As if we need one more reason NOT to buy a Christ-mass tree

[Peter]

Because of the Regulative Principle of Worship.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

WCF 21:I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

 

[ChristopherPaul]

Originally posted by Peter
Because of the Regulative Principle of Worship.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

WCF 21:I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

I am not suggesting that we incorporate pagan practices during the Lord´s Day service.

But then again, I do not take off my wedding band before worshipping with the church.

 

[historyb]

I like Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc. Withouth these things we might as well just all be hating family get togethers and celebrating Christ. my

This is which was actually a reason I was told to stay away from reformed type stuff, to legalistic. I don't listen too good.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by historyb]

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Originally posted by Peter
Because of the Regulative Principle of Worship.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

WCF 21:I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

I am not suggesting that we incorporate pagan practices during the Lord´s Day service.

But then again, I do not take off my wedding band before worshipping with the church.

It doesn't matter what their origin is, so long as they are not from God they condemned by God.

Puritan Worship

 

[ChristopherPaul]

Originally posted by Peter

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Originally posted by Peter
Because of the Regulative Principle of Worship.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

WCF 21:I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

I am not suggesting that we incorporate pagan practices during the Lord´s Day service.

But then again, I do not take off my wedding band before worshipping with the church.

It doesn't matter what their origin is, so long as they are not from God they condemned by God.

Puritan Worship

But I don't think anyone here is arguing about what to do while worshipping as an assembly.

This is, and has been, a matter of the home. Shall I have a lawfully ordained minister preach the word and administer the sacraments to my family everyday because of the RPW? Of course not, and that is not what we are discussing here.

 

[Peter]

For one, many Protestant Churches do import Xmass celebrations into the "public assembly".

Two, I will let Brian Schwertley speak (Jeff posted this earlier in the debate), I agree with him here:

III. There is no question that Christmas has no place in the public worship of God, but isn't it okay to celebrate it privately in the home?

The problem with this view is that it presupposes that the Regulative Principle only applies to public worship. There is no biblical evidence to support the idea that the Regulative Principle was only meant for public worship. In fact, the biblical evidence supports the opposite view. Cain was condemned for an innovation in private worship (Gen. 4:2-8). Noah, in family worship, offered clean animals to God (Gen. 8:20-21). God was pleased and accepted Noah's offering on behalf of himself and his family. Abraham, Jacob and Job offered sacrifices to God in private or family worship, according to God's Word. God accepted these lawful offerings. The idea that innovations in worship are permitted in family and private worship is unbiblical; it is totally arbitrary because it is not based on divine revelation. If an innovation in public worship displeases God, then how does it please Him in private worship? Would it not be permissible, under such premises, to have little shrines in our homes where we burn incense, wear surplices, miters and such, as long as we keep such things out of public meetings?

There are some differences between public and private worship (e.g., private worship should occur two to three times a day, whereas public worship should occur at least once every Lord's day.) People in Reformed denominations who brought in unbiblical innovations such as Christmas, women teaching the Bible and theology to men in Bible studies and Sunday school, hymns and Christmas carols, etc., did not seek to justify these new innovations by appealing to Scripture. Instead, they arbitrarily set these activities outside of the Regulative Principle by pronouncing them all as under the sphere of private worship. Pastors and their flocks are so in love with their innovations that they resort to mystification. They act as if their pastor is a pope or bishop and has the authority to turn private worship (where they assume human autonomy is permitted) into public worship (where the Word reigns supreme) by saying "thus begins the public worship of God." Where in the Bible is public worship relegated to a few hours on the Lord's day?39 Jesus Christ said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). How is a woman teaching several men on the Sabbath private? How are fifty people singing Christmas carols engaging in private worship? Do not presuppose that God permits innovation and human autonomy in private worship. Try to prove it from the Word of God. You cannot. Do not arbitrarily declare what is obviously public worship as private. The rabbis of old justified all sorts of nonsense with such reasoning.

The Bible says, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" (1 Cor. 5:6; Gal. 5:9). When Presbyterian pastors and elders stopped disciplining church members for celebrating Christmas in the home in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, they virtually guaranteed that the pagan-popish leaven of Christmas would spread. In fact, it has. One must search far and wide to find a Presbyterian home or church where this popish invention is not celebrated. 40

 

[Augusta]

Originally posted by historyb
I like Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc. Withouth these things we might as well just all be hating family get togethers and celebrating Christ. my

This is which was actually a reason I was told to stay away from reformed type stuff, to legalistic. I don't listen too good.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by historyb]

Doug, is it legalistic to believe that the revealed word of God is our only rule for faith and practice?? God's commands are not to be taken lightly. Think of the most powerful earthly sovereign king, who can take your life or your livelyhood from you with a word. Now times that by infinity. He is not only all of those things but instead of just killing you and taking away your livelyhood he can take your very soul and justly torment you for eternity. Would you not tremble before him.

