A Question for Sabbath Keepers

[alexandermsmith]

That makes a lot of sense. Someone who needs to earn a living can do it on other days. Thank you for explaining that. Could you explain further the second paragraph? It seems like we pay attention to commands that are broken when we eat out, but not the table we eat on. Why is it? I think I'm close to getting it, but its just not clicking yet. Thank you for your patience.

1 Corinthians 10:25: Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

The table we sit at could well have been manufactured on the Sabbath and that is a sin but it is not our sin as we did not make it, nor commission its production knowing it would be made in violation of the Fourth Commandment. Culpability is a real thing but it does have limits. Where we cannot reasonably be expected to have knowledge of sin being mixed with something we buy we cannot be held accountable for that particular sin. That is not to say we shouldn't be diligent but it is to say that if we are to live in this world- which we are commanded to do- it is inevitable we will make lawful use of things which were produced unlawfully.

 

[JMC]

1 Corinthians 10:25: Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

The table we sit at could well have been manufactured on the Sabbath and that is a sin but it is not our sin as we did not make it, nor commission its production knowing it would be made in violation of the Fourth Commandment. Culpability is a real thing but it does have limits. Where we cannot reasonably be expected to have knowledge of sin being mixed with something we buy we cannot be held accountable for that particular sin. That is not to say we shouldn't be diligent but it is to say that if we are to live in this world- which we are commanded to do- it is inevitable we will make lawful use of things which were produced unlawfully.

So you're saying it's only a sin if we know it was made on the sabbath before we buy it? But if we find out after we buy it, its okay? Or since we didn't build it on the Sabbath then it's not a sin? From reading the 1 Corinthians 10 passage I'm coming to the conclusion that we can buy anything and it doesn't matter how it was made, including food at a restaurant. Why is that not the case?

 

[Polanus1561]

So you're saying it's only a sin if we know it was made on the sabbath before we buy it? But if we find out after we buy it, its okay? Or since we didn't build it on the Sabbath then it's not a sin? From reading the 1 Corinthians 10 passage I'm coming to the conclusion that we can buy anything and it doesn't matter how it was made, including food at a restaurant. Why is that not the case?

Here is one different angle on eating in public places on Sunday.
It is not a good testimony to people we may potentially evangelise on other days of the week.
We are using their services on Sunday. A day we would want to invite them to come to church.

 

[JMC]

Here is one different angle on eating in public places on Sunday.
It is not a good testimony to people we may potentially evangelise on other days of the week.
We are using their services on Sunday. A day we would want to invite them to come to church.

Yeah, I was just thinking of that

 

[greenbaggins]

If I may I think the problem you are having is over the issue of necessity. Works of necessity and mercy are governed by strict rules laid down in Scripture through the use of examples. Necessity and mercy are not defined as those broad, general necessities and mercies of life, but those which are absolutely necessary at that time. It is merciful to do the shopping for the frail lady who is our neighbour but it is not necessary to do this on Sabbath. Heart by-pass surgery is necessary to treat heart disease but it is not always the case that it is necessary on Sabbath. Earning a wage is necessary but that doesn't mean the work we perform to earn that wage is necessary on Sabbath. It is the work itself which must be necessary.

I used to think this way about doctors, but now I am not so sure. Jesus healed the man with the withered hand on the Sabbath, as well as the man born blind. They were not necessary healings. He could have done both of them a day before or after. Instead, He chalks them up to mercy on those occasions. The line between necessity and mercy may not always be as clear as we would like. The example of Jesus proves that healing does not need to be necessary to still be appropriate for the Sabbath. That doesn't mean I think the doctors ought to schedule more surgeries on Sunday. If they are to worship as God commanded, there need to be fewer surgeries. But the example of Jesus makes me much more reluctant to condemn doctors on these points.

 

[JMC]

So is the Sabbatarian view that you can only use electricity if is necessary? Or that you can use it for anything on the Sabbath such as making a cup of tea, microwaving some popcorn, etc.?

