Christian Liberty

[Northern Crofter]

Andrew, in my post #45, I said this to you, and I ask if you would please give me an answer:

I have a question for you also: The sorcery spoken of in Revelation 18:23, bringing horrific judgment on Babylon, and the cognate of which (sorcerer pharmakeus) in Rev 21:8 and 22:15 says these practitioners shall, if remaining unrepentant, shall partake of hell-fire and be denied entrance to the City of God. What is this sorcery, and who are these sorcerers to warrant such extreme judgment — according to Scripture? What do you say?

I quoted this and answered it in #55

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Andrew,

I just read your post #55, and you did not answer my question:

The sorcery spoken of in Revelation 18:23, bringing horrific judgment on Babylon, and the cognate of which (sorcerer pharmakeus) in Rev 21:8 and 22:15 says these practitioners shall, if remaining unrepentant, shall partake of hell-fire and be denied entrance to the City of God. What is this sorcery, and who are these sorcerers to warrant such extreme judgment — according to Scripture?​

You talked around it, theorized about some things, but did not give me a plain, concise answer.

I already replied re cocaine. When you say things like this (from post #55),

"sorcery (Greek: pharmakeia) is mentioned as a sin that leads to exclusion from the New Jerusalem, alongside other vices such as murder, theft, and idolatry. These are much more sins of the flesh than of supernatural influence"​

You err in thinking all "sins of the flesh" are physical and not "supernatural". Sins of the flesh, as used here, are those committed by the unregenerate man, and indeed do include sorcery, pride, etc.

I agree that the physical sins do allow demonic influence and presence into the souls of those who commit them, but sorcery is a different class of "sins of the flesh", and which, it appears you are not going to give me a clear, concise, Biblical answer.

Apparently you want to re-define what "sorcery" is, but it only shows you do not know, or at least do not want to concede to the simple answer, despite Greek scholars and commentators definitions.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Continuing to respond in your post 55, you said my view that, quoting Scripture, all plants were given us — and the animals — for food, and not for changing our states of consciousness as in "consuming" marijuana — you said my view was "silly".

Are you defending the view that because certain plants might have — or likely did — exist in the original creation, they are all meant for us to consume? And that, on your view, it is perfectly righteous to ingest grass, say, in the form of "gummies" or baked into cookies?

There are some who, hearing your publicly stated view, make this their defense for the legitimacy of smoking grass, consuming psilocybin mushrooms, mescaline, etc, and teach others so (even as many people — not members of PB — nonetheless may take to heart your view as sound), and proceed to indulge with these substances and enter into serious sin.

You wrong your own soul by such distortion of Scripture. The apostle warns, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment" (James 3:1 NKJV).

 

[Northern Crofter]

Are you defending the view that because certain plants might have — or likely did — exist in the original creation, they are all meant for us to consume? And that, on your view, it is perfectly righteous to ingest grass, say, in the form of "gummies" or baked into cookies?

No and no - I don't have a view yet. I'm still trying to figure out the answer to the question of whether plants like marijuana were created with the properties they currently have or if they have devolved/mutated into such "not good" plants due to the entrance of sin and its general corrupting influence on creation.

You err in thinking all "sins of the flesh" are physical and not "supernatural". Sins of the flesh, as used here, are those committed by the unregenerate man, and indeed do include sorcery, pride, etc.

I did not state that I believe sins of the flesh = physical causes. All sin is at its root cause spiritual. But that does not mean they are all caused by supernatural influence.

I just read your post #55, and you did not answer my question....

Apparently you want to re-define what "sorcery" is, but it only shows you do not know, or at least do not want to concede to the simple answer, despite Greek scholars and commentators definitions.

No, we just have different definitions - I believe part of what makes sorcery the sin that it is would be the intent of the practitioner. You are claiming that use of marijuana et al regardless of intent leads to (or is) sorcerous activity.

I am choosing not to engage with your interpretation of Revelation - we have a history of being committed to different eschatological views, and our interpretations of Revelation are thus different. I do not, for example, believe drug-induced sorcery is the reason for the judgment of Babylon in Revelation 18.

Apparently you want to re-define what "sorcery" is, but it only shows you do not know, or at least do not want to concede to the simple answer, despite Greek scholars and commentators definitions.

