Children's Church during Worship Service...

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I don't think we will ever reach the 99.999999% of the population, simply because they a) don't want to be reached b) will always find SOMETHING to complain about.

I have no problem with a place for parents to go with children. I just have a problem with parents dropping off children (that most times want to be with mom and dad). I strongly believe that worship is for everyone. That the attitude of "that kid shouldn't be in here" is detrimental to families and families attending as well. Instead we should be encouraging families that grew up as latch key kids to become stronger. Worshipping together is one way of doing that.

There is also a growing percentage of families that WANT a church where the children are welcome in service and not made to feel like outcasts because they (the children) aren't running with the "youth group" etc. Some of these families are treated ill and strange.
 
I am more concerned that more people hear the Word preached, including mothers, than I am a one year old sitting in worship.

:ditto:

As ministers we have seen the distraction that little children can cause from time to time from a different point of view. Literally. Without meaning any disrespect unless you've been behind the pulpit trying to preach/teach when a child is pitching a fit it's very difficult to comprehend what Fred is trying to say here. He's right.

Not that I am discounting family worship, but that comes in time with more training and understanding at home.
 
I am more concerned that more people hear the Word preached, including mothers, than I am a one year old sitting in worship. You obviously have the reverse priority.

This whole attitude (that a few of you agree with) is what is truely sad and disheartening. It is the reason that children grow up and leave the church. Because THEY don't matter. All the programs, nurseries, camps, etc won't keep them. The preaching of the Word is the one thing that will...but you would deny that to someone due to age.:um:
 
This whole attitude (that a few of you agree with) is what is truely sad and disheartening. It is the reason that children grow up and leave the church. Because THEY don't matter. All the programs, nurseries, camps, etc won't keep them. The preaching of the Word is the one thing that will...but you would deny that to someone due to age.:um:

I disagree. The main reason why kids leave churches is not because they don't matter. It's because parents expect the churches to Christianize their kids without doing their part at home. The preaching of the Word is to be heard and practiced at home. Then it is to be watered in the church. If a child is denied the Word because they go to Children's Church and/or the nursery then the parents aren't doing their part at home. That's the real problem.
 
This whole attitude (that a few of you agree with) is what is truely sad and disheartening. It is the reason that children grow up and leave the church. Because THEY don't matter. All the programs, nurseries, camps, etc won't keep them. The preaching of the Word is the one thing that will...but you would deny that to someone due to age.:um:

No, sometimes children get they idea they don't matter because they're sitting in a worship service where they don't understand the sermon and have little idea what's going on. Why should they be getting the (mistaken) idea that worship is boring and irrelevant, when they could be in a different place during the worship service getting the Word of God pitched to their level? This would do a 3, 4, 5, or 6 year old a lot more good than sitting wiggling with boredom in a worship service pitched to adults.

I think a separate children's service is an excellent idea.
 
Mr. Zuelch, I don't buy the "pitch to the kids level" due to your previous attitude that "kids are brats" (no, you didn't say it...you simply believe that children ought to be separated at all costs in case they should disrupt your precious atmosphere). I feel sorry for the family that you posted about here. They should have been shown some care for. Instead you criticized them and turn up your nose...they were disturbing YOUR service. There are things I see occasionally, but I think instead "what can I do to make it easier". I've seen families assist in watching other's children IN service...other's offer to stand in back with a babe for a bit...parents though having struggled with a child, be treated kindly and warmly with understanding and maybe an idea thrown in here or there. If you were distracted, sir, then perhaps your own thoughts are easily wandered. Reminds me of the mennonite church where it was easy to sit and count the pleats on the back of the kapps and the gathers in the sleeves...who got up with whom in service and who had to drag their child to the back. The issues weren't the gathers nor the pleats...nor the removal of a child. The issue was my own mind and it's tendency towards distraction. (Richard Steele has an excellent book A Remedy for Wandering Thoughts in Worship. The child's cry is a temporary distraction just as the fingerprints on my windows are there for only a time. I still wouldn't trade in all the reasons those fingerprints are there just to have my windows consistantly clean.


