Am I Wrong?

[Ed Walsh]

Greetings, loved by God, and a wonderful Lord's Day to you,

Am I wrong to hope that this present Judgment on our nation increases more and more until legal abortion is done away with? I am making no predictions. Perhaps a massive Revival will come? Or, maybe, our future will be like Judah's in Jeremiah's day, that no matter what the Lord brought on them by way of judgment, they refused to repent, so the Lord destroyed their city and sent them into exile. Or, as I think many wrongfully believe, Are God's sanctions and blessings are random in the New Testament period with no ethical cause and effect?

My Sum of Biblical Theology:

"The Glory of God is continually being revealed on Earth through judgment unto salvation."​

I'm really not being all that original. I got the concept from God’s Glory in Salvation through Judgment: A Biblical Theology, by James M. Hamilton Jr.

A familiar passage in context:

Jeremiah 6:15‭-‬19 KJV​

15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.​

16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.​

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.​

18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.​

19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.​

 

[Christopher Robin]

I fear that 2019 was the final year of our republic (USA), and that God is indeed judging all the Western nations who have refused to put aside grievous sins and that have "normalized" infanticide, sexual perversions, etc. The society outside of Christ will deteriorate and grow more and more defiant of God's holy law and only a remnant will remain faithful. But that expectation, perhaps, is guided by my amillennial beliefs.

I wonder how much the times in which one lives may influence their eschatology. In more optimistic times, postmillennialism was the majority report among the Reformed if I have my history right.

 

[Andrew35]

Greetings, loved by God, and a wonderful Lord's Day to you,

Am I wrong to hope that this present Judgment on our nation increases more and more until legal abortion is done away with? I am making no predictions. Perhaps a massive Revival will come? Or, maybe, our future will be like Judah's in Jeremiah's day, that no matter what the Lord brought on them by way of judgment, they refused to repent, so the Lord destroyed their city and sent them into exile. Or, as I think many wrongfully believe, Are God's sanctions and blessings are random in the New Testament period with no ethical cause and effect?

My Sum of Biblical Theology:

"The Glory of God is continually being revealed on Earth through judgment unto salvation."​

I'm really not being all that original. I got the concept from God’s Glory in Salvation through Judgment: A Biblical Theology, by James M. Hamilton Jr.

A familiar passage in context:

Jeremiah 6:15‭-‬19 KJV​

15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.​

16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.​

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.​

18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.​

19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.​

Abortion is a grave evil. Maybe our worst. But I'm inclined to think the national sin list is pretty long, at this point. And may include some to which we haven't even given much thought.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I wonder how much the times in which one lives may influence their eschatology. In more optimistic times, postmillennialism was the majority report among the Reformed if I have my history right

Hi Robin,

I think you are right in general. But there are exceptions. It's hard to explain, and I feel quite alone at this point, but the worse things get, the more hopeful I become for a massive work of the Holy Spirit In our land. Our theology is sometimes governed by what some call newspaper exegesis. But the history of God's actual working in a culture has been in the darkest of times. So I go with God. I believe the negative theology, even among the Reformed, that no longer believes in the greatness of the Great Commission is a sign that we are pretty asleep at the wheel. Who are we to say what the Master of the universe, the One to whom all power and authority in Heaven and Earth is given, might yet do in this world? He is not a tame lion.

The only real sign that I'm on to something comes from the way God has fills me with His Spirit to pray with strong crying and tears for him to come down sleeping Church. (Hebrews 5:7) I'm an underwhelming person with a newly found overwhelming desire to see the Glory of God in the land of the living. (Psalm 27:13)

 

[Ed Walsh]

Abortion is a grave evil. Maybe our worst. But I'm inclined to think the national sin list is pretty long, at this point. And may include some to which we haven't even given much thought.

I agree completely. I meant abortion as perhaps our chiefest sin with many, many close seconds and thirds. We are, as an old preacher I knew once said, "in a bad row of stumps."

 

[Morgan]

Ed, I have been praying for similar, not just due to abortion (which in itself it enough) but for everything. I could go on and list them but we are all well aware. I pray that God will give us a revival and change the direction of our country. As things in our country get worse, there is one thing that will get better (in my eyes anyway), it will purify our churches. When persecution starts it will weed out the unbelievers. A little different than you but I do not think you are wrong.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Ed, I have been praying for similar, not just due to abortion (which in itself it enough) but for everything. I could go on and list them but we are all well aware. I pray that God will give us a revival and change the direction of our country. As things in our country get worse, there is one thing that will get better (in my eyes anyway), it will purify our churches. When persecution starts it will weed out the unbelievers. A little different than you but I do not think you are wrong

No, Morgan, we're not different on this point at all. I didn't discuss every part of what I thought could be part of my hope. I posted recently that Reformed sometimes forget that the visible Church God is dealing with is a lot broader than just we Reformed.

Here's a simple 29-minute sermon I'm just finishing. It has a natural, earthy feeling about it. See if it doesn't move you a little, at least. It's titled, America Revival or Ruin. It's not particularly Reformed, I'm smiling, but I think you'll like it.

America Revival Or Ruin

E. A. Johnston | Evangelism Awakening

www.sermonaudio.com

 

[B.L.]

"Am I wrong to hope that this present Judgment on our nation increases more and more..."