Would you try his long-suffering of your sin with parties and traditions that he has not commanded? And if that doesn't sound so bad what if these parties and revelries mirrored pagan ones of old that are still practiced by modern day pagans but you whitewash them and call them something different to make is sound good. Would you do them anyway after all that this wonderful God had done for you?

 

[historyb]

23"Everything is permissible""”but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible""”but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[c]

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d]"” 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God"” 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

1 Cor 10:23-31

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by historyb]

 

[Augusta]

Amen!! That does not trump other scriptures that speak to offering of praise or sacrifice of praise to God. Sincerity is not the model. Was Cain sacrifice acceptable? No. Able's was because he obeyed. Cain was angry that his was not accepted.

There is a right way and a wrong way to approach God and to worship God.

 

[historyb]

Maybe I am in the wrong place since some think holidays are evil.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by historyb]

 

[Saiph]

Originally posted by historyb
Maybe I am in the wrong place since some think holidays are evil.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by historyb]

You are not in the wrong place Doug. Great theologians like Francis Turretin agree with you:

Concerning the celebration of holidays:

Hence we cannot approve of the rigid judgment of those who charge such churches with idolatry (in which those days are still kept, the names of the saints being retained), since they agree with us in doctrine concerning the worship of God alone and detest the idolatry of the papists.
Francis Turretin - Institutes of Elenctic Theology (p. 104)

Modern day teachers like Brian Schwertley could not even hold a candle for him either.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Saiph

Christ kept the whole law perfectly. Ceremonial, civil, moral. If we live in Him, we are saved by His works. He is our Passover. So if we celebrate the freedom from Egypt, the type of our bondage to sin, with a hebrew feast, that still points to Christ after the fact, what is the big deal ? The celebration does not save us, faith in Christ, the lamb slain before the foundation of the world does.

Which Hebrew feast are you speaking of? One modeled after the practices of the unbelieving rabbinic Jews?

Biblical passover had a slain lamb. No lamb, no passover.

The NT replaced the passover with the Lord's Supper. Celebrating some ersatz passover is a denial of the work of Christ.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Saiph

Originally posted by historyb
Maybe I am in the wrong place since some think holidays are evil.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by historyb]

You are not in the wrong place Doug. Great theologians like Francis Turretin agree with you:

Concerning the celebration of holidays:

Hence we cannot approve of the rigid judgment of those who charge such churches with idolatry (in which those days are still kept, the names of the saints being retained), since they agree with us in doctrine concerning the worship of God alone and detest the idolatry of the papists.
Francis Turretin - Institutes of Elenctic Theology (p. 104)

Modern day teachers like Brian Schwertley could not even hold a candle for him either.

And great theologians of old disagree with you.

 

[Saiph]

Many Godly men disagree with me Gabriel. So allow those of us who celebrate within our liberty, to enjoy Advent, 12 days of Christmas, and Epiphany in good conscience and faith towards God.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Saiph
Many Godly men disagree with me Gabriel. So allow those of us who celebrate within our liberty, to enjoy Advent, 12 days of Christmas, and Epiphany in good conscience and faith towards God.

I will gladly allow anyone their liberty in Christ to do as they wish by faith, so long as it is not expressly warned and commanded against in God's Word.

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Originally posted by Saiph
Many Godly men disagree with me Gabriel. So allow those of us who celebrate within our liberty, to enjoy Advent, 12 days of Christmas, and Epiphany in good conscience and faith towards God.

I will gladly allow anyone their liberty in Christ to do as they wish by faith, so long as it is not expressly warned and commanded against in God's Word.

So we're all good to go then?

 

[piningforChrist]

Gabe,

Is the church exclusively bound to hold corporate times of worship on the Lord's Day, or are there prescriptions in Scripture that allow for meeting more often, for the sake of the body? If additional voluntary meetings are allowed for in Scripture, must this voluntary meeting be limited to special circumstances, or may it also be held on traditional days as well?

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by piningforChrist
Gabe,

Is the church exclusively bound to hold corporate times of worship on the Lord's Day, or are there prescriptions in Scripture that allow for meeting more often, for the sake of the body? If additional voluntary meetings are allowed for in Scripture, must this voluntary meeting be limited to special circumstances, or may it also be held on traditional days as well?

Churches are allowed to. The following rules would apply however:

1) People would not be bound to come. It would be optional.
2) The day could not be looked upon as holy. This rules out Christ-mass and easter. God has one holy day, and only he can pronounce it to be so.

 

[piningforChrist]

What if we do not view Christmas and Easter as holy, but only as days of special thanksgiving and remembrance to God for acts that He performed in history?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by piningforChrist
What if we do not view Christmas and Easter as holy, but only as days of special thanksgiving and remembrance to God for acts that He performed in history?

Is "worship" going to be part of this "remembrance"?