I was a child that was NOT discipled through the week, was stuffed on a bus...in a church where all children had to sit in with the REST OF THE CHURCH for worship. THAT is what I remember most. The rest of so simplified that even as a child I knew the difference between having a good ole time (the bus ride), being told a story (aka Sunday School), and WORSHIPPING MY GOD (worship service with the entirety of the church).

If I had been denied that as a child, I would never have gotten back on that bus. In fact, at ten years old, I had taken my 5yr brother and walked across town to a church. Due to the treatment of me 'as a child' in that church, we walked out and I told our parents that we were not going back.

On the pitch to their level thing...children LOVE being included with adults. Sure there are times that it's "no fun" or they may not understand fully at a young age (you can't judge when understanding occurs). But they understand the atmosphere, community, and they quickly pick up on what it is to worship the Lord.
 
This whole attitude (that a few of you agree with) is what is truely sad and disheartening. It is the reason that children grow up and leave the church. Because THEY don't matter. All the programs, nurseries, camps, etc won't keep them. The preaching of the Word is the one thing that will...but you would deny that to someone due to age.:um:

Colleen,

To say that children leave the church because they can be in the nursery until age 3 is completely ridiculous. It actually borders on the absurd. We are not talking about telling 4th graders that they must be shunted off, or even kindergarten children. I am saying that having a nursery for the youngest children, who get very little to nothing out of a worship service, especially for the incredible majority of people who cannot even contemplate having their 1-2 year old sit still with them for a 30-50 minute sermon is a common sense way to have opportunities to minister to the community.

Failure to be even the tiniest bit flexible on such issues is why the vast majority of reformed churches have never had an actual "unchurched" convert. To me, the fervor with which such an issue is pressed is further evidence that our churches do not live in the real world, but rather a tiny reformed (insert 10 more distinctives as adjectives here) Christian ghetto.
 
Fred, the issue is that I see the exact same excuses being made to have 9 and 10 yrs sent to "Children's Church" in many places. And it's gone so far nowadays, that there are churches where there is not only a youth pastor but a youth building...not for sunday school classes, but for their own church! For me, it is a) an initial attitude towards children and the family and b) a snowball issue.

I have no problem with a cry room, where a parent can go with their child and can still hear the sermon. I used to be a nanny, I grew up like many kids in America grew up during the last half of the cold war. I hate the "drop off service" mentality. I've seen burn out of the "child workers" in churches. And attitudes snowball from there on who should and who shouldn't have to help in those places. Older women stating "I did my time!" Younger women thinking they have a "right" to have someone there to dump their child off with (I've even dealt with PWs who dropped off their children with bronchialitis just because they had to "practice with their singing quartet"), parents in their 30s and 40s exhausted from the schedule of working and overseeing the children of the church and not being fed themselves.
 
Fred, the issue is that I see the exact same excuses being made to have 9 and 10 yrs sent to "Children's Church" in many places. And it's gone so far nowadays, that there are churches where there is not only a youth pastor but a youth building...not for sunday school classes, but for their own church! For me, it is a) an initial attitude towards children and the family and b) a snowball issue.

So? I see the same reasons used by Reformed churches for catechising by Jehovah's Witnesses. Does that make catechism wrong? (By the way, what you just gave was a logical fallacy).

You have just provided me with yet another problem in reformed churches - "I'm so afraid that X will happen (and that is really bad), so I can't let Y be done (even though I can't properly object to Y)"

I could just as easily, (nay, easier) argue that the current "family" attitude in reformed churches is snowballing toward actual heresy - paedocommunion, fathers thinking that they must serve their families the elements in the Lord's Supper instead of the elders, denigration of Church authority....

Given the choice between the troubles caused by infant nurseries and paedocommunion, I don't even have to think about which is worse - which touches on justification by faith.

As for fighting about serving - there is a larger issue there, a heart issue. Serving the body of Christ, and making opportunities for visitors is what makes a church a church. Visitors are not going to use a cry room. And even if they did, do we really want mom to miss the sermon? It may be the only one where she truly hears the gospel. Nurseries are also among the only places where young people (teens) can serve and get a part of being a part of the larger body, of sacrificing.
 
I am not sure what is being argued here. Both sides agree that it would be nice to have a place to take disruptive children out of the service. But both sides (I think) also agree that preaching is important to the salvation of all, including children. Perhaps Colleen is arguing that it is the parents' responsibility to decide when children are disruptive, and the others argue that it is the church's responsibility to decide when children are disruptive.

