Christian Liberty

[RamistThomist]

Meanwhile, the potheads at my local taco bell struggle to very slowly put the meat and the lettuce in the taco shell before sending it out.

I shouldn't have laughed at that and I apologize.

 

[davejonescue]

Didn't you just say you were homeless when you used drugs? Doesn't your life story confirm everything I'm saying? When you used, you were living on the streets, and when you stopped, you got a job and became a productive member of society.

I rest my case.

There is a difference between being addicted to drugs, and someone who smokes weed responsibly every day. Yes, when I was homeless, I did use, but I was homeless from the ages of 14-26. I became homeless fleeing physical abuse from my parents, and was on the streets before I was old enough to work. And I didn't just smoke weed. I did what ever drug was in front of me. In fact, I would say meth did more damage in my life than weed ever did. Which isn't really odd since when I was on the streets, San Diego was the meth capital of the United States. There is much more to my recovering from a childhood of trauma, and literally no parental oversight than stopping smoking weed. I started progressing when I became a Christian, part of being a Christian is sobriety, true, but that is not the entirety of sanctification. I can attribute the conviction to obey the command to work as the usher of my success, just as much (if not more) as I could potentially attribute it to the command to be sober. This still doesn't change the point. Daily pot smokers can be found in all avenues of employment in the United States; from the top to the bottom. And projecting your disdain of it, and stating your opinions as facts, doesnt change that.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Daily pot smokers can be found in all avenues of employment in the United States; from the top to the bottom. And projecting your disdain of it, and stating your opinions as facts, doesnt change that.

No, they can't be found in "all avenues of employment," because HR drug tests in many fields. You literally cannot get a job as a doctor, nurse, teacher, engineer, soldier, sailor, bureaucrat, etc with a positive drug screen. And lawyers generally don't risk it, because a conviction for possession will get them disbarred.

And yes, I do disdain it. We should all disdain something that hinders many young people in living up to their god-given potential, and that turns many fathers into unattentive, disinterested addicts. As a teacher I don't see a lot of overlap between parents that show up to pick up their kids reeking of weed, and parents that come to parent-teacher conferences, help their kids with their homework, and take them to church. I'm not going to apologize for disdaining something so manifestly evil.

 

[davejonescue]

No, they can't be found in "all avenues of employment," because HR drug tests in many fields. You literally cannot get a job as a doctor, nurse, teacher, engineer, soldier, sailor, bureaucrat, etc with a positive drug screen. And lawyers generally don't risk it, because a conviction for possession will get them disbarred.

And yes, I do disdain it. We should all disdain something that hinders many young people in living up to their god-given potential, and that turns many fathers into unattentive, disinterested addicts. As a teacher I don't see a lot of overlap between parents that show up to pick up their kids reeking of weed, and parents that come to parent-teacher conferences, help their kids with their homework, and take them to church. I'm not going to apologize for disdaining something so manifestly evil.

You do know passing a drug test is as easy as a $10 bottle of Ready Clean? And if not that you can strap someone else's pee to your thigh? Its not rocket science. You yourself said you knew a teacher that was a stoner. And, this will ultimately change as states legalize it, and it becomes federally legal; just like we saw with same-sex marriage which initially began with sporadic states then went full-country. And I do not really have a problem with you disdaining it. I disdain it as well. What I have a problem with is that you seem to be lifting up alcohol abuse as somehow better, when time and time again, weed has been proven to be way less destructive than alcohol. Many more deadbeat/abusive dads and disinterested parents/dysfunctional families, come from drunken homes than from parents that smoke weed. My point is that responsible weed use exists, just like responsible drinking exists, and ignoring that to project falsities is disingenuous.

 

[Charles Johnson]

What i have a problem with is that you seem to be lifting up alcohol abuse as somehow better

I don't think alcoholism is better at all. I think they're both terrible.

My point is that responsible weed use exists

There is no such thing as "responsible sinning."

 

[MW]

הָלַךְ, עָמַד,יָשָׁב, the three relevant words from Psalm 1. I can't explain why, but my Hebrew professor informed my class he fails to see any exegetical support for the idea of "progression of sin," perhaps given the use of those words elsewhere, and the context of the Psalm, and the actual use of Hebrew parallelism. But I don't really know why. I just remember that my previous assumption about Psalm 1 was mistaken. Who knows?

Not that it really matters. True statement anyway, about sin progressing.

On a literal exegetical level I tend to agree with him; but Scripture is profitable in many dimensions on a practical level, and this moves beyond strict exegesis. So I accept the homiletical observation in terms of its use and application.

 

[davejonescue]

I don't think alcoholism is better at all. I think they're both terrible.


There is no such thing as "responsible sinning."

Yes there is, and you know there is. When we are talking about extra-biblical or secular effects of something, we don't change it up to misconstrue what we are talking about. We were talking about the societal effects of weed usage. Which are equally, if not less severe than alcohol usage. A case can be made that the only reason weed is a sin is because it cannot be currently metered to not automatically cause intoxication; as intoxication is the prohibition, not the substance. But even that is changing as the weed industry are creating ways to isolate and administer THC in comparable ways to alcohol. So that, one may have a couple THC beverages, and feel "good" without feeling drunk or high, just like a couple beers or a couple glasses of wine. This is where we need to step back and ask ourselves are we clinging to tradition, or, are we understanding that times are changing and that technology and scientific advancement may be making way for something that was once impossible, to now be probable? The fact is, weed is less harmful for you than alcohol. Almost every study concludes this. But you are correct, it is a sin until, and if ever, it can be consumed without almost instantaneous intoxication. With that being said, it will be a hard case to say we can come to a responsible gladness of heart by wine, but not THC. There is a difference between that and being drunk/high too.

Think about tobacco. Prior to its coming to Europe, it was almost entirely used for Pagan worship. And most likely would have been included in the pharmekeia clause of prohibition. But nobody pays attention to that because it really isn't mind altering, and most people that use it now are not doing so to gods. Why wouldnt this same attitude be taken with THC if it can be ingested without automatic intoxication?

 

[Taahanni]

There is no such thing as "responsible sinning."

You do not think there is any justification from a Christian standpoint of marijuana use?

 

[MarrowMan]

Didn't you just say you were homeless when you used drugs? Doesn't your life story confirm everything I'm saying? When you used, you were living on the streets, and when you stopped, you got a job and became a productive member of society.

I rest my case.

You shouldn't rest your case for the following:

a. We don't know the drug combo Dave was using so pinning it all on Marijuana usage isn't available at the moment.

b. My pre-conversion world was filled with high functioning successful pot smokers. That isn't an advertisement for smoking pot since high functioning success isn't the proper rubric, but you can smoke pot and be fine in those terms.

 

[Charles Johnson]

You do not think there is any justification from a Christian standpoint of marijuana use?

If there is, then it would not be sinning.