 

[piningforChrist]

Thanksgiving and Scripture reading will be, not the Lord's Day worship in the full sense.

 

[piningforChrist]

Is that ok?

 

[Saiph]

Is "worship" going to be part of this "remembrance"?

For want of a nail the kingdom was lost.

 

[gwine]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by piningforChrist
Gabe,

Is the church exclusively bound to hold corporate times of worship on the Lord's Day, or are there prescriptions in Scripture that allow for meeting more often, for the sake of the body? If additional voluntary meetings are allowed for in Scripture, must this voluntary meeting be limited to special circumstances, or may it also be held on traditional days as well?

Churches are allowed to. The following rules would apply however:

1) People would not be bound to come. It would be optional.
2) The day could not be looked upon as holy. This rules out Christ-mass and easter. God has one holy day, and only he can pronounce it to be so.

Romans 14

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.

 

[Arch2k]

Me thinks me should have just posted the whole article.

I. Doesn't Romans 14:5-6 allow Christians to celebrate Christmas?

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it" (Rom. 14:5-6).

1. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, was addressing a situation unique to the early church. There were Jewish believers who "regarded the holy days of the ceremonial economy as having abiding sanctity."33 The "days" spoken of in Romans were days commanded by God in the old economy. Paul is "referring to the ceremonial holy days of the Levitical institution."34 Virtually all commentators concur with this interpretation.35 Paul allows for diversity in the church over the issue of Jewish holy days because of the unique historical circumstances. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the ceremonial aspects of the law (e.g., animal sacrifices, Jewish holy days, circumcision, etc.) were done away with. Yet prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70, the apostles allowed certain practices by Jewish Christians as long as no works-righteousness was attributed to these practices. In Acts 21:26, we even encounter the apostle Paul going to the Temple "to announce the expiration of the days of purification." Jewish believers who were already accustomed to keeping certain holy days of the Mosaic economy were allowed to continue doing so for a time. But once the Temple was destroyed, the canon of Scripture was completed, and the church had existed for a whole generation, these unique historical circumstances ceased. And even if this passage were still applicable to our present situation, it could not be used to justify Christmas, because these days were not "Christianized" pagan holy days nor arbitrary holy days set up by man. Therefore, if this passage were still applicable to our situation, it could only be used to justify the private celebration of Jewish holy days by weak Jewish believers. It cannot be used as a justification for man-made days or pagan days which God has not commanded.

2. Not only does this passage not allow Christians to celebrate Christmas, it most certainly forbids holding Christmas services of any kind and having Christmas fellowships or parties. Paul allows for diversity in the church over this issue (i.e., Jewish holy days). Both parties are to accept each other for the sake of peace and unity in the church. Both parties believe that they are obeying the Word of God. "Compelled conformity or pressure exerted to the end of securing conformity defeats the aims to which all the exhortations and reproofs are directed."36 Therefore, it would be wrong for the weak Jewish believers to force the church to have a worship service in honor of a ceremonial holy day, because the strong Gentile believers would feel compelled to attend the public worship of God. Therefore, those who did celebrate Jewish holy days had to do it privately unto the Lord. Those who use this passage to justify celebrating Christmas would likewise be forced by Paul's injunction to keep the day a private affair. Thus, Christmas services and church Christmas parties would cease, for they violate the freedom of Christians not to celebrate such a day. Of course, Christmas, not being commanded by God and being a monument to idolatry, is forbidden, anyway.37

Pastors and elders who do authorize a Christmas service abuse their office. The pastor and governors of a church receive their authority from God. They are responsible to rule the church according to the Word of God. When pastors and elders authorize a special Christmas service, they do so on their own authority, because there is no warrant from the Word of God to do so. Therefore, in this one point they act no differently than the pope or a bishop. They intrude a human invention into the church. Those in the church who refuse to take part in a pagan-popish festival day, who refuse to worship God according to man's imagination, who refuse to worship God without divine authorization, are forced by the church leadership to remain at home instead of attending the public worship of God. Thus, in this point, many presbyters act like popes, prelates and tyrants over God's flock, because they take away the freedom we have in Christ to worship God as one body publicly "in Spirit and in truth" on the Lord's day

 

[piningforChrist]

What if we do not view Christmas and Easter as holy, but only as days of special thanksgiving and remembrance to God for acts that He performed in history, attended with thanksgiving and reading of the Word?

Does someone want to respond? Is this ok?

 

[Peter]

Gal 4: 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

The context is Jewish festivals, but then so is Ro 14

 

[piningforChrist]

And a binding observance of such festivals, which a remembrace and thanksgiving on days such as Christmas and Easter would not be.

 

[Peter]

Appointing days of religious thanksgiving on Christmas and Easter certainly would not be "fleeing all appearance of evil." Not to mention that it would be a terrible occasion for falling into the supersition of respecting the day as holy

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]