Controversy over outfit

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I'm sorry if I misrepresented myself! Please know I was not intending to accuse anyone of ill motives nor assuming thoughts or intentions! In fact, I started with a joke just to set my tone.
I think I get the joke now. It was humorous tongue-in-cheek implying that had the young lady wore a more revealing T-shirt, with bared shoulders, cleavage revealed, and tight clothes, there would be no one, at least the males, objecting.

Am I correct?

We need some kind of wink-wink smiley or one of those smiley's with the face showing some "not me" whistling to convey the humor intended.

Absent that, a winking ;)smiley or even a typed out [tongue-in-cheek] label would have clued some of us in.
 
TylerRay, just in reading your comments above, though, I might see the issue.
From the frozen image on the post it does look like her shirt is tight. When one watches the video it can be seen that it is, in fact, not tight. That might be the problem in perception here.
I'm sorry if I misrepresented myself! Please know I was not intending to accuse anyone of ill motives nor assuming thoughts or intentions! In fact, I started with a joke just to set my tone. Please allow me to rephrase:

Exclusively addressing the comment on the OP regarding Satan: The young woman's clothing was not anything that is customarily objected to from Christians, so I'm surprised anyone would voice a negative opinion about it. I find it wise to resist a critical opinion that makes myself feel like my behavior or my knowledge is superior, and I would recommend that attitude to others.

I'd posit that biblical modesty is a posture of the heart, not a tally of how much skin is showing.

P.S. Her shirt is definitely not what I'd consider tight by conventional standards. It's merely a junior cut.
Thank you for your gracious clarifications. I misread you, and I'm sorry for that. Thank you, also, for your note concerning the tightness of the shirt--judging by the image, I thought that it was skin-tight.

For my own part, although I'm not comfortable with a shirt that shows the belly, I was much more concerned about the tightness of the shirt.
 
On a side note, I wonder why this is:

Generally males deal more with lust of the eyes, but females wear tighter and more revealing clothing

Generally women don't deal with lust of the eyes as strongly, but men wear loser and less revealing clothing

It honestly sounds like things in the culture should be reversed or corrected if we really don't want each other to stumble as much.
 
I agree with what Bruce says about modesty.

Regarding this particular video... I think the song is beautiful and encouraging, the video is silly. I have no qualms about her attire, but I have a hard time believing that voice comes from that person.
 
I think I get the joke now. It was humorous tongue-in-cheek implying that had the young lady wore a more revealing T-shirt, with bared shoulders, cleavage revealed, and tight clothes, there would be no one, at least the males, objecting.

Am I correct?

We need some kind of wink-wink smiley or one of those smiley's with the face showing some "not me" whistling to convey the humor intended.

Absent that, a winking ;)smiley or even a typed out [tongue-in-cheek] label would have clued some of us in.

Well, I am truly bad at this — feeling like training wheels are needed! LOL

The joke was about the shirt being offensive because it was yellow. I did mean to say that normally what ppl complain about is shoulders or cleavage or tight clothing, not a two inch peek at a belly button.

Full disclosure: While I think it’s prudent to dress in what would be considered conservative by American standards in order to project a valuing of one’s body in a godly way, I do believe that should be the motivation rather than to prevent someone else from lusting. Young women have been taught the primary motivation should be in “not stumbling a brother,” which is not the correct application of that scripture. It is also an unproductive way of determining an appropriate style of dress, because what may “stumble” someone varies— if someone has an issue with lust it really doesn’t matter what the object in view is wearing— you can lust with your eyes shut. Plus, there isn’t any place in the Bible where we are responsible for someone else’s sin and I see problems with trying to instill that thinking. Solomon warmed his son numerous times to avoid the harlot, not to scold her about her dress. If we would teach both young men and women to honor God with their behavior AND clothing, it would produce greater results. In my humble opinion

Hoping that came across as gentle opinion and insight from one who has experience in the matter and not as confrontational.
 
It seems to me that many women would do well to be aware of how easily men (at least some men) can be provoked to lust.
 
It seems to me that many women would do well to be aware of how easily men (at least some men) can be provoked to lust.

Oh I’d hazard to say we women know that well— but it goes back to motivation: what do we really care about?

