Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Did Augustine believe in particular redemption? I know he believed in the other four points-to-be of Calvinism, but what about the atonement?
Chris
Chris
Augustine on particular redemption
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Of course he did. Calvin stole everything he knew from Augustine.
Some people quote the following to say he does not:
[quote:22ac201ea9]
Augustine (A.D. 354-430). Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are
also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example,
Augustine once said: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do
you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price:
what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?" [/quote:22ac201ea9]
But considering his other stateents like this:
(Enchiridion, Chap. 103) "The Lord was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said frankly, would have repented if He had worked them."
I think he embraced a view of sufficient/efficient atonement that is not fully correct but amazing for his time.
[quote:22ac201ea9]
Augustine held that God, having from all eternity elected some to everlasting life, had special reference to their salvation only when He covenanted with the Son to make atonement. Subsequently Lutherans and Calvinists agreed as to the worth of the Atonement but came to differ as to its design. While Augustine and Calvin maintained that it was designed only for the elect, Luther maintained that it had equal reference to all mankind individually. Charles Hodge observed that what Christ suffered would have been just as necessary if only one human soul had been the object of redemption, yet nothing more would have been required had every child of Adam been redeemed. (Systematic Theology, Vol. II, p. 545.) It was Augustine who, with his characteristic genius for abbreviated statement of truth, gave us the couplet "sufficient for all, efficient for the elect only." Following his insight many others have sought to give expression to the same thought in different ways. It is possible to tabulate these different modes of expression somewhat as follows by saying that the Lord's sacrifice was
potentially infinite but actually limited
unlimited in value but limited in intention
infinite in worth but finite in application
limitless as to its capacity but limited in its effect
unlimited atonement but limited redemption
[/quote:22ac201ea9]
Really John Owen answered it finally for all of us in "Death of Death".
[Edited on 3-8-2004 by Visigoth]
Some people quote the following to say he does not:
[quote:22ac201ea9]
Augustine (A.D. 354-430). Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are
also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example,
Augustine once said: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do
you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price:
what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?" [/quote:22ac201ea9]
But considering his other stateents like this:
(Enchiridion, Chap. 103) "The Lord was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said frankly, would have repented if He had worked them."
I think he embraced a view of sufficient/efficient atonement that is not fully correct but amazing for his time.
[quote:22ac201ea9]
Augustine held that God, having from all eternity elected some to everlasting life, had special reference to their salvation only when He covenanted with the Son to make atonement. Subsequently Lutherans and Calvinists agreed as to the worth of the Atonement but came to differ as to its design. While Augustine and Calvin maintained that it was designed only for the elect, Luther maintained that it had equal reference to all mankind individually. Charles Hodge observed that what Christ suffered would have been just as necessary if only one human soul had been the object of redemption, yet nothing more would have been required had every child of Adam been redeemed. (Systematic Theology, Vol. II, p. 545.) It was Augustine who, with his characteristic genius for abbreviated statement of truth, gave us the couplet "sufficient for all, efficient for the elect only." Following his insight many others have sought to give expression to the same thought in different ways. It is possible to tabulate these different modes of expression somewhat as follows by saying that the Lord's sacrifice was
potentially infinite but actually limited
unlimited in value but limited in intention
infinite in worth but finite in application
limitless as to its capacity but limited in its effect
unlimited atonement but limited redemption
[/quote:22ac201ea9]
Really John Owen answered it finally for all of us in "Death of Death".
[Edited on 3-8-2004 by Visigoth]
AnonymousRex
Puritan Board Freshman
Goth,
[quote:a0c5216bf6]Calvin stole everything he knew from Augustine.[/quote:a0c5216bf6]
Calvin "stole" [i:a0c5216bf6]everything[/i:a0c5216bf6]? Don't you think that's a bit extreme?
AnonRex
[quote:a0c5216bf6]Calvin stole everything he knew from Augustine.[/quote:a0c5216bf6]
Calvin "stole" [i:a0c5216bf6]everything[/i:a0c5216bf6]? Don't you think that's a bit extreme?
AnonRex
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
[quote:98f67d0c03][i:98f67d0c03]Originally posted by Visigoth[/i:98f67d0c03]
[quote:98f67d0c03]
Calvin "stole" everything? Don't you think that's a bit extreme?