Certain cannabis compounds have legitimate medical uses, like CBD, which prevents seizures. It is able to be ingested without THC.

I do not know if THC in particular has any lawful pharmaceutical uses. If it does, it certainly accounts for a very small percentage of use. Most smokers are just trying to get high.

If I were a pastor I would be more sympathetic to someone in chronic pain using THC to avoid opiates and manage their suffering than I would be to someone using it to get high after work because they can't think of any better use of their time.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Steve, are you saying that marijuana use is always demonic and that there is no good use for ingesting this plant in any way or form? I do not deny the link between hallucinogens/psychedelics and demonic activity, but I would like to see a more nuanced view that deals with the fact that these things are part of the created order. Or are you saying that plants that were once created good can become so corrupted by the effects of sin that they are now of no good use until the time of general redemption (thinking of Romans 8.19-22)?

Hello Andrew — responding to your questions: I was having a conversation with someone recently on this subject and they said, “But in Genesis 1:29 God said, ‘Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree…’, so this is God’s gift to us, and perfectly righteous.”

And I responded, “The answer to which would be, 'Indeed He gave us all herbs and plants, but as the rest of the verse says, 'to you it shall be for food' even as in the next verse He gave the same for the animals of the earth to eat; not for later humans to smoke or ingest to change their consciousness and enter the spirit world." I continued, "I see you do not deny some substances are 'able to facilitate supernatural experiences and contacts' – which is a brief definition of sorcery.

“Even so, after the Fall it is clear we do not eat all the plants, for some, as Water Hemlock, Oleander, and Deadly Nightshade are lethally poisonous to eat. We are to discern between plants that are good and ill for us.

“Those who try to use Genesis 1:29 to support using marijuana, psilocybin mushrooms and mescaline etc are indulging in eisegesis (adding to the text what is not there) But, as it is written, those who minister before the LORD 'shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean’ ” (Ezek 44:23).

Andrew, it comes down to whether or not smoking grass – or using any of the other psychedelic / entheogen agents – is per se sorcery, i.e., invariably facilitates entrance into the spirit world and contact with the spirits therein.

Besides the testimony of the commentators and Greek scholars who exegete the Scripture, showing that these drugs encourage the presence of spirits in trance states and induce magic spells—that is, awareness in the spirit realm, and of the powers therein—pagan spiritualists and shamans (occult practitioners) also know well what these drugs do. For example, among the Hindus in India, Nepal, Sikkim, and Tibet, the ability to send users of marijuana and hashish into the realm of spirits is well known. In Benares, the main Indian city of Shiva worship, cannabis is such an important part of the religion it is sold in government-run shops. Marijuana helps its users make contact with the spirit entities—demons—of its pagan religion. It also has a long history of use in ancient China, Japan, Iran, ancient Europe, and in Africa—mostly for shamanistic purposes—that is, for facilitating communion with spirits or the heightened spiritual states these spirits can produce.

The names of the drugs change from culture to culture, and over time, but their properties remain the same: enabling communion with spirits, and affording heightened states of consciousness through demonic influence, even if the spirits remain concealed. They are recognized by these properties, or characteristics. Those folks who use the drug marijuana recreationally—to enhance the senses of taste, smell, touch, sight, and hearing—may deny any occult experience, yet they still have been transported into the realm of spiritual power and influence, and the spirits now have access into their minds and spirits (Eph. 6:12, 16), even though they usually keep their presence secret. They can project thoughts and images, or sounds, feelings, and words, into the perception of the users, who do not know their source, and may think they are merely their own. This is dangerous, and we see the general culture of today filled with demonic content of murderous violence, perversion, hatred of authority, and especially the authority of the Bible and the preaching of the Gospel. And the culture is mostly unaware that the barrier between the demonic world and the collective human consciousness has been done away with through the wide practice of once long-prohibited sorcery from the counter-culture sixties and on, now made commonplace. Here is not the place to expound on this, but there are eschatological aspects to sorcery (cf. Rev. 18:23, and elsewhere). We who follow Jesus Christ should not also go the dangerous ways of the world!

If one is completely unfamiliar with such things it should be sufficient that the LORD has raised up witnesses through the exposition of His word, and the accompanying testimony of those He has rescued from participation in these activities, concerning which pharmakeia drugs there are three classes of witnesses:

1) The testimony of Scripture: these drugs exist, are used in sorcerous activities, and are condemned by God on pain of spiritual death.
2) The testimony of exegetes, linguists, and commentators: who define what sorcery and witchcraft are by indicating the use of drugs to enter demonic realms, and the practicing of their crafts there by said users.
3) The testimony of those who have experienced these peculiar drugs, and they are of two classes: a) godly men and women who have been delivered from the use and effects of them; and b) ungodly men and women who continue in use of them and clearly tell of their properties, their affect within their beings, and their efficacy in facilitating entrance into the spirit world.

The quality of this legal testimony in the mouths of two or three witnesses (Deut 19:15; Matt 18:16; 2 Cor 13:1) ought to be sufficient for those skeptical to consider, and to heed.

The drugs mentioned are the psychedelics (mind expanders), euphemistically called entheogens (God manifesting within), such as LSD (a twentieth-century discovery), mescaline, marijuana and its derivative hashish, peyote, and others with like properties. It is necessary to ground this matter in an understanding of Biblical terms. Pharmakeia (φαρμακεία) and its cognates are found five times in the New Testament, and more in the Greek Old Testament. In Revelation it means “drugs that induce magic spells” (Simon J. Kistemaker, New Testament Commentary: Revelation, p. 302). It belongs to “a magical tradition of herbs gathered and prepared for spells, and also for encouraging the presence of spirits at magical ceremonies” [emphasis added] (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol 2, p. 558). And from The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, by Spiros Zodhiates, we have: “Pharmakeia means the occult, sorcery, witchcraft, illicit pharmaceuticals, trance, magical incantation with drugs” (pp. 1437, 1438).

In extra-Biblical literature pharmakon—drugs—may refer to legitimate medicine, poison, or magic potion, but in Revelation its (and its cognates) only meaning pertains to magic potion, including the deception resulting from these.

The secular culture is increasingly approving both the recreational and medicinal uses of marijuana in various forms of greatly enhanced potency, but the Christian church must beware of allowing it for either of these uses.

As for marijuana's "medicinal benefits": it is well known that it can alleviate pain, through a sense of detachment from the physical body.

Let me share concerning a New York State Supreme Court Justice, the late Gustin L. Reichbach. He made headlines, while a sitting judge, that is, still practicing in the Court, by writing an op-ed piece for The New York Times in which he acknowledged smoking marijuana to ease the side effects of his treatment for stage 3 pancreatic cancer. Without it he couldn’t eat or sleep. He wrote this in May of 2012, and died 60 days later. His plea for the legalization of its medicinal use was both courageous and heart-wrenching. To a non-Christian it might seem almost a no-brainer.