I taught my daughter to respect herself, represent her God, and be mindful what type of spouse you want (one who is attracted to your looks, your body, your mind, or your soul?)
I taught my son the same — as well as lust is a sin he would most likely have to deal with and to kill it, not tame it.

I still have yet to find where we can get biblical precedence for telling girls to dress so men don’t lust. Not only does it do a poor job motivating, it makes it the girl’s fault/sin if a man lusts — and no one is responsible for another’s sin.
 
I still have yet to find where we can get biblical precedence for telling girls to dress so men don’t lust. Not only does it do a poor job motivating, it makes it the girl’s fault/sin if a man lusts — and no one is responsible for another’s sin.
You’re unable to see a connection between the modesty (both in apparel and demeanor) Scripture enjoins on women, and how they dress? And unable to see a connection between a failure to dress modestly and thus playing a role in causing difficulty for a man?
 
In my opinion, it doesn't seem that we should exclude any reasons for motivation to godliness as long as they are biblical. Yes, we want to teach others about self respect, representing God, being holy because God is holy, not wanting to tempt someone to sin because the law of love would have us not to, etc.

My wife many years ago in her college days dressed in clothing a whole lot tighter than she does now. Back then, showing off her curves and body drew a lot of attention to her body by the eyes of men. I would see men checking her out and even hear them making comments. Now, she is very aware of those things and chooses to not assist in the depravity of men. And now that she gives them nothing to entice them and feed their flesh, she is much more respected and valued by even the worldliest of men. She just doesn't come across as someone who is a part of the world, so she's not treated like it. It's almost like she chooses to be the thermostat - people are influenced for the good when she adjusts herself for the good of others.
 
You’re unable to see a connection between the modesty (both in apparel and demeanor) Scripture enjoins on women, and how they dress? And unable to see a connection between a failure to dress modestly and thus playing a role in causing difficulty for a man?

Scripture enjoins women and men to be modest and to view their bodies as not their own, but the Lord's. (Modesty being kosmios: orderliness, moderation, good behavior and appropriateness....not just covering our lady parts well.)
Matt 5:28 is clear that the sin is looking upon a woman. I think in this day and age we need to depart from (to use a liberal term) "victim blaming" and put the onus where it belongs. While women should dress in a respectable manner with modesty and self-control (1 Tim 2:9), men have to stop using the Genesis 3 cop-out by saying it's the woman's fault. Teach both women and men to be responsible for their own thoughts and bodies -- Romans 12:1,2; 1 Cor 6:19-20, Phil 4:8, 2 Tim 1:7, 1 John 1:8, Col 3:2-5 all discuss this.
 
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Plus, there isn’t any place in the Bible where we are responsible for someone else’s sin and I see problems with trying to instill that thinking.
Sandra,

In my own denseness :oops:, have already misunderstood your earlier humor above, so I am hesitant to respond directly until I am certain I am understanding you.

What do you mean by "responsible for someone else's sin" above?

Do you think we are not going to be held to account—which is what responsibility presumes—for our actions that lead others to sin?
 
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I still have yet to find where we can get biblical precedence for telling girls to dress so men don’t lust.
Are you looking for an explicit verse "Dress appropriately so men will not be tempted to lust" or will not the full counsel of Scripture suffice?

I do think that within Scripture we find content concerning the matter such that one may deduce by good and necessary consequence that inappropriate attire/decoration can lead others, especially men, to lust.

For example, while the lists in the links below contain many verses not directly on point (some lists below are dynamically computer generated by whatever useful phrases are entered by the user), I do believe one is able to systematically draw up an argument from the available nuggets therein to dress wisely to avoid tempting others to lust:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/dress_like_a_harlot
https://www.openbible.info/topics/leading_others_to_lust
https://www.openbible.info/topics/causing_others_to_sin
https://www.openbible.info/topics/modest_dress

Lastly, not a few assume the stumbling-millstone passage containing Our Lord's comments about "children" strictly applies to actual children, ignoring the metaphorical shift that takes place in Mt. 18:5.
 
Are you looking for an explicit verse "Dress appropriately so men will not be tempted to lust" or will not the full counsel of Scripture suffice?

I do think that within Scripture we find content concerning the matter such that one may deduce by good and necessary consequence that inappropriate attire/decoration can lead others, especially men, to lust.