Brother, have you considered the fact that many translations of the text do not arrive at the word "sorcery"? Are all of the Greek scholars and commentators behind the Geneva ("enchantment") or NAS ("witchcraaft") distorting Scripture in your view, or is it perhaps the case that there is a more general view (enchantment, sorcery, sorceries, witchcraft) of Babylon spiritually deceiving the nations in many ways (ie. not all caused by using drugs)? Again, do you believe Satan really has the ability to send his finite, limited demonic resources into the drug-induced brain of everyone who smokes pot?

 

[Northern Crofter]

Continuing to respond in your post 55, you said my view that, quoting Scripture, all plants were given us — and the animals — for food, and not for changing our states of consciousness as in "consuming" marijuana — you said my view was "silly".

I meant your seemingly wooden, literal interpretation of Genesis 1.29 seems silly - that plants are only intended to be eaten, not ingested in other ways.

Are you defending the view that because certain plants might have — or likely did — exist in the original creation, they are all meant for us to consume? And that, on your view, it is perfectly righteous to ingest grass, say, in the form of "gummies" or baked into cookies?

The text (Genesis 1.29-30) states "And God said, Behold, I have given unto you every herb bearing seed, which is upon all the earth, and every tree, wherein is the fruit of a tree bearing seed: that shall be to you for meat. Likewise to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heaven, and to everything that moveth upon the earth, which hath life in itself, every green herb shall be for meat, and it was so." Do you think marijuana was created with the same psychoactive properties it currently has?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Andrew, thanks for sharing more on what you think. As it is legal in your state, do you feel free to use marijuana?

 

[Charles Johnson]

I meant your seemingly wooden, literal interpretation of Genesis 1.29 seems silly - that plants are only intended to be eaten, not ingested in other ways.

The text (Genesis 1.29-30) states "And God said, Behold, I have given unto you every herb bearing seed, which is upon all the earth, and every tree, wherein is the fruit of a tree bearing seed: that shall be to you for meat. Likewise to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heaven, and to everything that moveth upon the earth, which hath life in itself, every green herb shall be for meat, and it was so." Do you think marijuana was created with the same psychoactive properties it currently has?

Again, I think you're ignoring that in the usus loquendi of this term עשב, it's often used only for edible plants (i.e. vegetables), which does not include marijuana. No one is making marijuana salads and eating marijuana with ranch dressing.

Compare Genesis 9:3 (which was after the fall of man): "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs (עשב)."
Here, God specifically says that the things in question are being considered as "food." Moreover, this was after the fall, so one can't claim that these plants were previously edible and stopped being so.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Hello Andrew, thanks for sharing more on what you think. As it is legal in your state, do you feel free to use marijuana?

I believe I answered this in #2 (it's not currently legal as a recreational substance in any state - which should be enough to give any believer in the US pause before using it, even for someone like me who is pretty pro-state) and also pretty clearly at the end of #43.

 

[Pomopu]

To me it seems clear marijuana and other hallucinogenic/psychotropics or whatever are a result of the fall. Or if not, we are so hurt by the fall that even if they aren't they end up being "fallen," since we are.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Again, I think you're ignoring that in the usus loquendi of this term עשב, it's often used only for edible plants (i.e. vegetables), which does not include marijuana. No one is making marijuana salads and eating marijuana with ranch dressing.

Compare Genesis 9:3 (which was after the fall of man): "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs (עשב)."
Here, God specifically says that the things in question are being considered as "food." Moreover, this was after the fall, so one can't claim that these plants were previously edible and stopped being so.

I don't believe I'm ignoring anything - I just think we disagree on the meaning of Genesis 1.29-30. I believe when it mentions that plants and animals have been given to us for "meat" or "food" (אָכְלָה) the essence via synecdoche is that we are given these things for our survival - this includes the fibers and skins of plants and animals for clothing, as well as parts of plants and animals for medicinal and other purposes. I believe this is in keeping with the fact this term אָכְלָה can also be faithfully translated as "sustenance" and these two are linked throughout Scripture (1 Timothy 6.8 comes to mind).