However, I am a Christian—and I am speaking to those of you who also are—and must spiritually consider, what is the cost of doing as the judge did? I do not believe Justice Reichbach was a disciple of Christ, but for a disciple what would the issue be? It would be opening the heart and mind to demonic activity. Let me put myself in his place: without some grass—inhaled or ingested—I cannot eat (my appetite has failed), and cannot sleep, both of which I need to sustain my life. But with it, I could do both. The pain of the cancer—if I tried to steer clear of the opioids which might make me groggy—could also be diminished by smoking the grass. Would it be worth it to me? To the world this dilemma would be false, delusional, and inhumane! To the spiritual man or woman it is vital and actual: would I allow my communion with Christ and communion with other disciples to be open to influence or infiltration by demonic beings? Just for the ability to eat something, or sleep, or to relieve pain? No, God giving me strength I would retain my integrity of being before Him and my friends. I would refuse to smoke or ingest the “medicinal” marijuana for the sake of keeping my spiritual health and integrity. Especially if I were in terrible pain with advanced, terminal cancer, I would not use marijuana for relief. I would rather have morphine or the like. Would anyone in their right mind, when on the very brink of death and entrance into eternity, open their hearts and minds to demonic influence? That would be sheer destructive madness!

The only exception of marijuana use for healing—in which its medical benefits are legitimate and actually good—pertain to medicinal marijuana with THC in lotions and creams that do not enter the blood-stream or get one high, or to the non-psychoactive (i.e., does not get one high) ingredient CBD, which is used for preventing seizures in children and other legitimate uses, such as pain relief. Any use of marijuana that gets one high is participating in sorcery.

The "high" — the elevated — awareness is precisely our consciousness having been lifted by demonic influence into the spirit realm. The "contact high" whereby it affects others is effected by the psychic power one has in this "high" state.

As someone mentioned above, smoking grass is now — in the U.S. — more widely used than alcohol by the general population. The world, and its spirit has also entered the church. Now being mostly legal there is no longer that deterrent. What more can I say? Probably a lot, but enough for now!

 

[Dkshotwell]

No, they can't be found in "all avenues of employment," because HR drug tests in many fields. You literally cannot get a job as a doctor, nurse, teacher, engineer, soldier, sailor, bureaucrat, etc with a positive drug screen. And lawyers generally don't risk it, because a conviction for possession will get them disbarred.

And yes, I do disdain it. We should all disdain something that hinders many young people in living up to their god-given potential, and that turns many fathers into unattentive, disinterested addicts. As a teacher I don't see a lot of overlap between parents that show up to pick up their kids reeking of weed, and parents that come to parent-teacher conferences, help their kids with their homework, and take them to church. I'm not going to apologize for disdaining something so manifestly evil.

I don't know the extent of your employment history, but to say that " No they can't be found in all avenues of employment " because of HR rules, doesn't really stand up to real world experience. I enlisted in the USN in 1980, it was there in the recruit training center, and it was there in the fleet, even among at least one officer I knew. It was there when I worked heavy equipment in a warehouse and when I joined the USPS. All of these fields are HR top heavy just like with cops, nurses, surgeons, bureaucrats and tech moguls. I'm not advocating anything and I respect your view, but it was a bit naive to say that.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Thanks for the response, Steve. I know you are passionate about this topic, so I hope I am not offending you by further probing of this issue:

Even so, after the Fall it is clear we do not eat all the plants, for some, as Water Hemlock, Oleander, and Deadly Nightshade are lethally poisonous to eat. We are to discern between plants that are good and ill for us.

That is part of my question I don't think you addressed - do you believe these plants were created as such (lethally poisonous) or did they, over time, evolve into such a state? In other words, these plants (including marijuana) were created good, so the question is, were they good and lethal (or in the case of marijuana in your opinion, sorcerous) from the start, or were they good and non-lethal and became lethal (or sorcerous) after sin entered the world and corrupted all of creation? I'm thinking of the reference to "...cursed is the earth for thy sake: in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee..." in Genesis 3. Thorns and thistles had to have been part of the good creation since we confess everything was made in the space of 6 days, but this text seems to indicate that something changed due to sin. As a farmer, I have a profound dislike of burdock (I'm still annoyed at my European friends for introducing it to the Americas!), but when I have a sick calf the leaves and roots are still useful. Whatever you say or claim about these plants, you would seemingly have to also say about the marijuana plant, yes?

it comes down to whether or not smoking grass – or using any of the other psychedelic / entheogen agents – is per se sorcery, i.e., invariably facilitates entrance into the spirit world and contact with the spirits therein.

1) The testimony of Scripture: these drugs exist, are used in sorcerous activities, and are condemned by God on pain of spiritual death.
2) The testimony of exegetes, linguists, and commentators: who define what sorcery and witchcraft are by indicating the use of drugs to enter demonic realms, and the practicing of their crafts there by said users.
3) The testimony of those who have experienced these peculiar drugs, and they are of two classes: a) godly men and women who have been delivered from the use and effects of them; and b) ungodly men and women who continue in use of them and clearly tell of their properties, their affect within their beings, and their efficacy in facilitating entrance into the spirit world.

Just because something is (mis-)used in sorcerous activity does not make it intrinsically and essentially evil. People still sacrifice chickens and goats to enter demonic realm, but that does not make chickens and goats off limits to other lawful uses. God's people once made a golden calf to commemorate false gods, but that does not mean they could not later make and use a bronze serpent at God's command - metal and metallurgy are not intrinsically and essentially evil simply because they were misused for sinful and even demonic purposes.

The only exception of marijuana use for healing—in which its medical benefits are legitimate and actually good—pertain to medicinal marijuana with THC in lotions and creams that do not enter the blood-stream or get one high, or to the non-psychoactive (i.e., does not get one high) ingredient CBD, which is used for preventing seizures in children and other legitimate uses, such as pain relief. Any use of marijuana that gets one high is participating in sorcery.

The "high" — the elevated — awareness is precisely our consciousness having been lifted by demonic influence into the spirit realm. The "contact high" whereby it affects others is effected by the psychic power one has in this "high" state.

Perhaps this is where the dividing line is - but I don't see how your definition of "high" (entering the blood stream) holds up in contrast to lawful medical uses. An opioid, marijuana, or any of their derivatives blocks pain receptors - which I would think is synonymous with "our consciousness having been lifted" - but I would not say that always opens the door to demonic activity. Do you believe one of God's elect opens the door to demonic activity if they use a drug to block pain for a time? I don't - Christ promised "But if I by the finger of God cast out devils, doubtless the kingdom of God is come unto you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, the things that he possesseth, are in peace. But when a stronger than he cometh upon him, and overcometh him: he taketh from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils." (Luke 11:20-22) I believe Christ is keeping my temple, and nothing is stronger - He will not let Satan and his minions to enter, even with a drug in my system blocking consciousness.