For example, while the lists in the links below contain many verses not directly on point (some lists below are dynamically computer generated by whatever useful phrases are entered by the user), I do believe one is able to systematically draw up an argument from the available nuggets therein to dress wisely to avoid tempting others to lust:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/dress_like_a_harlot
https://www.openbible.info/topics/leading_others_to_lust
https://www.openbible.info/topics/causing_others_to_sin
https://www.openbible.info/topics/modest_dress

Lastly, not a few assume the stumbling-millstone passage containing Our Lord's comments about "children" strictly applies to actual children, ignoring the metaphorical shift that takes place in Mt. 18:5.


I appreciate your kindness in addressing my post -- I wasn't being humorous, I do think that men who have a problem with lust should be taught to deal with it and discontinue blaming women, turning them into the reason for their own sin rather than taking thoughts captive and having self-control, both of which the bible requires believers. I also see that the bible teaches women need to be very mindful of the way they dress, but for much better reasons than because some men can't control their minds. There must be more than the issue of actual apparel regarding modesty; for example: in Mozambeque the women are topless -- to accuse them of enticing sin in another is obviously pointless since that is the cultural norm. Let's face it: a woman could be in a birka and a man can still have lustful images in his head of her. Jesus teaches us that it's the heart that's the problem.

I do believe this whole issue is part of the consequence of the original sin that put strife between the sexes - As Adam blamed the deceived woman for his sin rather than taking the blame himself (or, better yet, doing as our Lord and Savior did by not sinning and then taking His bride's punishment on Himself! Thank You, God, for the last Adam!)

But you have given me pause by the millstone text. I had understood that passage in Matthew (along with the Luke 17 passage) in context as primarily (although indirectly) concerning the pharisees and their teachings leading the people into works-based righteousness and ultimately away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ (since it's unbelief in Christ that casts people into the everlasting fire), and I still lean towards that teaching -- but with this conversation in mind I am persuaded to reevaluate.

I will look more closely at these passages and hopefully get back to you. Thank you for your kind demeanor and scripture suggestions. In the meantime, please consider my campaign to discontinue blaming women for men's sin and to teach our children to be respectful, god-fearing individuals responsible for their own behavior. Have a good day and God bless!
 
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I have never understood why, on the topic of modesty, so much emphasis is placed on women. Not to say ‘more’ isn’t required for women given what God teaches us, but there’s practically no emphasis on it for men and boys. Women struggle with lust too, just like women struggle with p0rnography. Yet men and boys are encouraged to go swimming or working on a hot day with no shirt on...or wear skinny jeans (lol)...

I also wonder on this double standard if Christian girls/women consider this and want to be treated fairly in the Christian society (congregation or what have you) they find themselves in and so tempted to dress less immodestly.
 
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Do you think we are not going to be held to account—which is what responsibility presumes—for our actions that lead others to sin?

I think that we Americans are hardened about what constitutes modest clothing. Based on my reading of the Bible I consider the photo in the OP as over the line. And my reasons have little to do with the weakness of men.

Verses like 1 Timothy 2:9-10 say nothing about the requirement of modest apparel being for the sake of the weakness of men. Often, outward appearance is something for God. (Deut 22:5) God who looks at the heart also notices our outward appearance, and we humans are limited to judging by outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7) –of course, I am speaking about more than clothing in the last phrase. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 11:10 says that wives (at least) "ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels." The good angels I should add. In 1 Peter 3:1-6 speaks of both outward and inward "adorning." What we wear tells a lot about our hearts (James 2:2-3), and God is watching.

Comments...
 
For what it's worth, I have approached this thread with humor, not because I think modesty is unimportant, nor because I approve of the aforereferenced apparel under question (i.e. - I wouldn't). Rather, in line with what Pastor Buchanan said earlier, it's a wonder that it would take up much time or space on our little discussion board here (that is, I question its profitability in relationship to effort attending defense/assertion). He said:
So, really the whole business comes down to this song/singer/video having a Christian label. Question the premise. Move on. Think about modesty in the small sphere where you can affect it in some meaningful way.
And I think that's good pastoral counsel. Really, it applies to most of the things -in my opinion - that seem to get the bulk of discussion on the Puritan Board. NO doubt, I have been party to such monumental wastes of one's personal time in the past, but have worked on not contributing to such for several years now. I generally think that if the best of our efforts/time were spent on "chewing the cud" of what has been taught, preached, sang in our Lord's Day services from week to week, few of us would have time to spend very much time on the PB from day to day.
 