 

[Polanus1561]

So is the Sabbatarian view that you can only use electricity if is necessary? Or that you can use it for anything on the Sabbath such as making a cup of tea, microwaving some popcorn, etc.?

James, if someone replies here that he does not use any electricity at all on the sabbath. How does that change your view/inform you?

 

[Ben Zartman]

So is the Sabbatarian view that you can only use electricity if is necessary? Or that you can use it for anything on the Sabbath such as making a cup of tea, microwaving some popcorn, etc.?

The electrical grid exists because life as we know it could not function without. Imagine driving to church without traffic signals. Imagine how many people would die if hospital life-support systems went down. Imagine how many people could not get to church if the elevator weren't working, or would freeze to death if there were no heaters. God continues to maintain nature and the universe "my Father works and I work..." These are necessary things that could only be done without at great cost and inconvenience, and the Sabbath is supposed to be a rest, an easing of the week's burden so that God may be worshipped, not an horrible inconvenience.
The power grid worker is necessary to that--ideally the power company would rotate shifts so that different people were working on successive Sabbaths. The hotel worker is necessary; some cafeteria workers are necessary. I wish that less restaurants were open on the Lord's Day, and that all amusement parks and tourist attractions were closed, and that people planned ahead enough to not have to eat out on Lord's Days. Even when I'm travelling, I try to buy food on Saturday to microwave in the hotel so I don't need to eat out, but when that was impossible, I buy food on the Lord's Day lest the children suffer hunger.
However much you try not to, you will always be able to find a way that you're abetting some Sabbath breaking--it's the fallen nature of the world we live in. But you can still keep the Sabbath as best you can, knowing you wouldn't keep it perfectly even given the best circumstances, trusting in the God who put you in this place and time in history, and knowing that He is merciful.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

First off, can we acknowledge that the Christian Sabbath is prescribed in scripture?

 

[JimmyH]

@ 74 years old now, until I came to this forum I never heard of the concept of 'keeping the Sabbath holy' as something to be adhered to now. I became a believer @ 36 years old by reading the Bible. Began going to a Pentecostal congregation and finding the charismatic worship not to my liking changed to Baptist, and remained in that denomination up until about 11years ago when I joined the OPC.
Once I found the prescription, if that's the right word, to keep the Sabbath I began trying to do so. I found it difficult. No more stopping at the grocery store on the way home from church. Surfing the web, doing laundry, or whatever. It took awhile for me to appreciate the Lord's Day.
I asked my pastor about it and he told me the Lord's Day is a gift that our Holy Father gave us to leave our woes in this world of time behind and focus on worshipping God. I've heard Reverend D. Martyn Lloyd Jones say (paraphrasing) that if you are not content, even joyful in sanctifying the Lord's Day you'll doubtless feel out of place in the new heaven and new earth ... where that is the sum total of existence.
I do use electricity on the Lord's Day without any sense that I'm violating God's law in any way. Dare I say the very course this topic has taken brings to mind Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

That is why I asked what I did. First off we have to understand it is commanded. We have an enate sense in our being for rest and satisfaction. It is a great thing first off to have this day. It isn't supposed to be like other days. I struggle trying to keep the first commandment. I am reconciled to become and reflect something that is so unnatural to my world view as a man. I am grateful there is a place that stands every Sabbath and at least calls out to the world. Be ye reconciled to Christ. If your conscience bothers you about electricity then abstain from using it. Be careful how you judge your brother I sense a tender conscience here in these questions. I hear the frustration. I would first focus on the positives of the Law you are dealing with. Just try as a child to obey. Ask God to reveal the scriptures to you. The Negative and the Positive aspects or the Law can be summed up as Jesus put it. Love God and Your neighbor as yourself.
Dr. Blackwood taught me something years ago. It was an illustration that I think Robert or Bill recognized concerning Christ and His Love. The illustration is somewhat nautical. A submarine couldn't surface quickly or it will have major structural damage. The Human body is similar. It has to go through stages of pressurization before it can survive on the earths surface. We need a pressure chamber to bring us back to the surface. Christ is that pressure chamber.