I don't use marijuana, nor do I believe its use "recreationally" is morally acceptable, but I don't see how all entrances of its chemical properties into the blood stream can be unequivocally stated to be sorcerous.

 

[davejonescue]

Thanks for the response, Steve. I know you are passionate about this topic, so I hope I am not offending you by further probing of this issue:

That is part of my question I don't think you addressed - do you believe these plants were created as such (lethally poisonous) or did they, over time, evolve into such a state? In other words, these plants (including marijuana) were created good, so the question is, were they good and lethal (or in the case of marijuana in your opinion, sorcerous) from the start, or were they good and non-lethal and became lethal (or sorcerous) after sin entered the world and corrupted all of creation? I'm thinking of the reference to "...cursed is the earth for thy sake: in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee..." in Genesis 3. Thorns and thistles had to have been part of the good creation since we confess everything was made in the space of 6 days, but this text seems to indicate that something changed due to sin. As a farmer, I have a profound dislike of burdock (I'm still annoyed at my European friends for introducing it to the Americas!), but when I have a sick calf the leaves and roots are still useful. Whatever you say or claim about these plants, you would seemingly have to also say about the marijuana plant, yes?



Just because something is (mis-)used in sorcerous activity does not make it intrinsically and essentially evil. People still sacrifice chickens and goats to enter demonic realm, but that does not make chickens and goats off limits to other lawful uses. God's people once made a golden calf to commemorate false gods, but that does not mean they could not later make and use a bronze serpent at God's command - metal and metallurgy are not intrinsically and essentially evil simply because they were misused for sinful and even demonic purposes.


Perhaps this is where the dividing line is - but I don't see how your definition of "high" (entering the blood stream) holds up in contrast to lawful medical uses. An opioid, marijuana, or any of their derivatives blocks pain receptors - which I would think is synonymous with "our consciousness having been lifted" - but I would not say that always opens the door to demonic activity. Do you believe one of God's elect opens the door to demonic activity if they use a drug to block pain for a time? I don't - Christ promised "But if I by the finger of God cast out devils, doubtless the kingdom of God is come unto you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, the things that he possesseth, are in peace. But when a stronger than he cometh upon him, and overcometh him: he taketh from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils." (Luke 11:20-22) I believe Christ is keeping my temple, and nothing is stronger - He will not let Satan and his minions to enter, even with a drug in my system blocking consciousness.

I don't use marijuana, nor do I believe its use "recreationally" is morally acceptable, but I don't see how all entrances of its chemical properties into the blood stream can be unequivocally stated to be sorcerous.

Thank you for touching on that because I think some reaches are being made that the Bible is not giving any relative context on. What I mean is, either a substance is only sorcery in the act of its use for conjuring and/or pagan religious practices; or, the substance itself is entirely prohibited and would be so whether it were used for religious purposes, remedy, or recreation. It seems somewhere along the line we have taken it upon ourselves to allow/disallow to what degree something is tolerated. But when I look at scriptures, I only see substances tied to intoxication and pagan religious ceremonies being prohibited. So that, any substance used in ways that fall into these two categories are prohibited, and ones that do not, like medicine and non-intoxicative recreation are not. For example, being high/drunk is automatically off-limits; but so is taking something like Tobacco, which doesnt make you either, and using it in religious ceremonies as a form of ascension.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Good questions, Andrew (I'm not offended in the least). What with our worship service tomorrow I'll be busy for a while, but I have a question for you also: The sorcery spoken of in Revelation 18:23, bringing horrific judgment on Babylon, and the cognate of which (sorcerer pharmakeus) in Rev 21:8 and 22:15 says these practitioners shall, if remaining unrepentant, shall partake of hell-fire and be denied entrance to the City of God. What is this sorcery, and who are these sorcerers to warrant such extreme judgment — according to Scripture?

I'll respond to you also, Dave, when I am freed up a bit. These are very serious matters, as the sanctity of the church of Christ is involved. It is important such questions be answered from Scripture.

 

[Joshua]

Liberty is bound up in what God says is right. Christian Liberty, and Liberty of Conscience, as well-expressed by our standards is liberty unto obedience for the believer, whereas before -being dead in trespasses and sin, not having the work of the LORD Jesus imputed to him, nor his deliverance from the power of sin, the sting of death, and the evil of afflictions, etc.- a man could only obey his lusts, being shut up to sin and death's captivity. How Christian Liberty devolves from that wonderful subject to whether we may indulge the creature to this kind or intensity is indicative of how much the wrong emPHOSSis is placed on the wrong syLOBBle. A proper emphasis and understanding of the former will typically negate a needless curiosity/wonder about the latter, hence maybe why the ecclesiastical and civil authority angle of things is placed in the latter part of the chapter. We are too quick to focus on what we perceive to be our rights/liberties, rather than to use our liberty unto obedience to restrict/have discipline over things, which might otherwise be lawful, unto God's glory.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

That is part of my question I don't think you addressed - do you believe these plants were created as such (lethally poisonous) or did they, over time, evolve into such a state? In other words, these plants (including marijuana) were created good, so the question is, were they good and lethal (or in the case of marijuana in your opinion, sorcerous) from the start, or were they good and non-lethal and became lethal (or sorcerous) after sin entered the world and corrupted all of creation?

Andrew, this may answer what you were referring to just above (t is from a paper of mine, "The Fate of Babylon", and a subsection of it, "Analysis of pharmakeia nature and action"; I'll attach the paper below).

So at this point please note that I do not assert that demonic power is in the substance of marijuana or LSD, etc. It is simply a plant – or, with respect to LSD, a synthetic mix of chemicals – derived from the created order of things. Their effect is upon the physical body, particularly the brain and neurological system.

Whence then, the sorcerous power of the drugs? Perhaps this may illustrate my view: I was wondering a while ago, reflecting on this topic, what if (indulging briefly in the “if – then fallacy”) there were no demonic realm, no demons, just God and His creation in a holy state; and if someone inhaled the smoke of marijuana, or ate psychedelic mushrooms or peyote buttons, and the affect from ingesting these substances was to make them very aware of their inner being and of the outer physical and spiritual worlds? If there were no demons, this would not – in that context – be sorcery, nor would those substances be categorized and prohibited as pharmakeia agents. There would be no demonic influence at all. But this conjecture presupposes a blessed state greater than original innocence (for there was a devil lurking about the garden), rather the pristine holiness of the eternal state. Perhaps it can be seen where I am going with such thoughts.