[/quote:98f67d0c03]
The truth is always extreme.
Calvin was a novelty for me until I read Augustine. [/quote:98f67d0c03]
Still, as Piper says, we continually need fresh statements of old truths. Furthermore, Calvin greatly and repeatedly acknowledges his vast debt to Augustine throughout the [i:98f67d0c03]Institutes[/i:98f67d0c03].
Chris
[quote:98f67d0c03]
Calvin "stole" everything? Don't you think that's a bit extreme?
[/quote:98f67d0c03]
The truth is always extreme.
Calvin was a novelty for me until I read Augustine. [/quote:98f67d0c03]
Still, as Piper says, we continually need fresh statements of old truths. Furthermore, Calvin greatly and repeatedly acknowledges his vast debt to Augustine throughout the [i:98f67d0c03]Institutes[/i:98f67d0c03].
Chris
AnonymousRex
Puritan Board Freshman
The reason why I asked that question is because your statement carries with it certain negative connotations which, based upon my understanding of Calvin, do the man no justice.
To say that he "stole" from Augustine puts Calvin in an insidious light. It makes him look like some crafty plagiarist who read the ancient works and duplicated a few aphorisms, re-wording them to make his work appear original. Why would he do such a thing? The man was already ticked off with the Catholics for deceiving the world with their doctrine; what would make you think he would consciously defraud anyone himself? To what end? And, as Blue said, Calvin gave credit where it was due.
AnonRex
To say that he "stole" from Augustine puts Calvin in an insidious light. It makes him look like some crafty plagiarist who read the ancient works and duplicated a few aphorisms, re-wording them to make his work appear original. Why would he do such a thing? The man was already ticked off with the Catholics for deceiving the world with their doctrine; what would make you think he would consciously defraud anyone himself? To what end? And, as Blue said, Calvin gave credit where it was due.
AnonRex
[quote:7714989f1e]
To say that he "stole" from Augustine puts Calvin in an insidious light.
[/quote:7714989f1e]
Not neccessarily.
Shakespeare stole the plots and themes for all his plays from the ancient greeks and the Bible. But, by re-familirizing the people with them in such a modern and crafty way, he was a genius.
Calvin is the same way. He leads the Church by the hand back to the truths of the bible Augustine formalized long before.
I am simply saying the concept of "Limited Atonement" was around before Calvin, and we should not credit the idea to him.
To say that he "stole" from Augustine puts Calvin in an insidious light.
[/quote:7714989f1e]
Not neccessarily.
Shakespeare stole the plots and themes for all his plays from the ancient greeks and the Bible. But, by re-familirizing the people with them in such a modern and crafty way, he was a genius.
Calvin is the same way. He leads the Church by the hand back to the truths of the bible Augustine formalized long before.
I am simply saying the concept of "Limited Atonement" was around before Calvin, and we should not credit the idea to him.
Augustine and the Reformation
Rather than say that Calvin 'stole' his ideas from Augustine, I think it is better to say that Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and the other main reformers were leading a revival of Augustinian ideas. Remember that Luther was an Augustinian monk.
The irony is that Augustine was a highly revered 'Doctor of the Church' for over a millennium and then had his ideas anathematized by the Council of Trent.
Rather than say that Calvin 'stole' his ideas from Augustine, I think it is better to say that Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and the other main reformers were leading a revival of Augustinian ideas. Remember that Luther was an Augustinian monk.
The irony is that Augustine was a highly revered 'Doctor of the Church' for over a millennium and then had his ideas anathematized by the Council of Trent.
[quote:7e25dde4a6]
I think it is better to say that Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and the other main reformers were leading a revival of Augustinian ideas.
[/quote:7e25dde4a6]
Sure, if it makes you feel better about the Reformation.
My post was not intended to be the abreaction everyone is assuming.
I think it is better to say that Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and the other main reformers were leading a revival of Augustinian ideas.
[/quote:7e25dde4a6]
Sure, if it makes you feel better about the Reformation.
My post was not intended to be the abreaction everyone is assuming.
What I found interesting was when I read the Institutes, and read Calvin's quotes of Augistne, the depth of profundity between the two men were amazing. Without question, Calvin was the greater theologian (considering a breadth of topics). But it may be argued that no living human being after the apostolic age could match Augustine in profundity.
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