Ecumenical Service

[scottmaciver]

The churches seem to be rapidly deteriorating across Scotland at an alarming rate. I came across this letter from the Baptist minister in Stornoway criticising an ecumenical service to be held involving a Church of Scotland minister, a Free Church minister and a RC Priest.

ecumenical church service

How are we, being in agreement with the content of the letter, to respond to this ecumenical service?

 

[VictorBravo]

With an amen? Or, is your question asking how one responds to the ecumencial services instead of the letter?

 

[scottmaciver]

Sorry I should have been clearer in my post. Being in agreement with the content of the letter, how are we to respond to the ecumenical service?

 

[jwithnell]

I tend to agree. Were it a service among reformed congregations where there are, perhaps, a few difference of opinion, I wouldn't have any problem. In fact, I'd encourage it. But to bring the RC in as equal brothers in Christ, this is a serious error. I'm not saying that no Christians are RC. In fact, given the scriptures song/read in the liturgy, I believe a few may come in spite of the RC church. But as a church, they "preach another gospel which is not gospel at all."

 

[Rufus]

Pray about it, work against it, I won't worry to much as one Free Church minister is like one PCA minister here doing something along the same lines i.e. its not ultra-common.

 

[Romans922]

1) 'worshipping' with Roman Catholics...as Presbyterians I'd be rolling in my grave if I had one. We are protestants protesting the Roman Catholic heresies (Gal. 1:8-10).
2) celebrating a pagan holiday or holy day other than the Lord's Day. God commands to worship according to one holy day, the Lord's Day. I would have though CoS and FCS would've been more in line with that, the FCS moreso.
3) This one action completely contradicts their confession.

 

[Craig.Scott]

First of all hello Scott. I am a member of Glasgow RP. I believe you are the same Scott who is friends with Murdo Campbell?

I am in full agreement with the Pastor. I take scriptures take on this:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
(Galatians 1:6-9)

Now what action does one take? Well i for one would compose a leaflet that explains why ecumenism with Rome is wrong. Write in a loving and biblical manner and pray the brothers and sisters who attend will realise the blapshemy of Rome. With the Romanists i would preach the gospel and pray they are saved.






In Christ

 

[dudley]

ecumenism with Rome is wrong...period!

First of all hello Scott. I am a member of Glasgow RP. I believe you are the same Scott who is friends with Murdo Campbell?

I am in full agreement with the Pastor. I take scriptures take on this:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
(Galatians 1:6-9)

Now what action does one take? Well i for one would compose a leaflet that explains why ecumenism with Rome is wrong. Write in a loving and biblical manner and pray the brothers and sisters who attend will realise the blapshemy of Rome. With the Romanists i would preach the gospel and pray they are saved.


In Christ

I say Amen to Craig and the others...ecumenism with Rome is wrong...because the Roman catholic church teaches a false Gospel and makes a blasphemy of the true message of salvation. To have a service with a Rominist Papist priest is a paradox and a contradiction completely. Rome is not only worng she subverts the truth and leads people away from the truth..I know I was at one time a Roman catholic and I am now by the grace of God a Reformed Protestant. I would preach the true Gospel to Romanists and try to convert them to the Reformed faith.....but this type of service is wrong..do not attend is my recommendation.
Galatians 1:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

The Romanists teach horrible heresies.Roman Catholic doctrines are not right. They directly contradict the scriptures. The Roman Catholic religion teaches multitudes to pray to "Mary" instead of in the name of Jesus. It calls its Mary "the Queen of Heaven". In Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44, the Queen of Heaven is revealed to be a devil. The Roman Catholic institution says that our precious Lord Jesus is turned into a little cracker (the Eucharist) when the priest speaks certain words at the "mass". This is a very great blasphemy. Many Catholics possess and pray to little statue idols that they call "saints" when the Bible says do not make unto thyself any graven image (Exodus 20:4). They light candles for the dead, bow before relics (e.g., a dead man's finger) and believe in a fictional purgatory that they try to pay their way out of--more money for the coffers of the "church". I am an advocate of evangelizing Roman Catholics to the truth. I am convinced that God is condemning Roman Catholicism and wants those of us who know the truth to bring others to the truth.But we do not bring them to the truth by joining with their priests who teach a false Gospel. I renounce openly Roman Catholicism and have openly renounced her and her teachings and I am anti roman catholic because she is a false church and leads so many to despair.