Change and learning scripture with a trained conscience takes years as does growing up. Be careful you don't demand too much of yourself than you can perform. Be slow about developing convictions.

Here is my blog on the topic of the Sabbath.

https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.c...he-sabbath-concerning-colossians-and-hebrews/

 

[alexandermsmith]

So you're saying it's only a sin if we know it was made on the sabbath before we buy it? But if we find out after we buy it, its okay? Or since we didn't build it on the Sabbath then it's not a sin? From reading the 1 Corinthians 10 passage I'm coming to the conclusion that we can buy anything and it doesn't matter how it was made, including food at a restaurant. Why is that not the case?

There's a distinction between the food and how/when you buy it. The restaurant operating on Sabbath is breaking the Fourth Commandment by engaging in unlawful work, and the patron is breaking the Fourth Commandment by participating in that work. On the other hand, if I buy a bag of oranges at the supermarket on Saturday then even if those particular oranges were picked on a Sabbath that is not my sin. I cannot possibly know that those oranges were picked then and I have bought them on a day when it is lawful to engage in commerce. How would you know when the table was built? This is such an unlikely piece of information to come by that I would say it's practically impossible you would ever be in that situation. If you ordered a table to be made from scratch by a furniture maker and you knew he worked on Sabbath that would be a very different situation. You're then actively employing a person to break the Sabbath.

This doesn't make Sabbath breaking ok in certain circumstances (if I don't know about it it wasn't a sin): the work done on the Sabbath was still wrong. The question we are faced with is what is our culpability. I believe Scripture lays down principles to help us in this area (such as the text I quoted). It is unreasonable to expect a Christian to investigate the origins of every object or item of food they come into contact with, especially in the globalised world in which we live. But by careful conduct on the Sabbath, and "playing it safe" in certain areas, we can avoid most if not all the "difficult" issues usually mentioned when it comes to Sabbath observance. If we restrict our Sabbath activity to attendance upon the means of grace, fellowship in the homes of the brethren, reading Scripture and other profitable literature, avoiding recreations and entertainments, then we shouldn't even have to think about the sorts of questions we're discussing.

 

[alexandermsmith]

I do use electricity on the Lord's Day without any sense that I'm violating God's law in any way. Dare I say the very course this topic has taken brings to mind Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

If your use of electricity is for lawful things then there is no need to worry about it. It is of course true that we should not look at sanctifying the Sabbath as a box ticking exercise because that is to approach it with a legalistic spirit. However it is incumbent upon us to address the practical applications of the Fourth Commandment precisely because there will be Christians who, when convicted about keeping the Sabbath, may find themselves in jobs where it is not clear whether that work is lawful; or are in the habit of engaging in activities which, when greater light is brought to bear, are shown to be incompatible with the Sabbath. Once one has addressed such issues then one needn't think of them again because his conduct on Sabbath will have been conformed to Scriptural precept. But there are difficult areas which need to be addressed. Carefulness is not straining at a gnat.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I used to think this way about doctors, but now I am not so sure. Jesus healed the man with the withered hand on the Sabbath, as well as the man born blind. They were not necessary healings. He could have done both of them a day before or after. Instead, He chalks them up to mercy on those occasions. The line between necessity and mercy may not always be as clear as we would like. The example of Jesus proves that healing does not need to be necessary to still be appropriate for the Sabbath. That doesn't mean I think the doctors ought to schedule more surgeries on Sunday. If they are to worship as God commanded, there need to be fewer surgeries. But the example of Jesus makes me much more reluctant to condemn doctors on these points.

I am wary of extrapolating from Christ's miracles to draw conclusions about earthly doctors. Healing and doctoring are 2 different matters. Christ was not healing people as a doctor - His healings were a category of miracles that authenticated His ministry (as with the apostles in Acts). Thus I would posit that Christ's healings were necessary. That they were also acts of mercy seems immaterial - everything Christ did was an act of mercy. Yes, Christ's healings were acts of mercy - but, as miracles, they were much more than that.

