Daniel 11 views

[arapahoepark]

What are some views on Daniel 11 and what have you found the most convincing? The first part highlights what Antiochus IV did, but the later part does not match him. I have heard views like: Antiochus did do the rest mentioned (probably a faulty interpretation), a future antichrist has yet to fulfill it, nero/Roman emperors have fulfilled it, etc.
Hope to hear some insightful answers!

 

[Peairtach]

Very difficult to say. Very mysterious.

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods (Dan 11:36, KJV)

compare with

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.(II Thess 2:3-4,KJV)

Is the personage in Daniel 11:36-45, the same personage that is mentioned by the Apostle in II Thessalonians? or just a similar personage?

Antiochus IV Epiphanes is being used as a type. Is it the type of a paticular individual or a particular class of individuals that make their appearance on the stage of history from time to time? The Antichrist or antichrists. Or simply those who oppose Christ and His people fiercely, even although they're not pretending to be Christian.

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain (Dan 11:45a, KJV)

compare with

so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.(II Thess 2:4b, KJV

I would tend to view the II Thessalonians passage as referring to the Papacy, as the Man of Sin, Son of Perdition and the Antichrist, as per the original WCF.

If the "celibate" Papacy is at all in view, then the proper translation of Daniel 11:37 might be important. It might be important for further elucidation of this mysterious passage, anyway, even if the Papacy isn't in view at all:

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. (KJV)

He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. (NKJV)

Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.(ASV)

He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.(NASV)

He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. (NIV)

He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. (ESV)

Which is the correct translation, if it is possible to determine? The ESV/NIV or the others? Maybe someone with more knowledge of the original tongues and texts can help us.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

The chapter covers a long period of time, and the personages vary. The kings of north and south are powers and conflicts that swirl around the people of God sandwiched between worldly powers that seem to have all the power and might, while God's people have nothing.

From vv21-35, I interpret the northern king as Antiochus IV. Afterward, that subject is Rome. In this I agree with Calvin, though differing with him somewhat on particular detail.

The basic idea in ch.11 is that God is already aware of the events of the coming five centuries, long before they happen. Which shows that he is still in charge of history, regardless of how things look to people on the ground. The people of God will not be "in charge" of their own destiny, in earthly terms, all during this time down to the end of the Days of Indignation, v36 (which will be followed by Days of Grace). To survive, they must "hunker down," while the tides of the fortunes of Empires roll back and forth over them, and in the eyes of the world they are ignored, or despised. The secret is that God has not forgotten them, the whole time; but the world is being prepared for Messiah's arrival. Only Messiah can bring an end to the Indignation, the era that began with the Exile.

And when they do not stay humble, but seek to become more important in the world, and be "movers and shakers" (see v14 for example), this will only work against them. By creating a higher profile for the Jews, they only succeed in becoming a target for world powers like a furious and shamed Antiochus (vv32,34). Better to be a nobody on the world stage, than try to be somebody again in your own strength. God has no intention of letting them come back to strength, and certainly not while the Days of Indignation continue. The Chosen People are still under judgment, though some of them are happily permitted to return to Judah.

Ch.12 is simply the answer to ch.11. There will be days of triumph for God and his people. He will triumph over all earthly power. This chapter (like many OT Messianic texts) telescopes the first and second coming of Christ. His final triumph comes into view as that which vindicates his cause. God's people must be patient in faith and trial, until the resurrection, v2.