I agree that עשב may be often used only for edible plants, which means it's not always, though I'm not sure what definition of "edible" excludes ingesting marijuana. Doesn't edible simply mean able to be eaten? Would you say the marijuana plant is inedible? "Raw" Ceylon tea leaves are just as much edible/inedible as "raw" marijuana leaves I would think.

I lean towards the idea that all the plants we have now are descended/evolved by ordinary generation from those first created, but that the curse of sin has negatively affected their natural usefulness (see Genesis 3.17-18 and Romans 8.22) as well as mankind's lawful use of them (see Romans 1). Nevertheless, every plant and animal still has a useful purpose for mankind and part of our dominion/rule mandate pre- and post-Fall includes figuring that out (see Genesis 1.26-30 and 9.2-3).

But all this aside, the overriding Biblical principle remains: "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." (I Corinthians 10.31). I'm nor sure how using marijuana products for recreational purposes can be done in a way that brings glory to God, but I'm also not convinced it automatically introduces the user to a demonic realm.

 

[Charles Johnson]

I lean towards the idea that all the plants we have now are descended/evolved by ordinary generation from those first created, but that the curse of sin has negatively affected their natural usefulness (see Genesis 3.17-18 and Romans 8.22) as well as mankind's lawful use of them (see Romans 1). Nevertheless, every plant and animal still has a useful purpose for mankind and part of our dominion/rule mandate pre- and post-Fall includes figuring that out (see Genesis 1.26-30 and 9.2-3).

I agree that the hemp plant has lawful uses. For example, making rope.

But there is no consequence from the plant having some lawful use in general to smoking it in particular being lawful.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Andrew, have you ever smoked or otherwise ingested marijuana? So that you have first-hand experience of its affect in the human being?

 

[Northern Crofter]

Andrew, have you ever smoked or otherwise ingested marijuana? So that you have first-hand experience of its affect in the human being?

I'm not sure I see the relevance of my experience with marijuana. Several people on this thread have shared their various experiences - what would be the point of me adding mine?

 

[jwright82]

Andrew, have you ever smoked or otherwise ingested marijuana? So that you have first-hand experience of its affect in the human being?

First off, I have nothing but respect for you sir. But I wanna see where your going with this, a friendly "ok what's the point". I do mean friendly.
I have ingested not only marijuana but about at one time, a long time ago (15 years ago), everything you could do. I've smoked stuff, shot stuff up, it's truly a miracle that I'm not braindead or just dead dead.
The Lord rescued me from that lifestyle. But that said, what then is your question my friend?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Jamey,

What I asked Andrew was a sincere and pertinent question. We're talking about all this stuff, and I want to know what his actual knowledge of this stuff is.

Is that not reasonable, given the ideas concerning them he holds forth?

 

[Northern Crofter]

Hello Jamey,

What I asked Andrew was a sincere and pertinent question. We're talking about all this stuff, and I want to know what his actual knowledge of this stuff is.

Is that not reasonable, given the ideas concerning them he holds forth?

But what does my (or anyone else's) personal experience have to do with whether or not marijuana use is a matter of Christian liberty, a gateway to the occult, etc.?

 

[jwright82]

Hello Jamey,

What I asked Andrew was a sincere and pertinent question. We're talking about all this stuff, and I want to know what his actual knowledge of this stuff is.

Is that not reasonable, given the ideas concerning them he holds forth?

Oh fair enough. My knowledge is pretty extensive so if you, or anyone else, have any questions then feel free.

 

[MW]

Brethren, this is a public site. Your information is in the public domain. Please think twice before divulging personal information that is going to prejudice you in the public eye. Think of Prince Harry's Memoirs and the confession of drug use. You don't know what trouble you might stir up for yourself or your family into the future.

 

[lynnie]

Blade, I still dont "get" how you separate pot from opioid pain meds.

This article is mostly anti- pot, certainly just to get high, and is from a neurological journal. It has all kinds of warnings in it about the dangers of pot.