Also, the people he healed did not have an appointment - if he did not heal them then and there as he travelled through the land during His brief ministry, it was unlikely their paths would cross again. Emergency treatment and life-sustaining care on the Sabbath? of course - but this is really more a matter of the 6th commandment than the 4th. Elective surgeries on the Lord's Day? of course not.

 

[Parakaleo]

Jesus healed the man with the withered hand on the Sabbath, as well as the man born blind. They were not necessary healings. He could have done both of them a day before or after. Instead, He chalks them up to mercy on those occasions. The line between necessity and mercy may not always be as clear as we would like. The example of Jesus proves that healing does not need to be necessary to still be appropriate for the Sabbath. That doesn't mean I think the doctors ought to schedule more surgeries on Sunday. If they are to worship as God commanded, there need to be fewer surgeries. But the example of Jesus makes me much more reluctant to condemn doctors on these points.

The difference is that Jesus did not charge anyone money for healing them on the sabbath. When I read Nehemiah 13, I am deeply impressed with Nehemiah's holy contempt against commercial activity on the sabbath ("I will lay hands on you"). I know this is easy to say, but if I were in a field of work in which I was called upon for critical, emergency work on the Lord's day (to save people's lives or to protect someone against catastrophic loss), my conscience would be to do it gratis (not charging anything for my services).

Nicholas Bownd (True Doctrine of the Sabbath) has a few words on doctors preforming life-saving work on the Lord's day and not accepting payment for it.

 

[joebonni63]

Jesus said "Man was not made for the Sabbath, The Sabbath was made for Man" I think it's more like a relaxed thing we do because even Jesus Picked food where it was growing and healed as well so it's not to really get in your way as in Legalism but if you have to do something do it ..........

 

[JMC]

James, if someone replies here that he does not use any electricity at all on the sabbath. How does that change your view/inform you?

To be honest, I want to use electricity on Sunday. I like a morning up of coffee. It would be so nice to just microwave some premade food. I also want to be able to eat out on Sunday. The problem in my life is that after reading forums and scripture I am convicted to not eat out on Sunday. Further, if I use the same logic, I should also not use electricity unless its a necessity. I know there are people here who eat out but still use electricity and I am trying to know there logic and reasoning so that way I can do the same.

Let me walk through this. There has been some great answers, but they are not satisfying me.

Argument 1: Electricity is allowed because its a necessity. Hospitals need it and police need it. I think there is a misunderstanding of how the grid works. It seems like the people holding to this view because they think that we turn the grid on and now anyone can use it without causing any extra work. Since Hospitals need it and the grid is powered we might as well use it. That's the argument, but that's not how the grid works. Every Watt that is produced by a generator is then sold to a utility company that then sends it to your house when your AC kicks on or you turn on a light. This is shocking because it happens in nanoseconds, but it does. When we use electricity it is directly cause someone else to work more. The grid could easily only power Hospitals and traffic lights and it would result in a lot less people working on the Sabbath. That's why this argument is not satisfying me because us using electricity does cause extra work.

Argument 2: Don't worry about it. I like it. But if that's the case I am not going to worry about eating out.

As of right now, as the Sabbath is nearing, I will treat the Sabbath as holy. I will not do work. I will not eat out and cause others to work. I will focus on the Lord and His wonderful works. I will still use electricity, but I have no clue why

 

[Polanus1561]

@JMC warm premade food, or any warm food for that matter, is a necessity no? Why would the day of delight mean one eats cold food?

 

[Eyedoc84]

I think some things are so basic to the functioning of life/society it would be more work to go without them. If I don't use electricity, I may (in theory) save the guy at the plant work but I've added a disproportionate amount work for myself. Not to mention in the winter I would sleep the Sabbath away. Could we go without electricity? Sure, after all, there was no electricity for thousands of years. Hospitals don't need it either, they all have generators that keep the most essential equipment running during power outages. But what have you gained?

Eating is necessary, Golden Corral is not.

