Are we sinners or not?

[ServantofGod]

O.k., umm...I don't really know how to word this, so hang in there. I was just recently thinking(yes, I do that sometimes), and you know how we believe that all men are sinners? Well, we also believe that before the foundations of the world, we were chosen by God, in Christ Jesus, to be children of God. We were elected, and written in the Lamb's book of life before the begginning of time. How does that tie in with us having been dead in sin? If we were made righteous before time began(for Christ's righteousness was given to us before creation), we were righteous before the foundations of the world, how could we have been dead in sin? We were already saved. Why would we need to be saved?

I dunno...Just kinda confusing...

 

[Peter]

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First, yes we are dead to sin, the power and the dominion of sin is defeated (Ro 6) yet there remains in us indwelling sin. The Holy Spirit day by day kills more of the outward man and quickens the inward (sanctificaton), but we will not acheive perfection until heaven.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Second, we were not made righteous before the foundation of the world but the decree and the covenant to save us was. We are declared righteous in time when we receive Christ through faith (justification). We are progressively made righteous through our whole lives (sanctification).

 

[~~Susita~~]

Good question, and I'll tell you all about how it works.


... Just kidding. Really, good question.

 

[Peter]

John Murray, "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" will really tidy up your thinking on these potentially confusing matters.

[Edited on 6-2-2006 by Peter]

 

[Puritanhead]

"Sin boldy!"
"”Martin Luther

Accept your status as a lowly sinner, and place your trust in the finished work on the Cross, and His perfect meritous sacrifice and perfect righteousness.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by Peter
John Murray, "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" will really tidy up your understanding on these potentially confusing matters.

Good book.

 

[ServantofGod]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
"Sin boldy!"
"”Martin Luther

Accept your status as a lowly sinner, and place your trust in the finished work on the Cross, and His perfect meritous sacrifice and perfect righteousness.

But that is what I don't get. The work of the cross was finished, in eternity, BEFORE we were created.

[Edited on 6-2-2006 by ServantofGod]

 

[Peter]

(1) The Son of God fulfiled the Law and rose from the dead on earth, in time not eternity. The decree of election and the covenant of redemption were before time not the accomplishment of redemption.
(2) We are justified when we receive Christ in faith and his righteousness is imputed to us, not in eternity (I believe some hyper-calvinists, or hoeksemaites might quibble with this) .

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[ServantofGod]

So we were elected in time, not eternity?

 

[Peter]

We're elected in eternity. Election is God's decree, or determination to save us.

We're justified in time. Justification is when God proclaims us holy, guiltless and upright. (when we are saved)

 

[Peter]

Romans 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/ordosalutis.html

 

[ServantofGod]

*scratches head* This is complicated...

Elected before time, justified in time, set apart as perfect in Jesus Christ before time, still seen as sinners in time...

Totally depraved, yet holy...

 

[Peter]

1. God decides to save you 2. God does the work necessary to save you 3. God applies the work of salvation to you.

your minister will know how to explain it to you

I also recommend buyin this

 

[ServantofGod]

How would God decide to save us? A decision is made at a certain time. God is in eternity, there is no time...(Sorry, these things just bug me...)

[Edited on 6-2-2006 by ServantofGod]

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
"Sin boldy!"
"”Martin Luther

Accept your status as a lowly sinner, and place your trust in the finished work on the Cross, and His perfect meritous sacrifice and perfect righteousness.

I am bold to say, no man ever had his strength in God until he had lost all his own. I am bold to say, from scripture and experience that no man ever felt or ever knew, spiritually or experimentally what it was to put his trust in God, who had not been thoroughly weaned and emptied from putting all trust and confidence in himself
- J.C. Philpot

I've been iching for any occasion to post that quote.

 

[ServantofGod]

?

 

[turmeric]

God knew that we would sin before He made us; before He made us therefore, He designed the plan for our salvation, and elected who He would save. He did not count them righteous then, but planned that those he chose would be counted righteous. Now in time, His plan is working out.

 

[Puritanhead]

The Bible says, God set his love on us, "before the foundation of time." You're right God exists outside of time, yet he is omnipotent and omnipresent.

Seriously, the book Redemption Accomplished and Applied that Peter recommends is a good book... it's an overview of the ordo salutis-- Latin for "order of salvation" and it's a good breakdown of God's role in redemptive history, and in the life of the believer.

 

[larryjf]

I think the ordus salutis (order of salvation) answers much of the original issue...

1. Election
2. The gospel call
3. Regeneration
4. Conversion
5. Justification
6. Adoption
7. Sanctification
8. Perseverance
9. Death
10. Glorification

 

[Texas Aggie]

We were placed "in" Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:22). This is a spiritual adoption... similar to your physical connection to Adam ("in" Adam all die...1 Corinthians 15:22). You can be directly traced back to the loins of Adam and you can be spiritually traced back to your placement in Christ.