Weeding Out Misconceptions: Neurological Effects of Marijuana

Due to marijuana’s supposed low addiction potential, a perceived lack of long-term irreversible side effects, and various social dynamics normalizing it after the War on Drugs changed to a movement towards legalization, marijuana is frequently seen as a less harmful option for drug...

greymattersjournal.org

Cannabis products are also useful for chronic pain management, and are undeniably associated with better outcomes than opiates in the vast majority of cases [13]. A study of Medicare Part D patients found that states with medical marijuana prescribed about 1.79 million fewer doses of opiates between 2010 and 2015, with hydrocodone and morphine prescriptions decreasing the most. Marijuana use is a significant advance in pain management, as exposure to opiates in a medical setting is often a gateway to addiction [13]. On that front, the advance of legal marijuana is helpful for managing pain in vulnerable populations, including college students who may not want to take the risk of using opiates for pain.

I had opiates in some form with a tooth extraction, root canal, and two gum grafts, and after a minor foot surgery. My knee surgery last year I had fentanyl. Fentanyl- what a wonderful gift from God to mankind. I slept soundly for a day after, and felt nothing for 28 hours, and never even needed the three days of tramadol they gave me after the long painless rest.

I've never had enough to get a physical addiction. Four days max. But suppose I had come back from two tours in Iraq and had agonizing pain. Or suppose I had terrible back problems, severe ones, and it was either pot or opiates or alcohol just to endure. This is strictly my personal opinion, and I could be wrong, but when such things are used to dull pain, I don't think the mind enters into the sorcery state of consciousness. All the mind does is feel some respite from all consuming pain, and the focus is not on occult spiritual things, but just on trying to not move in a way that aggravates the pain, or trying to sleep, or trying to do something its is hard to do with the pain.

In my opinion, your presentation lacks the scientific sort of thing I posted before, such as THC and chocolate affecting the exact same parts of the brain. What happens with an opioid that makes it acceptable to you for pain, but not pot? What receptor? What brain hormone? What brainwaves? I wish you could put some concrete brain information out against pot versus other pain relief, because otherwise it comes off as unsubstantiated opinion. The link I posted has some brain information, but I assume it would all be the same for recreational addictive opioids, and anyway they say pot is better in the quote above.

If the grid goes down, or some terrible crisis happens, and somebody is in excruciating pain, while I know you mean well and have good motivations, I don't see any concrete reason not to try to get them some edible pot to help until other modern medicine is restored. I agree with you about recreational highs, but not pain. And no I am not using it.

 

[davejonescue]

It may partly be, and this is just an opinion, is Blade saw a generation (the 60's & 70's) who heavily used weed and psychedelics in a pseudo-spiritual pursuit of transcendence. Not just limited pockets, but as a huge part of the counter-culture. We don't really see that today. As I mentioned earlier, I did drugs for years, psychedelics and street drugs, and 99.99% of people in both circles were just looking to get high. Something has to be said about the removal of motive. Tobacco for instance, is pure in itself. Yet, for periods of time, and still today by Natives, it was/is heavily used in religious practices, as a route to ascension. Tobacco in itself is not a gateway to the demonic, but the motive may separate something from purity or profanation. The same can be said for sex, alcohol, music, etc. I think it is more the ignorance (that one is sinning) or the intent to sin against God that attracts the demonic, then it is by what means we may do so.

Don't get me wrong, New Ager's, Shaman's, and Witches have not died out. But they are only a fraction of, at least American culture. And I don't think really constitute a majority of drug users, elicit or legal.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Brethren, this is a public site. Your information is in the public domain. Please think twice before divulging personal information that is going to prejudice you in the public eye.

This that Rev Winzer says is certainly true.

However, the views — theories — that Andrew holds forth about the acceptability of using marijuana as "God made all created things for our use (citing Genesis 1:29)", these theories have also been put forth in the "public domain" for all eyes to see, and that coming from a respected and sound Christian discussion board. Who knows how many will take Andrew's opinions to heart and "give grass a try"?

Too bad you didn't give your caution when Andrew was promoting his dangerous acceptance of marijuana, Matthew!

When talking about such socially relevant — and Biblically relevant — matters by Puritan Board members, asking for transparency, full disclosure, is certainly appropriate.

When eloquently waxing forth on a topic of such importance, it is certainly appropriate to inquire as to such a proponent's knowledge of the subject he is "teaching" on! Especially when it is false teaching!

"Oh, I see that Puritan Board is now approving the use of marijuana for Christians, as 'God made all things good', as long as we do it in moderation", is a saying that we — or I, for one — do not want to see influencing the very many visitors to our site, encouraging them to indulge in sorcery.

