn't thought about that. There certainly are things that we all use that were made on the Sabbath. For instance, anyone of our cell phones could have been manufactured on the Sabbath. That means anytime we use it we are essentially paying someone to break the Sabbath. The only way around it would be to only use it for necessity. What is the answer to this? Are we responsible for someone else breaking the Sabbath?

Could the argument be that the workers at the manufacturing warehouse are working to make money to survive and therefore its a necessity? But then couldn't the same be said about restaurant workers?

If I may I think the problem you are having is over the issue of necessity. Works of necessity and mercy are governed by strict rules laid down in Scripture through the use of examples. Necessity and mercy are not defined as those broad, general necessities and mercies of life, but those which are absolutely necessary at that time. It is merciful to do the shopping for the frail lady who is our neighbour but it is not necessary to do this on Sabbath. Heart by-pass surgery is necessary to treat heart disease but it is not always the case that it is necessary on Sabbath. Earning a wage is necessary but that doesn't mean the work we perform to earn that wage is necessary on Sabbath. It is the work itself which must be necessary.

We are not required to investigate every single thing we come into contact with over the course of the day as to how it was manufactured, or grown, or transported &c. As Lane said: this is a fallen world and we cannot but interact with products (and persons) which reflect this fact.
 
You are right, my apologies everyone! I do not think there is hypocrisy I was merely trying to show my current understanding so everyone is better able to correct the error. I thought I was making that clear, but looking back it's clear that I didn't. I'm still learning Sabbath and there seems to be inconsistent logic. I want to obey the Sabbath as God commands it, but I'm not sure how. Can I eat out? Can I use electricity? I know tone is taken out in writing, so please understand that in my postings I am seeking better understanding not trying to disprove people. My questions are in the interest of how I should live and not to correct anyone. I only mentioned hypocrisy because you asked me and I answered it thinking I shouldn't answer it to my current understanding so that it can better help you correct where my logic is going wrong.


I do want to form my own thoughts, but as state there is clearly a mistake in scripture or logic that I have taken. So please do share your opinion. Why is electricity allowable but eating out not? My view is not formed and I am very open to learning
Practically, I live on the 10th floor. So I need to use electricity to get down to church (with kids). Could I feasibly walk down and carry the children? Yes.

Broadly speaking, there are lines to be drawn to electrical usage being a necessity.
 
Practically, I live on the 10th floor. So I need to use electricity to get down to church (with kids). Could I feasibly walk down and carry the children? Yes.

Broadly speaking, there are lines to be drawn to electrical usage being a necessity.
I agree. So would you say you can only use electricity if its necessary? For instance taking an elevator but not using it to run a 3d printer? If so, I think i could get behind that and that makes sense. But then how do we determine what is necessary? I don't think speakers in church are necessary in most cases (simply because preachers didn't need them in history and it wasn't a problem), but I don't know of a church that doesn't use them. What's there logic?
 
If I may I think the problem you are having is over the issue of necessity. Works of necessity and mercy are governed by strict rules laid down in Scripture through the use of examples. Necessity and mercy are not defined as those broad, general necessities and mercies of life, but those which are absolutely necessary at that time. It is merciful to do the shopping for the frail lady who is our neighbour but it is not necessary to do this on Sabbath. Heart by-pass surgery is necessary to treat heart disease but it is not always the case that it is necessary on Sabbath. Earning a wage is necessary but that doesn't mean the work we perform to earn that wage is necessary on Sabbath. It is the work itself which must be necessary.

We are not required to investigate every single thing we come into contact with over the course of the day as to how it was manufactured, or grown, or transported &c. As Lane said: this is a fallen world and we cannot but interact with products (and persons) which reflect this fact.
That makes a lot of sense. Someone who needs to earn a living can do it on other days. Thank you for explaining that. Could you explain further the second paragraph? It seems like we pay attention to commands that are broken when we eat out, but not the table we eat on. Why is it? I think I'm close to getting it, but its just not clicking yet. Thank you for your patience.
 
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