Those placed "œin" Christ are those whose names are written in the Book of Life"¦.these are the ones that God will reveal His covenant to "œin time." They were chosen for an eternal salvation via His provisions accomplished by the terms of the New Covenant.

Your justification occurred "œin time""¦that is at the time of Christ´s atonement (satisfaction of the law that required death). When Christ "œsatisfied" the righteous demand of God´s law via death and bloodshed, those that have been placed in the Book of Life from before the foundation are no longer viewed as Adam´s descendents. When God looks at you, He now sees His sacrifice for sin. God provided the means which satisfied Himself via the blood of His Son at the throne.

This is not the end of your salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13). Your justification is just the beginning of where God is getting you"¦perfect obedience to His law (absolute holiness). Christ satisfied the demand of the law which requires your eternal death"¦He did not free you from obedience to His law. This is simply an expectation of His kingdom.

Under the terms of the New Covenant, you have a new heart (spiritual circumcision) and the equipment (His Spirit) to obey His law perfectly"¦you probably won´t, but you can. These are just two of the provisions He has provided the Gentile under the terms of the New Covenant. Your walk with God (following after His Spirit within you) is part of the process of your sanctification. Your "œwill" is directly involved.

You were once a sinner"¦but not anymore. Before your regeneration, you knew nothing but sin and walked about this earth as a "œsinner." Now, you are a child of God who is commanded to "œsin not." You have an extreme sensitivity to sin because of God´s Spirit and you now know what sin is via the law written in your heart/mind. The Spirit will not lead you to do anything contrary to God´s law.

As far as righteousness is concerned, there are two. One is "œyour righteousness," the other is "œHis righteousness." "œHis righteousness" is imputed to you (this is the righteousness that exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees). Before your regeneration"¦your righteousness is counted as filthy rags (means nothing to God). After your regeneration, "œyour righteousness" is set forth by His Spirit. He leads, you follow (and you make the decision to do the will of God"¦just as Adam had a choice). This is "œyour righteousness" which is simply an expectation of the lawgiver.

His imputed righteousness provides for your justification (which sets you in a proper standing with God). Your walk with the Spirit is a process to holiness which involves you. Sanctification is something that you are directly involved with (simply because you have a will and a party to His Covenant). This is why God has provided His chosen with a new heart, His law and His Spirit. It is to eventually free the believer from sin, the world and the devil. The New Covenant provides the means to consecrate the individual to God and place you in a proper standing as Adam once enjoyed.


[Edited on 6-2-2006 by Texas Aggie]

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Simul justus et peccator

 

[bradofshaw]

These are just my thoughts, might not be the best answer...

*scratches head* This is complicated...

Elected before time, justified in time, set apart as perfect in Jesus Christ before time, still seen as sinners in time...

Totally depraved, yet holy...

One thing that might help, is to consider the statement "before time" more closely. It is not meant to be a description of a chronological order of events. When we say that God elected to save his people before time began, the emphasis is that God did not decide to save His people in reaction to the fall. Rather, the fall was part of God's redemptive story which was conceived in the mind of God outside of time.

In other words, there was not a point in time when God decided to create the world and save a people for Himself. God exists outside of time. He has always, as part of his being God, determined to unfold His redemptive plan.

Prior to His creation of the world, I don't think we can say there was linear time. However, upon his creation of the world, God interacts with time in a linear sense. He has written himself into the story. He dwelt with man in the garden, he spoke to the patriarchs and the prophets, he became a real man, and his Spirit dwells within us. I would even say that in response to our prayers, he actively works within time. It is also very important to understand that the covenant is the format by which God deals with us in time.

I think that when God views us, he doesn't view us as say, Brad in 2006. He views the complete span of my life, from my time as a sinner, to my conversion, to my sanctification, and my glorification. In each of these stages God sees Christ. As a sinner, he sees Christ accursed in my place. As a believer, he sees me as walking in covenant with him, but united into the covenant with Christ as my head. When I sin, he sees Christ as the keeper of the covenant. And the beautiful part about God's eternal decree, is that when he views me he sees my future glorification, when I will be made new and unable to sin. At that point, he sees me as united to Christ as by marriage, a part of the church, the glorified bride of Christ.

It is not for us to know the mind of God, or his eternal decrease. We cannot place ourselves outside of linear time in order to understand fully what it means for God to view us based on his eternal decrease, and how exactly those interact with our timeline. He has, however, given us a glimpse into his eternal plan via the completed revelation of the scriptures. We have the finished story, albeit abridged, which suffices to tell us everything we need to understand for our salvation and sanctification.

I would also like to disagree with Mr. Luther (not sure in what context he said that). I don't believe the Bible ever tells us to sin boldly. However, we are told to draw near to God with confidence because of the blood of Christ. So even when we sin, we can be bold in continually submitting to the grace of God in Christ.