If Andrew does not want to make full disclosure of his "knowledge" re marijuana, fine, but he has already gone very far in influencing others to consider it acceptable practice for Christians. And when you, Matthew, seem to want to give your "caution" just when such a promoter is being asked for transparency, well, I think that's a poor showing on your part.

Remember, friends — both members, and visitors — the warning our holy God, the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, has given us in Revelation 21:8 and Revelation 22:15, that those involved in sorcery are consigned to the lake of fire, and banned from the city of God in the eternal state. A lot is at stake in the words spoken here on PB! We are (or were?) a source of respected teaching to the larger Christian community.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Lynnie, if "recreational highs" are a danger — due to opening one to the demonic realm — then pain relief is in the same boat. That is the crux. As I noted earlier in this thread, even were I to be in such excruciating pain and there were no other remedy but grass, I would — God giving me grace — not use it. Could the Lord sustain me during torture? I trust Him if that eventuality were to be mine.

Better the old way of whiskey for pain relief. Pain meds are also widely available.

If you don't see grass "opening one to the demonic realm" — then no wonder you think as you do. But it is widely known and attested to that this is indeed the case, and a primary means to make contacts in the spirit world. I think I have substantiated that. "Brain science", whatever its worth, measures what is knowable on the material plane, but not in the "ethereal" which cannot be measured.

We are letting the world, and its ways — its pleasures, joys, and illicit remedies to alleviate suffering — into our holy precincts. Grass is big in the world now, acceptable, wonderful, useful — and in the new Federal administration to come may be fully acceptable — but I for one am not of the world or its ways.

Friends, do not be deceived. The ways of the world are not our ways. And the spiritual practices of the world are not ours either. Grass is a big part of the world's spiritual practices. Are we so depleted of spiritual vitality that we must turn to marijuana for heightened experience? Are we so distant from the life and glory of our Saviour that we have to root around in the dung pile of Satan's ways to find relief from this world's ills?

 

[davejonescue]

Lynnie, if "recreational highs" are a danger — due to opening one to the demonic realm — then pain relief is in the same boat. That is the crux. As I noted earlier in this thread, even were I to be in such excruciating pain and there were no other remedy but grass, I would — God giving me grace — not use it. Could the Lord sustain me during torture? I trust Him if that eventuality were to be mine.

Better the old way of whiskey for pain relief. Pain meds are also widely available.

If you don't see grass "opening one to the demonic realm — then no wonder you think as you do. But it is widely known and attested to that this is indeed the case, and a primary means to make contacts in the spirit world. I think I have substantiated that. "Brain science", whatever its worth, measures what is knowable on the material plane, but not in the "ethereal" which cannot be measured.

We are letting the world, and its ways — its pleasures, joys, and illicit remedies to alleviate suffering — into our holy precincts. Grass is big in the world now, acceptable, wonderful, useful — and in the new Federal administration to come may be fully acceptable — but I for one am not of the world or its ways.

Friends, do not be deceived. The ways of the world are not our ways. And the spiritual practices of the world are not ours either. Grass is a big part of the world's spiritual practices. Are we so depleted of spiritual vitality that we must turn to marijuana for heightened experience? Are we so distant from the life and glory of our Saviour that we have to root around in the dung pile of Satan's ways to find relief from this world's ills?

I think what people are asking is how you are classifying such as such? And this is kind of a question I asked a few pages ago. That is, what is it about grass that makes it so sorcery? If it is the high, then how is a high from marijuana any different from a high from opium, cocaine, meth, or drunkenness? If it is the motive, then how can people be accused of sorcery when they are not seeking religious ascension by its usage? You seem to be honing in on weed, but wont say why, except it "opens portals." But what is so distinct about weed, shrooms, LSD, or peyote that make them any more passageways for the demonic than all other drugs/highs? Peter doesn't caution us only against hallucinogens, but against all intoxicating altering of the mind (or anything that would diminish control of our faculties.)

I think all of us are saying not being sober minded is off limits. Period, being high or being drunk is a sin. What is being conflicted is the idea that one can use whiskey to numb pain; opiates and cocaine derivatives, but somehow psilocyben or cannabinoid alternatives are off-limits; especially if prescribed, and taken with the same responsibility as the former? i.e. not desiring to get high, nor desiring religious usage, but as an remedy for an ailment.