I made that clear in my initial comment. Have you read my post?

Sure, but with all that commenting, I thought you might have looked at it at some point. Instead, we get the usual folks talking past each other.

Getting back to your question to me:

What exactly do you mean by the term 'sheltered?' I can't think how that term applies to me or to someone who merely pushes back at our culture's standard of dress.

I wouldn't have even noticed the outfit if attention hadn't been called to it in the original post. Someone who would find the brief glimpse of a belly button shocking is obviously sheltered and doesn't go to the beach, pool, zoo, or other places where folks congregate. (Based, of course, on the wrong assumption that I would be discussing this with folks who where making informed comments about the video.)

The top is neither sheer, nor tight. It is fitted. There are adequate foundation garments to to ensure that anatomical details aren't provided. It's not something that should draw a second glance at a mall or on the street.

Now, if one wants to talk of revealing, there are the portraits of Oliver Cromwell's wife and daughter and their contemporaries.
 
For what it's worth, I have approached this thread with humor, not because I think modesty is unimportant, nor because I approve of the aforereferenced apparel under question (i.e. - I wouldn't). Rather, in line with what Pastor Buchanan said earlier, it's a wonder that it would take up much time or space on our little discussion board here (that is, I question its profitability in relationship to effort attending defense/assertion). He said:

And I think that's good pastoral counsel. Really, it applies to most of the things -in my opinion - that seem to get the bulk of discussion on the Puritan Board. NO doubt, I have been party to such monumental wastes of one's personal time in the past, but have worked on not contributing to such for several years now. I generally think that if the bulk of our time were spent on "chewing the cud" of what has been taught, preached, sang in our Lord's Day services from week to week, few of us would have time to spend very much time on the PB from day to day.
I think, rather, that this is an important topic and hits home to where many of us live. My millennial, Christian, university-attending daughter and I have had many discussions about this, and she currently espouses much of the popular liberal/millennial thought on these things: including that if a young woman dresses in a way that bares much of her body and leaves little to the imagination, it’s still all on the guys to not have lustful thoughts. These young women even think if the guy has to avert his eyes, he must be a pervert. They don’t understand how men “work” (my daughter knows better but is currently enamored of some feminist thinking).

This discussion board has helped me understand how to live life better in many practical ways. It’s all theological, isn’t it? I guess the discussion underway could seem like a silly discussion, except that it’s important to Anna to think these things through; and also, the discussion has become not really so much about what the young lady in the video is wearing as about what the Scriptures teach about men and women, and what modesty means- biblical modesty will have practical applications, what are they?

However in regards to what the young lady is wearing in the video, which I did watch, I must say that the lighting plus the material the shirt is made of contributes to a clingy look; and that purposefully, I’d guess. That is part of what contributes to the discomfort about the video.
 
I think, rather, that this is an important topic and hits home to where many of us live. My millennial, Christian, university-attending daughter and I have had many discussions about this, and she currently espouses much of the popular liberal/millennial thought on these things: including that if a young woman dresses in a way that bares much of her body and leaves little to the imagination, it’s still all on the guys to not have lustful thoughts. These young women even think if the guy has to avert his eyes, he must be a pervert. They don’t understand how men “work” (my daughter knows better but is currently enamored of some feminist thinking).

This discussion board has helped me understand how to live life better in many practical ways. It’s all theological, isn’t it? I guess the discussion underway could seem like a silly discussion, except that it’s important to Anna to think these things through; and also, the discussion has become not really so much about what the young lady in the video is wearing as about what the Scriptures teach about men and women, and what modesty means- biblical modesty will have practical applications, what are they?

However in regards to what the young lady is wearing in the video, which I did watch, I must say that the lighting plus the material the shirt is made of contributes to a clingy look; and that purposefully, I’d guess. That is part of what contributes to the discomfort about the video.
I didn't mean to imply that a discussion of modesty is out of order. It's this particular circumstance of the video, mixed with its "Christian" nature, and with a person that none of us knows, that I think tends toward the unprofitability of it. Hence, Pastor Buchanan's admonition to point our best efforts toward our local spheres of influence. So, for example, by all means, having a thread on "How do we biblically define modesty" would be a good one. The it in my post was not in reference to the subject of modesty, but this video, this girl, etc. I hope that clarifies my point, and does not give the impression that I think such subjects are light matters.
 