Here's my story. Our church does not have a place to take disruptive children. Why not? Because our building does not have that kind of room. The only place a crying child can be taken is outside, (and we live in the mountains) or in the kitchen (where the crying would be even louder). But the Lord is faithful. He works through our church in spite of us. We do have visitors that come back. We do have adults who join, profess and are baptized. We have all the marking of a church with a good lampstand in spite of the fact that all children must worship with us. Take that for what it's worth.

Also, as a public school teacher of 18 years it is my unscientific observation that children learn faster than adults. We have children's church but we have it on a weekday night. Those children retain more on those nights than most of the adults in the church do on Sundays. After a year or so of being in our weekday children's church, the children have more knowledge than some of the adults. I really do see the children understanding at least some of what I preach about. (Which is more than I can say about some of the adults)

Anyway, I think unity is important. If we get a huge influx of visiting disruptive children then we may have to change what we do, or where we worship.
 
UNCLE! (on the logic)



Cry rooms: a person can still hear a sermon...others just cannot hear a crying child. There is usually a one way window to the sanctuary and speakers. Many churches have these and they are used.

If nurseries are the only place a teen can serve, then there is a problem. There are many things teens can do other than babysit. Now, getting them to do it because much of it will take place on other days is another thing. That takes real sacrifice.

Also, mothers hearing the word, but teens in the nursery with the three year olds? You've just done the exchange again. If for no other reason to have the young in service, perhaps it should be so NO ONE is left out of service? Generally tots can be pacified in several ways that are not distracting nor require removal. Usually there is plenty of room in the back for standing and rocking a child. I even know of a church that has gliders in the very back for mothers with young children that need rocking to sleep or nursing, or pregnant mothers that simply can't sit on a normal pew and chair (I can't tell you how many times I've had to get up because of my back and walk the foyer...thank you Lord for sound systems!). Yet, I'm not relegated to a pregnant ladies sermon on a ladies level...nor are elderly relegated to a geriatric service, elderly can be just as distracting as a fussing babe at times.

The problem is that many churches rely on "appearances and attraction" rather than "what can we do to keep everyone together to hear the Word preached regardless of ability". Children are seen as a problem to be dealt with...not a part of the church that needs to be taken into consideration.

Just some ideas...
 
In one Church I attended, we had a wireless speaker where we could pipe the sermon into the nursery so the workers could listen to the sermon while watching the children.

Ironically, the problem is not always whether or not some have opportunity to listen but whether they actually do listen. What would typically happen is that a mother would bring her children and a conversation would ensue...
 
I want to clarify the "attraction" comment. The attraction of "we have a nusery" only validifies the "rights of the mother" and other attitudes of moms can't possibly handle having their children with them all the time. "Church should be my one break to feed ME!" I understand the frustration...I also understand that it isn't a scriptural mindset. I just don't believe that churches should feed that mindset.
 
Failure to be even the tiniest bit flexible on such issues is why the vast majority of reformed churches have never had an actual "unchurched" convert. To me, the fervor with which such an issue is pressed is further evidence that our churches do not live in the real world, but rather a tiny reformed (insert 10 more distinctives as adjectives here) Christian ghetto.


I said in my earlier post that I have no issue with the church being "flexible" on this issue (having a nursery and toddler room situation for those who don't prefer or cannot have their young ones with them).

The attitude that parents who WANT to keep their children with them (and respect those in the service when the child needs to be removed) are to be thought of as inflexible and then somehow responsible for the reformed churches being christian ghettos is, put calmly, insensitive and unjust.
 
Personally I have no problem with kids attending the service but from my perspective, the problem are the parents who put up with un-disciplined children. Granted, 1 and 2 year old kids can be a handful, but I have seen it done. Sit some of these kids in front of a computer screen or TV and they won't move for hours. Bring them to Church and its like there is a cattle prod under the seat. Then try to talk to those parents about their children in the most loving way you can and in most cases you get "you don't love my covenant child!". Its almost a no win situation. And I'm not even talking about the parents that Fred is talking about, where the father has the strange idea that they are Prophet, Priest and King and can administer the sacraments and don't want their child going to Sunday School because they can't control the ciriculum. So as long as we have parents who don't know how, or flat out don't want to control their children, churches will continue to have nurseries and childrens church.
 