I understand where you are coming from. Hallucinogens "feel" like you are traversing an ethereal realm. But are we really? Or, is it simply unique intoxications which differ according to the substance? Demons do not need chemicals to possess or oppress. All they need is Gods permission. If we are going to conclude that Revelation is talking about drug usage, (if any of them are permissible in a doctor prescribed medicinal sense), then it is talking exclusively about all recreational or religious use of all things that make you high/drunk, and not medical usage. We may be able to fool other people as to the "why" we are doing something. But we cannot fool God. And he will know the motives of our usage; and so will we, because it is very hard to lie to ourselves.

With that being said, I no more think someone thinking about using THC as a pain reliever should go to a dispensary, cop some nugs, and go home and pack a bowl to "medicate," any more than I think someone who broke their arm should shoot heroin. But, we do live in an age where genuine, pharmaceutical grade medications are made with both cannabis and opium derivatives, and as such, can be precisely prescribed. This is the usage I am thinking about. Not rolling a blunt every time you get a headache.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello, Dave,

Re "opium, cocaine, meth, or drunkenness", with the exception of cocaine, and I suppose one could include speed, opium and alcohol are in a different class altogether, in terms of how they are psychoactive. Coke and speed, may, as I've said, have an affect in those who also use the entheogens, as they can be mixed, or work in tandem.

Motive has nothing to do with it. If you get in a car and go to a certain city for business, is no different in terms of destination than if you went for a vacation. You arrive in the same place. Whatever the motivation when taking an entheogen / psychedelic, you arrive at the same place: in the realm of spirits, even if they don't reveal their presence.

I "hone in on weed" because it has become ubiquitous and many consider it legal despite the present Fed classing it as not. The sorcerous depths grass brings one into is certainly not as is the case with the other psychedelics, yet it does the job.

Here is the thing about weed (I do not know the experience of the far more potent weed of the present day) : it is a masterful deception by the satanic powers that gains many of its users simply by the intense pleasure and ease of mind and heart they experience, whose only motive is the pleasure and peace obtained. But the destination is the same: awareness in the spirit realm. The spirits may almost perfectly hide their presence, but their influence on a psychic and physical level remains. The motive is simply pleasure. But it is sorcery nonetheless. It does not always have to do with the "occult". I hone in on it because it is so widespread, yet nowadays considered just another harmless (or even beneficial!) enjoyment.

Unregenerate humankind is being groomed to be attuned to a particular spiritual wavelength. Grass is simply a basic staple to accelerate the process. The wine of Babylon is sweet to the taste, and poison to the soul.

Other sorts of intoxicants are beside the point I am making; yes, they are indeed dangers, but they are different dangers, in a different category.

There is a sophistication of deception in the "healing", "therapeutic" and "medicinal" uses of both grass, acid, mescaline, psilocybin mushrooms, ayahuasca, and substances with like properties, giving them an aura of legitimacy and goodness. This development is a masterpiece of deception. Whatever the motive, the destination is the same: openness — vulnerability — to the spirit realm. The effects of this vulnerability may differ; in some there is nothing untoward, i.e., noticeable, in others it may be mental or spiritual affliction, etc — but on the larger scale, the societal / cultural, besides the dramatic deterioration of the social fabric, there may be an incremental, subtle darkening of the governmental and institutional views of acceptable thinking and conduct, and on an even broader view, the relations between nations may so deteriorate as to usher in great and terrible wars. Not "newspaper exegesis", but cataclysmic upheavals.

"Genuine, pharmaceutical-grade medications" "precisely prescribed" give warrant that using these substances is okay.

And others who see this medical and governmental approval are given to think, no big deal, in fact it can even be good for you if done properly.

If only one's motives are clean it is permissible in the eyes of God, it is thought. But if there are distinct prohibitions in Scripture as to sorcerous drug use, that's another story entirely. The examples I've given are not sufficient re commentators and lexical info?

Thanks, Dave, for the thought-out responses you've given.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

No, we just have different definitions - I believe part of what makes sorcery the sin that it is would be the intent of the practitioner. You are claiming that use of marijuana et al regardless of intent leads to (or is) sorcerous activity.