I think the question about whether women are responsible for men's sin needs a very important distinction. Women are never responsible for the sin in someone else's mind. They can be potentially responsible for putting a stumbling block in front of someone else. A clear distinction between "stumbling block" and "being the cause of someone else's sin" needs to be made here. After all, a stumbling block could theoretically be laid down and no one stumbles over it, because no one happened to be present. The intention of the person laying down the stumbling block would still be sinful even if no one "fell for it." On the other hand, if a person does not intentionally or unintentionally lay down a stumbling block at all, and someone else falls into sin, there is no blame whatsoever attaching to the first person. So, to use the question at issue, if a woman were to dress with the intention of luring men to lust after her, and a man wound up falling into the sin of lust, the woman would not be guilty for his sin of lust, but would be guilty of her own sin of putting down the stumbling block. She would still be guilty of that sin even if no men happened across her path, because of her intent (a vitally important component of the discussion). On the other hand, if a woman is dressing entirely modestly with no thought whatsoever given to the question (or especially if she is dressing trying to discourage lust in men), and a man still lusts after her, she is no way guilty of sin at all. It is all on him.

I think this distinction is incredibly important. On the one hand, I hear women, even on this thread, who, while rightly concerned about women being blamed for men's sin, but because maybe this distinction is not being observed, are therefore tempted to think that the blame is all on the man for lust, and that there is no such sin as stumbling block creation. There most definitely is such a sin!

On the question of the Bible and modesty, the Bible mentions it and advocates it, but does not define what precisely constitutes it. We can say certain things. 1. Revealing the body parts of procreation is immodest. 2. Revealing enough for the sake of luring a person into lust (whether man to woman or woman to man) is immodest. 3. Context and intention are important. 4. Exact quantity of skin revealed is less important than other considerations. If you were a Jewish male in a concentration camp watching the Germans command all your Jewish sisters to undress, would you find their state tempting to lust? I think not. Outrage would be the most likely result. Life is more important than clothes. So there is a possible example of where even the state of nakedness is not necessarily "immodest" in the sense of intent. There, shame and victimhood come more to the fore. Similarly, a person who might be said to be fully dressed acting like a prostitute would still fall foul of immodesty, which is not just a question of how much a person is wearing, but also must include the intentions of the heart, and the attitude that the person is adopting with regard to the people around them.
 
The question that comes to my mind as I read all the comments since I last posted, is akin to what Joshua said above about a definition, only my question would also factor in: why are we making a connection between women dressing immodestly and men lusting? And before any men jump at that as a ridiculous statement, let’s ask: Does the Bible make that specific assertion? Is the reason why God mentions modesty because of a man’s tendency to lust? Again, no “it’s obvious” opinions, but are there any absolutely specific bible verses? I think of examples like Dinah and nothing was said about her dressing immodestly.

I can find scriptures, even those provided yesterday by TylerRay, to indicate all believers should be modest. And kosmios (modesty) is defined as: orderliness, moderation, good behavior and appropriateness. (So a bikini on the beach in Hawaii would fit that description, but a bikini on 5th Ave NYC wouldn’t.) But the reasons are not due to preventing lust but rather to honor God.
 
I think the question about whether women are responsible for men's sin needs a very important distinction. Women are never responsible for the sin in someone else's mind. They can be potentially responsible for putting a stumbling block in front of someone else. A clear distinction between "stumbling block" and "being the cause of someone else's sin" needs to be made here. After all, a stumbling block could theoretically be laid down and no one stumbles over it, because no one happened to be present. The intention of the person laying down the stumbling block would still be sinful even if no one "fell for it." On the other hand, if a person does not intentionally or unintentionally lay down a stumbling block at all, and someone else falls into sin, there is no blame whatsoever attaching to the first person. So, to use the question at issue, if a woman were to dress with the intention of luring men to lust after her, and a man wound up falling into the sin of lust, the woman would not be guilty for his sin of lust, but would be guilty of her own sin of putting down the stumbling block. She would still be guilty of that sin even if no men happened across her path, because of her intent (a vitally important component of the discussion). On the other hand, if a woman is dressing entirely modestly with no thought whatsoever given to the question (or especially if she is dressing trying to discourage lust in men), and a man still lusts after her, she is no way guilty of sin at all. It is all on him.