Personally, I think it is important to make a distinction between what I hope for and what I believe our nation deserves. I don't hope for an increase in God's judgment upon our nation, but I know God is just in rendering it. My hope is that the gospel clarion will be heard in our churches, in our neighborhoods, in our schools, in our businesses, everywhere and that God will send a great revival throughout this land. Rather than increased judgment serving as the spark my hope is that the gospel message will sound more loudly, clearly, and forcefully. Perhaps an increase in the former will drive the latter, but my hope is in the good news of Jesus Christ. My hope is that God will be merciful in giving our nation what it doesn't deserve: revival.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Personally, I think it is important to make a distinction between what I hope for and what I believe our nation deserves. I don't hope for an increase in God's judgment upon our nation, but I know God is just in rendering it.

Good point. My current study of Jerimiah has perhaps made me expect the worse, but I hope for the best like you. It would be more accurate if I prefaced it with "if that is what it takes." But a revival without additional judgment would be my preference too. God has been outrageously merciful to me my whole life and not at all dealt with me as my sins deserve. If God gave us the judgment we deserve, we would have been nuked off the map some time ago.

Thanks for the correction.

Ed

 

[Christopher Robin]

Like you, I pray expectantly for another national revival. Not Finnyish, but God-breathed. It is our only hope of avoiding either civil war or the collapse of the great American experiment.

 

[Poimen]

Ed: No, in general, I do not think you are wrong. When I read the prophets denouncing the sins of the nations around Israel & Judah I cannot help but believe that was written for our learning too. That seems to be implied (if not explicit) by Romans 1:18.

However, I think you are narrowly focused on the application of this judgment to the United States. Remember that Canada too, along with most Western nations, is being pressed by the heel of God (alluding to here Psalm 108:9). Not just the sickness of Covid and the chaos it causes (what with the rampant fear of death, judging of neighbours, division in families etc.) but the overreach and creeping tyranny of our respective governments is a sure sign of judgment.

Sometimes I have thought to myself that despite natural immunity and whatever protection the vaccines give us, that perhaps it is not God's design to take away Covid until repentance comes. I cannot say for certain but it has occupied my mind for some time. Certainly we can all agree that our countries need to turn unto the Lord and that, barring that, judgment is certain. Whether it come in forty days (Nineveh) or 120 years (Noah's generation), only God knows.

I would have to disagree with what you say about abortion though. As heinous as that act is, idolatry (being in the first table of law) is a greater affront to God's holiness and our nations are rampant with it. Indeed, many churches are infected with idolatry and false worship - this will not escape his gaze either (1 Corinthians 11:32 with 1 Peter 4:17).

 

[Ed Walsh]

However, I think you are narrowly focused on the application of this judgment to the United States. Remember that Canada too, along with most Western nations, is being pressed by the heel of God (alluding to here Psalm 108:9). Not just the sickness of Covid and the chaos it causes (what with the rampant fear of death, judging of neighbours, division in families etc.) but the overreach and creeping tyranny of our respective governments is a sure sign of judgment.

Sorry to neglect Canada. :-( For that matter, I think pretty much the whole world is in trouble.
My mistake.

Ed

 

[Deleted member 11889]

I agree completely. I meant abortion as perhaps our chiefest sin with many, many close seconds and thirds. We are, as an old preacher I knew once said, "in a bad row of stumps."

When I see children as young as 5 or 6 being encouraged to experiment with "alternative sexualities" and pressed ponder what their REAL gender is, I sometimes wonder if the aborted babies aren't the fortunate ones. I pray that God will reveal his will and purpose in all of this, and with haste, whether it be judgment, revival, pruning, growth, or some combination.

 

[lynnie]

There is a Lloyd Jones sermon, and I forget which one, where he discusses the passage in Revelation where people did not repent of their wickedness despite terrible judgements. ( 9:20-21, after the 6th trumpet). He said that we long to see God judge wickedness around us so as to put an end to it, but it does not mean it will. Ninevah repented, but not the people in Revelation. He cautioned against the false hope that catastrophic events guarantee repentance.

I tend to hope that anyway, almost as a knee jerk reaction when I read things about say normalizing pedophilia and other trashy horrible directions we are headed. But mostly I stick to praying for a great revival/Reformation.

I also pray almost every day for God to take care of his people. I believe we face economic ruin ( promises to pay up to 180 trillion in SS, medicare, medicaid, etc, that can never be paid), breakdowns in electricity and energy sectors, major earthquakes like Cascadia and/or New Madrid, loss of food with the loss of fertilizers, more crime and lawlessness, more communism and loss of freedoms, etc. Yet we can have a profound harvest of souls in the middle of it.

Its weird Ed, abortion doesn't really get to me anymore like it used to. I mean it profoundly used to get to me. Its more like I hope Warfield is right and every single baby is in heaven. Its been replaced on the emotional gut level with pedophila, and all the little kids who have to live with the scars and trauma and often end up in reprobate lives because of it. Pedophila is so endemic and a lot of criminals in high places get away with it. I hate it. I guess God gives us different and shifting prayer burdens. Thanks for your prayers!!! Remember Elijah was one man just like you.....may your prayers usher in the rain we so desperately need.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Am I wrong to hope that this present Judgment on our nation increases more and more until legal abortion is done away with? I am making no predictions. Perhaps a massive Revival will come? Or, maybe, our future will be like Judah's in Jeremiah's day, that no matter what the Lord brought on them by way of judgment, they refused to repent, so the Lord destroyed their city and sent them into exile. Or, as I think many wrongfully believe, Are God's sanctions and blessings are random in the New Testament period with no ethical cause and effect?

The Blessing of God's Judgments.

I thought I should add one of the Scriptures that moved me to think along these lines.

Isaiah 26:9-10​

At night my soul longs for You. Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently;​

For when the earth experiences Your judgments, The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.​

Though the wicked person is shown compassion, He does not learn righteousness;​

He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the Lord.​