I am choosing not to engage with your interpretation of Revelation - we have a history of being committed to different eschatological views, and our interpretations of Revelation are thus different. I do not, for example, believe drug-induced sorcery is the reason for the judgment of Babylon in Revelation 18.

Hello Andrew,

I have already (just above) responded to the view that intent or motivation is what makes sorcery a sin (no, it is not). As for our differing views on eschatology, I don't think that has a bearing on your views of Genesis 1:29 and your claims or theorizing on that.

Brother, have you considered the fact that many translations of the text do not arrive at the word "sorcery"? Are all of the Greek scholars and commentators behind the Geneva ("enchantment") or NAS ("witchcraaft") distorting Scripture in your view, or is it perhaps the case that there is a more general view (enchantment, sorcery, sorceries, witchcraft) of Babylon spiritually deceiving the nations in many ways (ie. not all caused by using drugs)? Again, do you believe Satan really has the ability to send his finite, limited demonic resources into the drug-induced brain of everyone who smokes pot?

However the versions translate pharmakeia the Greek meaning of the word remains; enchantment or witchcraft are legitimate renderings. It doesn't have a bearing on what I am saying. And yes, Babylon certainly does deceive the nations in ways other than its sorceries, but the specific deception of pharmakeia is a class of its own and a major cause of its judgment, as it is specifically written. Lying / deception is listed separately in Rev 21:8 and 22:15, so sorcery is not synonymous with deception, but surely may be a result of it.

You ask (rhetorically), "Again, do you believe Satan really has the ability to send his finite, limited demonic resources into the drug-induced brain of everyone who smokes pot?"

He is not called "the god of this world" for nothing (2 Cor 4:4), or has it said of him, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one" 1 John 5:19.

Underestimate the power and extent of his abilities — that which is granted him by the Sovereign One — ignoring the Scriptural data, and you make yourself vulnerable to error. Indeed his finite, limited demonic resources are greater than you seem to be aware of, from your statements.

But what does my (or anyone else's) personal experience have to do with whether or not marijuana use is a matter of Christian liberty, a gateway to the occult, etc.?

What it has to do with, is whether you experientially know about the topic you are propounding on, that being the properties of certain plants or substances you talk about. If you are not willing to be transparent regarding the matter of your knowledge, having spoken so much on it, that says something.

 

[Northern Crofter]

However, the views — theories — that Andrew holds forth about the acceptability of using marijuana as "God made all created things for our use (citing Genesis 1:29)", these theories have also been put forth in the "public domain" for all eyes to see, and that coming from a respected and sound Christian discussion board. Who knows how many will take Andrew's opinions to heart and "give grass a try"?

Too bad you didn't give your caution when Andrew was promoting his dangerous acceptance of marijuana, Matthew!

If Andrew does not want to make full disclosure of his "knowledge" re marijuana, fine, but he has already gone very far in influencing others to consider it acceptable practice for Christians.

This is pretty poor, brother. I would consider these public statements libelous. Nowhere have I promoted acceptance or use of marijuana. I am not sure how you possibly got that from anything I have written in this thread. Feel free to provide any quotes that support your accusation - I would be happy to walk back any such comments if that is how they are being interpreted.

What I have questioned is your assertion that all use of marijuana = an opening to the demonic. I am not concerned with personal experience - I am concerned that you are alleging a Biblical position based on a relatively particular and unique treatment of the Greek term pharmakeia. Can you provide a reference to any other commentator who believes pharmakeia and its cognates in Revelation is referring to people using drugs as an "opening one to the demonic realm"?

What I have asked (and you have not answered) is if you think marijuana in its current form was creational. You made a quasi allowance for medicinal purposes (no THC, not entering the bloodstream) but never really answered the question.

This seems to be a very big issue for you in multiple threads, and I fear your passion for the subject is clouding how you read people's contributions. I don't see any point in responding further when you seem more prone to hurl accusations than answer questions people have repeatedly asked you.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Elton John weighs in on the subject, making some surprisingly good points.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Andrew holds forth about the acceptability of using marijuana as "God made all created things for our use (citing Genesis 1:29)"

Just to be clear, I never said this - I am not sure where (or who) Steve is quoting from, but I am sure if someone can't find 2 or 3 examples (witnesses) to justify an accusation, then they are in danger of violating the 9th Commandment.