Suffice it to say that the drugs act upon the brain and nervous system of humans in some way that they become open to spiritual phenomena, both within themselves – their own human spirits (the depths of their being) – and whatever spiritual is without, which in our world today includes other humans and demons. The demonic agency is not something inherent in the drugs, but is in the world (“the whole world lieth in wickedness” 1 John 5:19; cf. Eph 2:2) , and the drugs open one to that. They don’t open one to God, because God has forbidden using those drugs, and using them incurs His displeasure. I would think that sins of this sort done unwittingly incur less guilt, though the damage to the human soul is not lessened thereby. And damage done to the human community – whether the world or the church – continues, as demonic influence pours in through contact with the consciousness, activities, and works of those partaking the forbidden and unclean thing at issue here.

The pharmakeia agents are unusual – in comparison with other recreational drugs – in this regard: instead of infusing powerful energy (speed/amphetamines) or euphoria (cocaine) into the system, they disable the controlling mind and will of the user and render the consciousness exposed to its own energy and depths of being, and to the presence of other beings in their vicinity, human or otherwise. It is this making the consciousness naked and immeasurably more sensitive in its apprehension of what is, that is the distinctive of these sorcerous drugs. I do not wonder that some may be incredulous that such things might be. Who could imagine it, such a thing happening? I mean, we see reference to such in movies like Matrix, with the blue and red pills – the red pills actually truncated in their consciousness expansion by virtue of the reality-level of the movie – yet showing the concept of taking something that generates awareness. I don’t mean to buttress my argument by this reference, just to show a popular version of the concept.

Back to reality: there are drugs that act upon the brain and nervous system, infusing – as I noted above – energy or euphoria into the nervous system, whereas the unique properties of the pharmakeia agents bring an element into their effect on the brain and nervous system and then on the soul that renders it open rather than acted upon with infusion of power or euphoric sensation. One assesses pharmakeia drugs by their properties, their effect on the human system.​

Perhaps this answers a key concern of yours, Andrew.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Dave, in your post #44, I do not think you are taking into account that I am very specific as to which drugs I am talking of. Alcohol, tobacco, legitimate medicines are not.

You said, "either a substance is only sorcery in the act of its use for conjuring and/or pagan religious practices; or, the substance itself is entirely prohibited and would be so whether it were used for religious purposes, remedy, or recreation".

That latter is certainly the case in what I am saying. Perhaps you are aware of the experiments using psychedelics / entheogens on divinity students, and many of them had "religious experiences" resulting from them — but not at all Christian experience. Rather, it is like those "therapists" who give psychedelics to patients who are dying and they lose their fear of death — even looking forward to it — not because they have made peace with the Lord Jesus, but because demonic counterfeits of "peace with the divine in the universe" has relieved their fear. I think we would know that when dead they awoke in Hell.

Perhaps your extensive experience with grass and whatever else with similar properties has left you with a favorable view of them as being safe. I have wondered what kind of stuff you went through with these drugs. And what, if any, residual effects from those experiences you may have had.

Many do not know that there are various counterfeit spiritual experiences the demonic spirits give to their deluded humans; the Hindu teachings and writings are full of these extensive counterfeits, and so are the writings of tripping ordinary people. Care to share any of this?

 

[davejonescue]

Dave, in your post #44, I do not think you are taking into account that I am very specific as to which drugs I am talking of. Alcohol, tobacco, legitimate medicines are not.

You said, "either a substance is only sorcery in the act of its use for conjuring and/or pagan religious practices; or, the substance itself is entirely prohibited and would be so whether it were used for religious purposes, remedy, or recreation".

That latter is certainly the case in what I am saying. Perhaps you are aware of the experiments using psychedelics / entheogens on divinity students, and many of them had "religious experiences" resulting from them — but not at all Christian experience. Rather, it is like those "therapists" who give psychedelics to patients who are dying and they lose their fear of death — even looking forward to it — not because they have made peace with the Lord Jesus, but because demonic counterfeits of "peace with the divine in the universe" has relieved their fear. I think we would know that when dead they awoke in Hell.

Perhaps your extensive experience with grass and whatever else with similar properties has left you with a favorable view of them as being safe. I have wondered what kind of stuff you went through with these drugs. And what, if any, residual effects from those experiences you may have had.

Many do not know that there are various counterfeit spiritual experiences the demonic spirits give to their deluded humans; the Hindu teachings and writings are full of these extensive counterfeits, and so are the writings of tripping ordinary people. Care to share any of this?

I have done mushrooms, and I have done LSD. In neither of those was my mind exposed to the demonic/angelic realm. Yes, my mind was altered, reality meshed, colors more vibrant and blended, psychosis easily swayed to what is false; but never was a "veil" so to speak lifted to where I witnessed the invisible realm of angels and demons appear. In fact, I would say that meth related sleep deprivation caused a more "wicked" experience of fear and evil paranoia, and experiences of demonic activity by its users than shrooms or trip (LSD) ever did. Having been in both the "party drug" world of hallucinogens, i.e. Weed, Shrooms, LSD, Special-K, X, etc. And also the world of "street drugs" i.e. Crystal, Crack, Cocaine, Heroine, Pills, etc. The latter in my experience has a far more propensity for destruction and evil by its users. The former, though still sin, do each other and society far less harm than the latter.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Dave, you said, "I have done mushrooms, and I have done LSD. In neither of those was my mind exposed to the demonic/angelic realm."

Perhaps you had better said you were not aware your mind was "exposed to the demonic/angelic realm". It is often in their (the demons) best interest to keep their presence concealed from their human subjects. You would know, possibly, if there were any strange phenomena that remains with you.

 

[davejonescue]

Dave, you said, "I have done mushrooms, and I have done LSD. In neither of those was my mind exposed to the demonic/angelic realm."

Perhaps you had better said you were not aware your mind was "exposed to the demonic/angelic realm". It is often in their (the demons) best interest to keep their presence concealed from their human subjects. You would know, possibly, if there were any strange phenomena that remains with you.

What I am meaning is, possession is not contingent on substance. If God were to allow a demonic entity to posses or oppress us, we do not need to be intoxicated for that to happen. What I can easily see with party drugs, is that they can be deemed by the lost as a counterfeit religious experience, but I don't think that so much has to do with the substance being a necessary gateway for demonic entry, but instead, that the mind-altering and euphoric feelings of intoxication, produce "other-world" experiences that the ignorant associate with ascension. The Bible lets us know by the man in the rocks, that demons have no need of chemicals to possess/oppress people if God allows. And this is also how we can kind of differentiate genuine demonic oppression from severe mental illnesses, in that in the case of demonic possession, no medicinal remedy would counter it. Jesus never says that medicine relieves the demonically oppressed, but that it does not leave except by fasting and prayer. What I mean by this, is I do not think so much that demons are dependent on substances to posses or oppress humans, but that they encourage intoxication as a counterfeit for genuine relationship. So that people, by their drug usage, will set up their drugs as their idols, instead of coming to the knowledge of the true God who has no need for drugs, flagellation, chemicals, sex, or drunkenness to have a relationship with.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Dave, you said, "The former, though still sin, do each other and society far less harm than the latter." I would disagree.