I'm very good at discerning character and let me tell you...

If a child is not sitting up still and straight and eye's front, then he has a discipline problem and the parents need to either lock him in the nursery or give him a good thrashing and then lock him in the nursery. After all, that's what he nursery is for - keeping the noisy little brats out of my sanctuary.

Same goes for people with coughs, and people who accidentally forget to turn off their cell-phones (those people should be drawn and quartered!). And I wish that guy with the creaky knees would find somewhere else to sit. Not to mention the lady who keeps opening cellophane wrapped candies. And let's not forget the guy who takes notes. That scribbling is enough to drive someone batty! Go to school if you want to take notes, this is church! And then there are people talking all the way up to the point the pastor first clears his throat. Can't someone see I'm trying to meditate here?!? OH! I could go on and on with how stupid people act in church! Such offensive behavior is simply outrageous!





P.S. Do I need to add a note that says this is a parody of complaining self-righteous Christians?
 
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I said in my earlier post that I have no issue with the church being "flexible" on this issue (having a nursery and toddler room situation for those who don't prefer or cannot have their young ones with them).

The attitude that parents who WANT to keep their children with them (and respect those in the service when the child needs to be removed) are to be thought of as inflexible and then somehow responsible for the reformed churches being christian ghettos is, put calmly, insensitive and unjust.

Then you must re-read my post. I never said that children should not be kept in a worship service. I was commenting on the several posts that anathematized nurseries, and reflecting on my (significant) experience with such churches where all who would nave their children from birth on up sitting in neat quiet rows as being sub-Christian and unworthy of church.

A cry room is not a nursery. A hall is not a nursery. To the average American, and frankly, typical Christian, to imply, "well if your children aren't sufficiently spiritual like my children to sit quietly, you can stand with them in an open hall for an hour" is unbelievably uninviting, and places a non-gospel item (visible and physical family unity) above the gospel. That, my friend, is the definition of a Christian ghetto.
 
Let me clarify again...

You apparently are assuming that parents who believe children should be with them must have a superior attitude or that our children are of the few that behave.

Sorry, no cigar this time. We've had our moments of child removal. I've had more than my share of times (and still to this day) of hall walking to put a child to sleep or stand in the back to keep them quiet (think 9mos old here and discovered she has a voice). The church is definately not uninviting...we've had ppl visit and ppl stay. Nurseries don't make a place inviting or uninviting for I know many places that have nurseries that have been the most uninviting places to be.

Fred, you also apparently did not read my post further up where I criticize another for their imidiate thoughts to a distraught child. Where the parents are NOT to be looked down upon, but rather are to be encouraged. There is no, "you're not as spiritual if your child doesn't sit still" attitude. That is your own assumption. Perhaps there are those like that, there are also those that flat out just don't want to have to deal with children and dump them every chance they get. Neither person is here nor there.

The point is what should the church be doing? Worshipping together. Should they be feeding the "age gap syndrome"? No. Do you think the early church or the church of the Reformation would think we were wise in our age segregation of churches and mommy-respites? I doubt it. Are we to cater to those that come in and entice them through various means to stay or are we to simply follow principle, keep a generous spirit, and let God do the work? Lack of nurseries never prevented mothers throughout history from hearing the gospel...why do we think that the nursery is the breaking edge? Because society tells us so. Natural revelation tells us that children belong with their parents and family. The church should encourage this. And curious, how is a cry room different from a nursery? The child stays with the parent rather than passed off to another adult or teenager, the parent and child can still see and hear the sermon, and there is usually a crib or two for a little one to nap in if need be.

If you are so willing to so through all the stocking, scheduling, removal of various ppl from the service to attend the nursery, etc...would it hurt for you to make possible for those mothers that would like to stay in the service with their children feel welcome (even as a pregnant woman, I spent much time in the nursery because my movement was considered a "distraction")? Do we just feed the modern american mindset or do we encourage a Christian view of children, families, and most importantly...their role in worship?
 
I'm very good at discerning character and let me tell you...