I think the problem for most of us is not handwringing over our use of basic services, but our tendency to take Jesus' example of picking heads of grain to justify whatever we want by calling it "necessary". I have a lot of things to clean up about my Sabbath observance before I consider shutting my main breaker off before going to bed Saturday night.

 

[JMC]

@JMC warm premade food, or any warm food for that matter, is a necessity no? Why would the day of delight mean one eats cold food?

So, you are saying we should not use electricity if it's not a necessity. I am fine with doing that, but then it seems like I would be the only one. Why?

 

[Polanus1561]

So, you are saying we should not use electricity if it's not a necessity. I am fine with doing that, but then it seems like I would be the only one. Why?

What? What did I say? I just said warm food is good and necessary.

 

[JMC]

I think some things are so basic to the functioning of life/society it would be more work to go without them. If I don't use electricity, I may (in theory) save the guy at the plant work but I've added a disproportionate amount work for myself. Not to mention in the winter I would sleep the Sabbath away. Could we go without electricity? Sure, after all, there was no electricity for thousands of years. Hospitals don't need it either, they all have generators that keep the most essential equipment running during power outages. But what have you gained?

Eating is necessary, Golden Corral is not.

I think the problem for most of us is not handwringing over our use of basic services, but our tendency to take Jesus' example of picking heads of grain to justify whatever we want by calling it "necessary". I have a lot of things to clean up about my Sabbath observance before I consider shutting my main breaker off before going to bed Saturday night.

This makes good sense. yet there is still the issue of using things that are not necessary. not having coffee doesn't cause more work for you, but having it does for someone else. it also seems like your argument is that why worry about this small thing when there are other bigger issues. Then could someone say, "I'm still going to eat out on Sunday, because I'm still working on reading my Bible on Sunday"?

 

[retroGRAD3]

My thoughts: Try to keep the sabbath the best you can based on everything we read in scripture. Don't let it become a form a legalism or be antinomian about it, be balanced and rational. You will never be perfect, which is why we need Christ. When it comes to the exact details on what it means to keep the Sabbath, there are going to be several large categories that everyone here will agree on, but then beyond that, you will find there is a large variety of opinions on the finer details.

 

[JMC]

What? What did I say? I just said warm food is good and necessary.

Right, but you are saying a microwave is fine to use because its necessary. So are you saying you can only use electricity if its necessary? I think someone could also argue that warm food should not be allowed if its cause someone else to work. For when you microwave you are causing someone at a powerplant, utility company, or an RTO to work. Its the same thing with eating out. Why would the day of delight make us not be able to enjoy Chick-fil-a? because it causes someone to work. The same for a microwave.

 

[Eyedoc84]

This makes good sense. yet there is still the issue of using things that are not necessary. not having coffee doesn't cause more work for you, but having it does for someone else. it also seems like your argument is that why worry about this small thing when there are other bigger issues. Then could someone say, "I'm still going to eat out on Sunday, because I'm still working on reading my Bible on Sunday"?

Not quite. Eating out is not basic to the function of society in the developed world. I am to do His work and pleasure on the day as opposed to my own. Start with the principle and work out from there.

 

[Polanus1561]

Right, but you are saying a microwave is fine to use because its necessary. So are you saying you can only use electricity if its necessary? I think someone could also argue that warm food should not be allowed if its cause someone else to work. For when you microwave you are causing someone at a powerplant, utility company, or an RTO to work. Its the same thing with eating out. Why would the day of delight make us not be able to enjoy Chick-fil-a? because it causes someone to work. The same for a microwave.

I think a power plant has an element of necessity when it comes to necessary uses of power (cooking at home). Yes, of course now there will be power used to do things not to be done on the Sabbath.

Example: A Christianized nation would still have a rotating team of workers being in charge of a power plant.

 

[JMC]

My thoughts: Try to keep the sabbath the best you can based on everything we read in scripture. Don't let it become a form a legalism or be antinomian about it, be balanced and rational. You will never be perfect, which is why we need Christ.

I like it. But then I'm going to eat out.