In the short-term (the immediate), perhaps, the harm seems less, but in the long term, and as regards society, such deception is horrific in its affect and its effects. The darkening of the collective human consciousness, the zeitgeist — I'm speaking of the U.S. at this point, though what happens in the U.S. does affect and spread into all the world — on the massive scale it already has, is preparing the way for the prince of sorcerers, Lucifer, the "light-bearer", of whom it is written, he will cause strong delusion among all the unregenerate habitants of the world to turn against — to hate — the Christian God and His people.

Like the fictitious "shadow of Mordor" it spreads slowly but surely with its dystopian schemes, disinformation, and curtailing of free speech. Watch, it is the silencing of the preaching of the gospel that is a primary goal of his, and he will be allowed to do it, and so it is written in God's word.

 

[davejonescue]

Dave, you said, "The former, though still sin, do each other and society far less harm than the latter." I would disagree.

In the short-term (the immediate), perhaps, the harm seems less, but in the long term, and as regards society, such deception is horrific in its affect and its effects. The darkening of the collective human consciousness, the zeitgeist — I'm speaking of the U.S. at this point, though what happens in the U.S. does affect and spread into all the world — on the massive scale it already has, is preparing the way for the prince of sorcerers, Lucifer, the "light-bearer", of whom it is written, he will cause strong delusion among all the unregenerate habitants of the world to turn against — to hate — the Christian God and His people.

Like the fictitious "shadow of Mordor" it spreads slowly but surely with its dystopian schemes, disinformation, and curtailing of free speech. Watch, it is the silencing of the preaching of the gospel that is a primary goal of his, and he will be allowed to do it, and so it is written in God's word.

I agree with that. And I do think the legalizing of drugs has a lot to do with it. But I also think Satan is more crafty than that, and that he uses more efficient forms of witchcraft like music to cast his spells, and entertainment to predispose and coerce the masses for his schemes. Far more people indulge in these things than drugs, legal or not. And there is a reason why it is well-known, but widely ignored, that people in the positions of influence, must "sell their souls" to get there.

I am with you on the drug thing though. I have left that fully in Gods hands. If he allows them in eternity, so be it, maybe on the weekends. If not, then praise Jesus he had me stop them now. This life is a speck of sand in the desert of eternity, and soon enough, I will know.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

That Satan uses music and entertainment as more efficient forms of witchcraft to cast his spells? Dave, I think you are very perceptive on the "local" level, but miss a deeper and broader aspect of what is going on. As in, you miss the forest for the trees.

But I must admit that what you say is undoubtedly true, and I appreciate the details you bring forth as to an aspect of the cultural affect the "spells" music and entertainment cast over great multitudes' minds and hearts.

If these are the "trees" I speak of, what then is the "forest"?

The forest is the world the Christians live in, and the slow criminalization of them, of their faith, of the holy Law of God they hold forth, of their concepts of sin, repentance, Heaven, and Hell. In Islamic lands it is already a done thing, and in countries like North Korea the same.

Two things must be utterly defamed and outlawed as regards what these Christians hold forth as the good and the true: the Person of Jesus the Messiah-Christ, and the Bible. And there is one every fiber of whose being is honed keen to destroy the reputation — the honor — of the Christ, our Lord. So far he is doing it through various small bad actors in various spheres.

But there will come a point when he will no longer keep a low profile, but will come out into the open. Do we have any hints on when that will be from Scripture? I think 2 Thessalonians 2 shines light there. Something is holding the Man of sin back from being revealed, something is restraining him, and someone; I believe it is the open preaching of the gospel, and the power of the Spirit of Christ in that preaching. There will come a great falling away from — or rebellion against — the church of Christ and its Bible, and in particular Christ Himself.

And one shall arise who will, as Greg Beale puts it, “incarnate Satan’s character in his person more than anyone hitherto.” (Beale’s commentary on 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, p 221). This brilliant, cunning, deceitful person will speak of the harm Christ and His followers are causing by their "wicked" and "hateful" doctrines which go against the new standards of human freedom and dignity held by all who treasure health and goodness.

Perhaps there will be a "tipping point" when the laws against the Bible and the mission of the faithful churches are just commencing, and he will arise, and in the name of Sacred Humanity demand an end to "the evil of the Christ and his people and their Book."

There is a plan, already laid, being worked out. The seducing of the masses, by the spells of the "more efficient forms of witchcraft", that is, music and entertainment and sorcerous drugs of all stripes, and will bear their fruit, when someone comes along who will harvest the fruit of the seduction.

This all is spoken of in the fifth trumpet judgment — the first woe — the initial influx of the demonic into the human consciousness through the sorcery unleashed in the last century. Next is the second woe, the sixth trumpet, when great wars decimate 1/3rd of humankind.

Dave, I think your take on the local effect of the sorcerous drugs is sound. The wider effect — in the forest — remains to be seen. The world is a nuclear hotspot now with madmen at the helm of their respective countries. Thanks for clarifying certain details — the trees..

 

[Northern Crofter]

Perhaps this answers a key concern of yours, Andrew.

Not quite - it's still not clear to me whether you believe these plants were created as lethally poisonous or harmfully psychoactive, or did they, over time, evolve into such a state after the entrance of sin into the world?

They don’t open one to God, because God has forbidden using those drugs, and using them incurs His displeasure.

The pharmakeia agents are unusual – in comparison with other recreational drugs – in this regard: instead of infusing powerful energy (speed/amphetamines) or euphoria (cocaine) into the system, they disable the controlling mind and will of the user and render the consciousness exposed to its own energy and depths of being, and to the presence of other beings in their vicinity, human or otherwise.

What Scripture supports this? In understand and follow your reasoning regarding pharmakeia in nature and action, but how do you place some substances under that prohibition and not others? How do you know cocaine doesn't also open the human soul to demonic activity since it alters one's state of consciousness (albeit in a sped-up version)?

The demonic agency is not something inherent in the drugs, but is in the world (“the whole world lieth in wickedness” 1 John 5:19; cf. Eph 2:2) , and the drugs open one to that.

I agree. But I'm not sure that drugs are more or less a gateway to the demonic any more than other vices - sexual immorality seems to be another (perhaps more prevalent) gateway in Scripture. For example, when Moses tarried on the mountain, the Israelites didn't smoke pot in front of the golden calf idol - a form of demon worship - they ate, drank, and "rose up to play." In the Old Testament, the term "high places" wasn't referring to where the Israelites were smoking weed - these are where they worshipped the Canaanite fertility deities such as Baal and Asherah in ritual fornication. There is no hint of drug use that I can think of in OT passages dealing with demonic activity or idolatry.