I think this distinction is incredibly important. On the one hand, I hear women, even on this thread, who, while rightly concerned about women being blamed for men's sin, but because maybe this distinction is not being observed, are therefore tempted to think that the blame is all on the man for lust, and that there is no such sin as stumbling block creation. There most definitely is such a sin!

On the question of the Bible and modesty, the Bible mentions it and advocates it, but does not define what precisely constitutes it. We can say certain things. 1. Revealing the body parts of procreation is immodest. 2. Revealing enough for the sake of luring a person into lust (whether man to woman or woman to man) is immodest. 3. Context and intention are important. 4. Exact quantity of skin revealed is less important than other considerations. If you were a Jewish male in a concentration camp watching the Germans command all your Jewish sisters to undress, would you find their state tempting to lust? I think not. Outrage would be the most likely result. Life is more important than clothes. So there is a possible example of where even the state of nakedness is not necessarily "immodest" in the sense of intent. There, shame and victimhood come more to the fore. Similarly, a person who might be said to be fully dressed acting like a prostitute would still fall foul of immodesty, which is not just a question of how much a person is wearing, but also must include the intentions of the heart, and the attitude that the person is adopting with regard to the people around them.

Greenbaggins, I applaud your post!

And I wish we had specific scriptural references to back up your four points, but I agree with them.

And what about the girl dressed immodestly according to someone’s definition, but her intention is to be fashionable, not to entice lust? It’s a very objective thing.

Also how does the example of Jesus as a stumbling block— and He knew it— but never sinned, fit in?
 
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If a daughter came down for family breakfast wearing that pajama-shirt, I'd probably send her back to get dressed. Public? No way.
 
Sandra, I think I would answer that not all stumbling blocks are created equal. Jesus is a stumbling block to many people. But why is that? Is it because Jesus was intending to lure people into sin? I think not. On the other hand, Isaiah 6 must be kept in mind as well. There is a certain amount of mystery here, where we may not be able to parse out everyone's motives to everyone's satisfaction. We can say that if Jesus is a stumbling block to people (and He is), it is not because of any sin on Jesus' part. Therefore the stumbling block aspect of what He did and who He is must have some key differences with the sinful stumbling blocks we have been talking about. I don't find it easy at this point to parse the exact differences. Maybe others with more acuity in this area can do better.
 
Another difficult aspect to this discussion is just how unwilling most women are to be honest about their desire to make men view them sexually.

They want to play both ends: have total deniability and plausible innocence, excusing and projecting their attitudes onto the men, meanwhile enjoying their power over a man's mind or gaze.

We have a discussion about the hearts and minds of each sex, but only one is generally forthright.
 
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Sure, but with all that commenting, I thought you might have looked at it at some point. Instead, we get the usual folks talking past each other.

Getting back to your question to me:



I wouldn't have even noticed the outfit if attention hadn't been called to it in the original post. Someone who would find the brief glimpse of a belly button shocking is obviously sheltered and doesn't go to the beach, pool, zoo, or other places where folks congregate. (Based, of course, on the wrong assumption that I would be discussing this with folks who where making informed comments about the video.)

The top is neither sheer, nor tight. It is fitted. There are adequate foundation garments to to ensure that anatomical details aren't provided. It's not something that should draw a second glance at a mall or on the street.

Now, if one wants to talk of revealing, there are the portraits of Oliver Cromwell's wife and daughter and their contemporaries.
In the interest of, dare I say, answering you according to your folly, I went ahead and took a look at the video. I stand by my original post. The shirt is way too skimpy. Any Christian man should be ashamed to allow his wife or daughter to leave her bedroom wearing that. And yes, the things that most women wear to the beach, pool, or wherever, are inappropriate and unnecessarily provocative and revealing. We live in a culture that is obsessed with sex, and it shows up in the way that women (and men, increasingly) dress.
 
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