Not quite. Eating out is not basic to the function of society in the developed world. I am to do His work and pleasure on the day as opposed to my own. Start with the principle and work out from there.

I agree, eating out is not basic to the function of society. But I'm sure a lot of Sabbatarians use electricity that is not basic to the function of society. Coffee is not necessary. A microwave is not necessary. If churches are small then sound systems are not necessary. To be honest I'm starting to think there is a better argument to eat out then there is to use electricity unnecessarily.

I think a power plant has an element of necessity when it comes to necessary uses of power (cooking at home). Yes, of course now there will be power used to do things not to be done on the Sabbath.

Example: A Christianized nation would still have a rotating team of workers being in charge of a power plant.

A powerplant is not a battery that you just turn on and leave it alone. Take for example Texas. They on average consume 50,000 MW every single instance. but it fluctuates. Every time it fluctuates a powerplant needs to modify how much power it is putting out. That means every time you flip a switch it is causing someone else to work. The demand for electricity has to always meet the supply of it otherwise things will explode

 

[greenbaggins]

The difference is that Jesus did not charge anyone money for healing them on the sabbath. When I read Nehemiah 13, I am deeply impressed with Nehemiah's holy contempt against commercial activity on the sabbath ("I will lay hands on you"). I know this is easy to say, but if I were in a field of work in which I was called upon for critical, emergency work on the Lord's day (to save people's lives or to protect someone against catastrophic loss), my conscience would be to do it gratis (not charging anything for my services).

Nicholas Bownd (True Doctrine of the Sabbath) has a few words on doctors preforming life-saving work on the Lord's day and not accepting payment for it.

I have no problem with doctors doing such surgeries gratis. That wasn't precisely the point at issue, but it would be good for doctors to do that. The point was whether non-live-saving surgeries are acceptable on the Sabbath. I am saying that I am a lot less sure than I used to be about such things.

Here is the problem that I see over and over again on the PB about the Sabbath. Many of us act as though a given application of a principle should be equally clear to all. It often is not. We are all ready to tar and feather someone who has a different view. Isn't there a reason why Scripture does NOT tease out every single possible application of Sabbath principles? Isn't it because application is not always universally applicable to all? Some things about the Sabbath are applicable to all (that Sunday is the Sabbath, that it is for public and private worship, necessary actions, and works of mercy, and that it is not just for doing any old thing we want). But as soon as we get to the level of detail, all sorts of differences emerge, and we wind up with little to no patience for anyone who DARES to have a different view on a specific application than I do. This is where I have difficulties. I have come to realize that specific application might actually vary from one person to the next. I have used this example before, but I bring it up here again. For most people, a walk enjoying God's creation could easily be chalked up to private worship, not to mention being conducive to public worship. For a champion fast-walker, the temptation to think about times would be fairly irresistible, and therefore he or she should not engage in such a walk. The same or a similar kind of action would be lawful for one person and not lawful for another person. We need to be very careful not to apply specific level of applicability to everyone without exception.

Whenever I preach on the Sabbath, I keep trying to come back to a more healthy view of the Sabbath, which is that it is a gift. Rather than wrangling all the time about what is and is not lawful on the Sabbath, most of us would do better to concentrate on the positive reasons for why God gave it to us in the first place. Beware of a legalist mindset that winds up wrangling about these things because we want to know what we can get away with rather than calling the Sabbath a delight. For some people, they seem to think that the way to honor the Sabbath is to be as dour as humanly possible.

 

[Polanus1561]

A powerplant is not a battery that you just turn on and leave it alone. Take for example Texas. They on average consume 50,000 MW every single instance. but it fluctuates. Every time it fluctuates a powerplant needs to modify how much power it is putting out. That means every time you flip a switch it is causing someone else to work. The demand for electricity has to always meet the supply of it otherwise things will explode

I... argued that power is necessary in certain situations... yes I know someone is working for my power.

 

[Polanus1561]

@JMC the people who you read here and elsewhere that has been influencing you, do they use electricity on the Sabbath?