I have said this (bold emphasis not original):

Narcotics are drugs that produce insensibility or stupor due to their depressant effect of the central nervous system. I'm not sure how you can glorify God in such a state unless it is out of medical mercy or necessity.

I'm wary of saying that all uses of a particular plant are evil/sorcery/etc. Everything created on the third day was declared good and has a good use. Yes, it can also be abused, but it must have a good use by original design.

I don't use marijuana, nor do I believe its use "recreationally" is morally acceptable, but I don't see how all entrances of its chemical properties into the blood stream can be unequivocally stated to be sorcerous.

I'm not sure how using marijuana products for recreational purposes can be done in a way that brings glory to God, but I'm also not convinced it automatically introduces the user to a demonic realm.

No and no

Steve, it seems as if you feel that anyone who doesn't accept your view that any and all marijuana use that gets one "high" always opens one to the demonic realm is in grave error and approving of drug use:

"recreational highs" are a danger — due to opening one to the demonic realm....

If you don't see grass "opening one to the demonic realm — then no wonder you think as you do.

Any use of marijuana that gets one high is participating in sorcery.

The "high" — the elevated — awareness is precisely our consciousness having been lifted by demonic influence into the spirit realm.

while also suggesting that promoting your special God-given interpretation is on par with preaching the Gospel (my emphasis).

As Paul says, "Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Cor 9:16 NKJV), seeing as he was a persecutor of the children of God granted great grace; so for me, as the Lord rescued me out of such terrible depths with clear insight into what I (and many others) had done, I have an obligation to the Lord to communicate this to others. It is not "a passion" of mine — for I spend a lot of my precious time on this — but an obligation. I cannot just "write off" those caught up in what I have been given to expose. It would be a woe unto me.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

This seems a bit silly to me. The Hebrew translated "for food" means "for consumption." I don't eat tea leaves or chew coffee beans, but they are still something I ingest for their various properties. Regardless, marijuana and other drugs can be consumed in many forms, and the text simply and clearly says that all plants are given to us to consume.

This is a statement you made, and repeat. Yes, you are so ambiguous that it leaves wiggle-room to avoid being pinned down on it!

This is pretty poor, brother. I would consider these public statements libelous.

I have quoted the statement you made, though you continue to equivocate as to your meaning (and provide many examples of such), but still refer to it. Part of your equivocation is the use of the phrase "recreational purposes", seeking to distinguish that from other "legitimate" uses, such as therapeutic and medicinal, which I have replied to.

Just to be clear, I never said this - I am not sure where (or who) Steve is quoting from, but I am sure if someone can't find 2 or 3 examples (witnesses) to justify an accusation, then they are in danger of violating the 9th Commandment.

And when I do pin you down to the actual statement you talk around it, and then make charges.

Have you ever talked with your pastor about the view you have re Genesis 1:29-30 NKJV, and that even if consuming the plants that change your consciousness they are still good and of God — even if they have that effect?

The statement that I suggest my witness to the Biblical teaching on sorcery "is on par with preaching the gospel" is not true, for it is but one aspect of the warnings given us to avoid, or be subject to severe condemnation. The Lord did rescue me out of such depths with clear insight into what I (and many others) had done. I have an obligation to the Lord to communicate this to others. It is but a small part of the whole gospel.

You never did answer my question as to what the terrible sin of sorcery is in Gal 5:20-21, Rev 9:21, 18:23, 21:8, and 22:15. Can you not identify it?

Andrew, I would suggest you ask your pastor to read this thread to see what he would say.

I am sorry I have so offended you, but at the same time desire to rectify unclear and ambiguous statements on a very serious topic.

I would not object if the admins shut this thread down, as it seems we cannot proceed further productively.

 

[MarrowMan]

I, for one, would not like to see the thread closed as of yet. I’d much rather people exhibit maturity and recognize a good faith discussion is being engaged in here.

Andrew, if I understand you correctly, you are asking whether or not marijuana was part of the original creation and, if so, what would that mean concerning legitimate/illegitimate use, correct?