I guess my concern is that you are very ardent about drugs being a gateway to demonic activity, but is that really the greatest spiritual concern? It would seem that the gravest dangers to our souls are our own flesh, the world around us, and then the devil and his minions. The first two are always around us whereas the latter, while dangerous, are not omnipresent - the devil focuses on principalities, powers, governors, princes, and those in high places (Ephesians 6:12). Does he really have time to send his finite, limited resources into the drug-induced brain of every pothead?

I have a question for you also: The sorcery spoken of in Revelation 18:23, bringing horrific judgment on Babylon, and the cognate of which (sorcerer pharmakeus) in Rev 21:8 and 22:15 says these practitioners shall, if remaining unrepentant, shall partake of hell-fire and be denied entrance to the City of God. What is this sorcery, and who are these sorcerers to warrant such extreme judgment — according to Scripture?

I believe this is referring to more than just the use of drugs - there are many forms of sorcery, and they do not all involve drug use. In Revelation 21:8 and 22:15, sorcery (Greek: pharmakeia) is mentioned as a sin that leads to exclusion from the New Jerusalem, alongside other vices such as murder, theft, and idolatry. These are much more sins of the flesh than of supernatural influence.

And I responded, “The answer to which would be, 'Indeed He gave us all herbs and plants, but as the rest of the verse says, 'to you it shall be for food' even as in the next verse He gave the same for the animals of the earth to eat; not for later humans to smoke or ingest to change their consciousness and enter the spirit world."

This seems a bit silly to me. The Hebrew translated "for food" means "for consumption." I don't eat tea leaves or chew coffee beans, but they are still something I ingest for their various properties. Regardless, marijuana and other drugs can be consumed in many forms, and the text simply and clearly says that all plants are given to us to consume.

 

[Charles Johnson]

I agree. But I'm not sure that drugs are more or less a gateway to the demonic any more than other vices - sexual immorality seems to be another (perhaps more prevalent) gateway in Scripture. For example, when Moses tarried on the mountain, the Israelites didn't smoke pot in front of the golden calf idol - a form of demon worship - they ate, drank, and "rose up to play." In the Old Testament, the term "high places" wasn't referring to where the Israelites were smoking weed - these are where they worshipped the Canaanite fertility deities such as Baal and Asherah in ritual fornication. There is no hint of drug use that I can think of in OT passages dealing with demonic activity or ididolatry.

There is actually solid archeological evidence that marijuana was employed in the Canaanitish / Israelite high places.

This seems a bit silly to me. The Hebrew translated "for food" means "for consumption." I don't eat tea leaves or chew coffee beans, but they are still something I ingest for their various properties. Regardless, marijuana and other drugs can be consumed in many forms, and the text simply and clearly says that all plants are given to us to consume.

The Hebrew term used generally means "herb", or an edible plant. There is no indication in the text that man was eating elm trees and poison ivy.

And if the term were simply "plant" it would still be reasonable to assume edible plants were in mind.

 

[Northern Crofter]

There is actually solid archeological evidence that marijuana was employed in the Canaanitish / Israelite high places

That's interesting - I've heard claims of the use of cannabis in early Judaism and that the plant "keneh bosem" mentioned throughout the OT was actually cannibas (and that it was one of the elements of the holy oil used for anointing in Exodus). And i recently saw an article that stated that modern Jews in the West have a statistically higher use of cannabis than the rest of the population (cannibas has a long record of being kosher even in strict sects of Judaism - you just can't smoke it on the Sabbath because of Exodus 35.3).

But this, and the recent archeological evidence (I did not see any reference to "high places" in the article you linked - the evidence was found in a fortress), is all extra-Biblical conjecture and the OP and subsequent discussion has been appealing to Biblical/confessional reasoning.

The Hebrew term used generally means "herb", or an edible plant. There is no indication in the text that man was eating elm trees and poison ivy.

And if the term were simply "plant" it would still be reasonable to assume edible plants were in mind.

I'm not sure I follow. The text speaks generally of eating plants and the fruit of trees which would include plants and their fruits (berries) as well as all the fruits of trees (fruit, seeds, nuts, sap, etc). In any event, marijuana is an edible plant - growing up it was often simply referred to as "herb."

So, again, the question remains - were plants/trees like hemlock, poison ivy, and the many plants whose berries are toxic to humans that way from creation or did they devolve/mutate into such "not good" plants due to the entrance of sin?

 

[lynnie]

Welcome to PuritanBoard, Mikey!

It is better to go to our primary standard (Scripture) before the secondary (our Confessions), when seeking to prove such a point.

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well (1 Peter 2:13, 14).​

There are many narcotics legally and humanely used for severe pain relief. Marijuana is not a narcotic.

Marijuana may rightly be classified as a substance, a property of which is to render one's consciousness present and (in varying degrees) aware in the spirit world, and is used in that way by pagan religions (or adepts and occultists) in order for individuals to contact their deities (demons). It is also among the substances termed psychedelics or entheogens (god manifesting within), and is termed by Scripture as sorcery, and expressly forbidden (Gal 5:20, 21; Rev 9:21; 18:23; 21:8; 22:15).

When local governments approve of grass (marijuana), and it is obtainable widely by a doctor's prescription for various ailments, in many people's minds that overrides the federal prohibition which is rarely, if ever, enforced upon local gov'ts. It is true that some Christians use it on those bases. The stronger entheogens are now also being touted widely as healing agents, for trauma, terminal illness calming before death, etc.

Because of the "contact high" of such drugs, if legally (or illegally) used while in the context of a local church, they will bring demonic presence into the holy community.

This may be disputed by some, but if elders in the churches do not openly speak and teach about and against such things, it will bode ill for the church, and for the elders, come judgment time.

Hey Blade, I enjoyed those family photos. Wrong thread I know.

I looked up entheogens, having never seen the word before. Good old Wiki says "Anthropological study has established that entheogens are used for religious, magical, shamanic, or spiritual purposes in many parts of the world." Also, "In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens, but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens."

— Ruck et al., 1979, Journal of Psychedelic Drugs[7]

Its basically what you said. But in addition to pot, the list includes opium, wine, tobacco, and coffee. I find it interesting, and frankly, are addictions ever NOT spiritual bondage? I see people smoke and drink in a way that alters their personality ( seems better with the tobacco).

What amazed me though is that cacoa is in the list. I did a further search.

There are various compounds in Cacao that produce tangible effects within the mind, the most important of which are PEA (phenylethylamine) and anandamide.

PEA, which can increase dopamine production, enhance attentiveness, and elevate one’s mood, is often referred to as the “love” chemical. Anandamide, the “bliss” chemical, targets the same regions of the brain as THC, which can significantly affect our sense of motivation, pleasure, and memory. Anandamide brings a resulting sensation that could be compared to a “body high”.