If a child is not sitting up still and straight and eye's front, then he has a discipline problem and the parents need to either lock him in the nursery or give him a good thrashing and then lock him in the nursery. After all, that's what he nursery is for - keeping the noisy little brats out of my sanctuary.

Same goes for people with coughs, and people who accidentally forget to turn off their cell-phones (those people should be drawn and quartered!). And I wish that guy with the creaky knees would find somewhere else to sit. Not to mention the lady who keeps opening cellophane wrapped candies. And let's not forget the guy who takes notes. That scribbling is enough to drive someone batty! Go to school if you want to take notes, this is church! And then there are people talking all the way up to the point the pastor first clears his throat. Can't someone see I'm trying to meditate here?!? OH! I could go on and on with how stupid people act in church! Such offensive behavior is simply outrageous!

:rofl: It is funny because it is true. Where do you draw the line with the distractions? Anyone ever been to Keith Jarret concert? He will stop the music and glare at the audience if someone so much as coughs!
 
... I spent much time in the nursery because my movement was considered a "distraction") ...

How funny and sad! I must be a real problem for some in church because I have trouble sitting still. I'm always shifting and adjusting. Never could sit still through a whole service and when I try it makes it difficult to pay attention. Maybe I need to go to the nursery too. :D
 
To the average American, and frankly, typical Christian, to imply, "well if your children aren't sufficiently spiritual like my children to sit quietly, you can stand with them in an open hall for an hour" is unbelievably uninviting, and places a non-gospel item (visible and physical family unity) above the gospel. That, my friend, is the definition of a Christian ghetto.

I'm sorry to hear that you've had these experiences. I have not, as I've already shared a bit of my background on it. I can assure you that not all reformed churches who don't staff a nursery/toddler room have self righteous christians who imply what you shared in the quote above.
 
I'm very good at discerning character and let me tell you...

If a child is not sitting up still and straight and eye's front, then he has a discipline problem and the parents need to either lock him in the nursery or give him a good thrashing and then lock him in the nursery. After all, that's what he nursery is for - keeping the noisy little brats out of my sanctuary.

Same goes for people with coughs, and people who accidentally forget to turn off their cell-phones (those people should be drawn and quartered!). And I wish that guy with the creaky knees would find somewhere else to sit. Not to mention the lady who keeps opening cellophane wrapped candies. And let's not forget the guy who takes notes. That scribbling is enough to drive someone batty! Go to school if you want to take notes, this is church! And then there are people talking all the way up to the point the pastor first clears his throat. Can't someone see I'm trying to meditate here?!? OH! I could go on and on with how stupid people act in church! Such offensive behavior is simply outrageous!





P.S. Do I need to add a note that says this is a parody of complaining self-righteous Christians?

I know you meant this as a parody but unfortunately this hyperboly is a reflection of the type of attitude many parents take when an officer of the church makes an attempt to talk about this issue (I'm sure you or anyone else on this board would not take on this type of attitude). I would rather walk into a mine field blindfolded than talk to a parent about the way their children act in a worship service. As I said before, its a no win situation.
 
Fred, I agree that that particular is uninviting...equally so as "no brats allowed" glares some ppl can give.

I just wish ppl were more accepting of children, even their own, as Christ was..."Suffer not the little children to come unto me"
 
I would rather walk into a mine field blindfolded than talk to a parent about the way their children act in a worship service.

This is something that all of us could agree on for sure. Nothing will send a family out the door faster than an elder even bringing up the possibility that a child may be a distraction. :p
 
I just wish ppl were more accepting of children, even their own, as Christ was..."Suffer not the little children to come unto me"

Yes, but Christ invited children to come to Him when He was out in the open somewhere, where He could speak to them and be with them. I don't think He was inviting them to sit still on a wooden pew for an hour.
 
Richard, I believe that was our friendly neighborhood Marine....

In response to your suggestion to name his future daughter/son: Richardina Zuelchiana L. or Richard Zuelch L..

And I think it was well-deserved :D
 
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Richard, I believe that was our friendly neighborhood Marine....

In response to your suggestion to name his future daughter/son: Richardina Zuelchiana L. or Richard Zuelch L..

And I think it was well-deserved :D

Oy. Some people just don't recognize classy names when they see them!:lol:
 
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