Both PEA and anandamide are naturally produced in the brain; however, Cacao provides us with an extra boost! Many may experience this as a deepening of connectivity to the self and others, making Cacao a powerful ally for diving deeper into emotional and spiritual work. On top of this, the combination of anandamide and magnesium, which is also present in Cacao, can help bring the body into a more physiologically relaxed state, which can be crucial for transformational inner work.

Today, Cacao is often used as a heart-opener and facilitator of spiritual work. Being a vasodilator, Cacao increases blood flow to the brain and heart. If one wishes to observe this through the spiritual lens, the sensation could be described as bringing more energy or Qi to the heart chakra. The phrase “move into the heart” is often used in the spiritual practice of Cacao. Combined with the previously discussed effects Cacao has on the mind, this entheogen promotes deeper opening mentally, physically, and emotionally: creating a perfect recipe for spiritual work.

Keith Wilson, creator of Keith's Cacao, notes, "Ceremonial Cacao makes it much easier (for those who are willing) to deeply access the emotional body, pain-body, or density on the dark shadow side, or ready expansion and higher dimensional connection on the light shadow side. Especially in a vibrationally supportive, non-fixing, and non-judgmental setting, many go considerably deeper than they otherwise would. And understandings tend to lead to more permanent changes than those of many psychedelic trips.

Cacao & its Place Among Plant Medicines, Entheogens, & Psychedelics

Explore the role of Ceremonial Cacao as an entheogen plant medicine. Learn how it gently interacts with the mind, enhancing emotional and spiritual work without hallucinogenic effects. Discover its role in heart-opening practices and its synergy with psychedelics and other plant medicines.

www.keithscacao.com

Hum. I don't do pot, but I have used prescription opium compounds after surgery and I thank God for them. Chocolate? Almost every day.

One fact, studied proven fact, is that kids watching fast moving TV shows, after about 45 minutes, are producing the brain waves of hypnotism. I've seen people on phones that are "zombied". Is that really any less mind altering than smoking pot? ( BTW I don't do it or advocate for it at least not recreationally; for severe pain maybe, instead of opiate addiction.)

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have never understood, from a chemical or brain standpoint, the way you pick on pot which is not even a hallucinogen. I mean if we can use opiates for pain, what is the chemical difference? I almost became a chem major in college and I haven't researched this myself, but if wine and tobacco and coffee and chocolate have all been used as entheogens, why not go after all the Christians addicted to drinking caffeine, or wine, or smoking, or eating chocolate, or getting glazed trance eyes staring at a screen? I just don't get it.

My nephew is hooked on the bong and it has messed him up a lot, so don't get me wrong, I understand your concern about pot. But is it the pot, or the addiction to excess, that is the real problem? What about the pastors who cannot- literally cannot- function without endless diet coke?

I would prefer to see some chemical research on this subject. I don't see the way you single out pot as more than opinion. I KNOW!! I might be wrong. But I would like to see more than what you tend to post. Thanks! I smoked pot occasionally for two years after high school before I got saved, and I never had a vision of any sort, which makes me put pot in with the wine and coffee and nicotine and chocolate. Blessed chocolate : )

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Andrew, in my post #45, I said this to you, and I ask if you would please give me an answer:

I have a question for you also: The sorcery spoken of in Revelation 18:23, bringing horrific judgment on Babylon, and the cognate of which (sorcerer pharmakeus) in Rev 21:8 and 22:15 says these practitioners shall, if remaining unrepentant, shall partake of hell-fire and be denied entrance to the City of God. What is this sorcery, and who are these sorcerers to warrant such extreme judgment — according to Scripture? What do you say?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Andrew, you more recently said, "So, again, the question remains - were plants/trees like hemlock, poison ivy, and the many plants whose berries are toxic to humans that way from creation or did they devolve/mutate into such 'not good' plants due to the entrance of sin?"

We're talking about bare toxicity now, not sorcery. How about other substances in creation — although some need to be refined and processed — like crude oil, or gasoline, or radioactive materials? You don't want to ingest any of these things.

I frankly don't know about hemlock or poison ivy, if they were in the Edenic garden, and if Adam was aware of them and they were to be treated differently — with caution.

As for grass being accepted by early Jews, and its supposedly being "kosher" — besides the multitude of bizarre ideas floating around, one Scriptural point remains: any trafficking with the demonic world was punishable by death. Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". In the LXX / Septuagint Greek it is as in the Greek NT, a cognate of pharmakeia, pharmakeus, sorcerer. See also Deut 18:10 NKJV.

Despite all the extra-biblical and oft bizarre and anecdotal claims regarding cannabis, it remains that it is widely understood to be a "holy" substance used for accessing and connecting with demonic entities (see post #41 and its governmental use in Nepal, for instance).

Yes, in these days there are all sorts of "articles" promoting the "legit" use of marijuana in Judaism, but "modern Judaism" is not to be trusted against the book of the Jews, the word of God. I am a Jew, and familiar with the Lord's Book, our Bible. Modern Judaism is comprised of the renegade Israelites stripped of the name Israel and Jew, and is full of all sorts of madness and wickedness. Please answer my question in post 59, Andrew.

Lynnie, wine, coffee, nicotine, chocolate, etc are hardly to be compared to marijuana (which is nowadays far more potent than it was in the days of yore — the previous century).

Can some of these you mentioned change our consciousness? Sure, mildly, but in no wise remotely similar to grass. You say you never had any visions when you, in earlier days, smoked it. That's typical, as being lifted into the realm of spirits by the agency of the weed usually does not involve that, often simply enhancing physical senses and mental functioning; and the spirits are glad to have it so, not wanting to reveal their presence. Sorcery may be limited — as far as our awareness is concerned — to heightened pleasure. That's a reason it is so popular!

There may be some mild mood or mind elevators in various foods or plants, but not to be compared to the entheogens, which term signifies "God realized — manifested — within" and is a demonic counterfeit of the real presence of God conveyed to His children by the Holy Spirit. Little wonder it is called a "sacrament" by some deceived by such.

Cocaine (as it was mentioned) is a borderline psychedelic, as is speed, both often used by those who have used the psychedelics, and the affect of the latter contributes to the former.

I go to these lengths on this topic so as to give ample warning to God's children about the immediate danger of opening oneself to that realm. One doesn't smoke or otherwise ingest (which latter may be extremely potent) for no reason at all, but for the enhanced pleasure and alertness it affords. It is far "superior" than alcohol in that respect. It is a vital aspect of sorcery nonetheless.

As Paul says, "Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Cor 9:16 NKJV), seeing as he was a persecutor of the children of God granted great grace; so for me, as the Lord rescued me out of such terrible depths with clear insight into what I (and many others) had done, I have an obligation to the Lord to communicate this to others. It is not "a passion" of mine — for I spend a lot of my precious time on this — but an obligation. I cannot just "write off" those caught up in what I have been given to expose. It would be a woe unto me.