The most horrible statement in the article was:“Protestant Reformation” was a gigantic mistake to be repented of now!...what an abominable statement. the Protestant Reformation was not only necessary it was inspired by God to bring the true Gospel back after 1000 years or Romanist corruptions.

I do think that ex roman Catholics like myself who are now protestants (15 Million of us in the United States alone) are more authentically protestant than many cradle Protestants because we searched for and found the truth like the reformers of the 16th century. I also think that the reasons and the principles of the Protestant reformation have not been taught to many cradle Protestants in recent years perhaps in the name of Ecumenism which I think was a detraction by Rome to subvert again the truths of the glorious Protestant Reformation.

Roman Catholics are taught and I also believed that the Protestant Reformation was a rebellion solely against authority of the Roman magesterium and the pope. I left the Roman catholic church at first as a rebellion against papal authority and what I saw as abuse of that authority. However as I studied the Protestant Reformation and Protestantism I began to see another picture. I began to understand the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura and began to see that being Protestant was not just a protest but a stand for the truth of the Gospel alone and the authority of scripture alone. I now believe as a Presbyterian that we Protestants should dare not compromise the Gospel by sweeping the Reformation under the rug. The Gospel is too important."

 

[scottmaciver]

Dudley,
Thanks for your post. Unless I misunderstood your own post, I'm wondering if you're misreading the ministers letter? He himself isn't of the view that the reformation is a 'gigantic mistake to be repented of.' Rather he is asking the ministers of the other churches to oppose this ecumenical service, otherwise by their silence they are in practice conveying the message that the reformation was a gigantic mistake.

Your recommendation of not attending the service is without question correct. My post was really in relation to how we who are fully oppossed to the service should respond? Again sorry if I didn't make myself clear on that.
I don't think a lot of people who are within the conservative congregations would even consider attending but the danger is that nothing is said and over time the distinction between the RC Church and the Reformed churches is gradually eroded and the younger generation are not taught to recognise the RC church for what it is. I think the ministers letter is a worthwhile letter which calls ministers of the other churches to account. They claim to be reformed but are they willing to stand against the tide and practice what they profess?

Incidentally,there has been a letter posted in response, http://www.hebrides-news.com/ecumenical-service-231111.html

 

[scottmaciver]

Craig,

Good to hear from you, Murdo had mentioned you were in college with him.
If you're ever up in Stornoway make sure & pop into the church.

A leaflet sounds like an interesting idea. Also a pretty appropriate text

Scott

 

[Moireach]

1) 'worshipping' with Roman Catholics...as Presbyterians I'd be rolling in my grave if I had one. We are protestants protesting the Roman Catholic heresies (Gal. 1:8-10).
2) celebrating a pagan holiday or holy day other than the Lord's Day. God commands to worship according to one holy day, the Lord's Day. I would have though CoS and FCS would've been more in line with that, the FCS moreso.
3) This one action completely contradicts their confession.

Yeh that's the stage the FCS are at just now though. They've moved away from their confession without actually moving away from it, on several issues. Rather than officially moving from full subscription to the WCF and cause major controversy, they just lie. About 7 years ago a Free Church minister was disciplined for having a Carol service. Last year there were carol services, nativity plays and the like right left and centre.

In terms of ecumenism, the first time a FCS minister was ever involved in one was I think only a few years ago, but he got away with it. Then last year a FCS minister welcomed the Pope to Scotland and said he was a Christian brother on Radio Scotland. Now a minister from the most conservative presbytery in Scotland is getting away with this. Very sad, it's one less Scottish denomination standing up against these things. FP, FCC, RPCS and perhaps APC still remain. But as Scott is saying, how do we respond?

 

[Craig.Scott]

Hi Scott,

I'm coming up January 12th to 17th. It would be good to have a felowship. And i'll be worshipping, Lord willing, with the brethren in Stornaway Reformed Presbyterian Church. I met Martin Campbell at the Glasgow induction and he was telling me all about Stornaway so very much looking forward to coming up and meeting everyone.

Moireach there were Reformation services in Glasgow & Hamilton where the RCC was co-organiser. I have witnessed at these sort of events before. The only reason i do this is because i have a concern for brothers mixing with the antichrist, and the RC's because they are in need of Christ.

I create my own leaflets but also use Richard Bennet and John Gresham (sp?) leaflets on Roman Catholicism. When witnessing at these ecumenical events you need to be really on the ball, know why you are there. If you can do it in a loving manner you will still be called a bigot.

If you need any help whatsoever, especially in prayer, i'll do all i can. If you wanted to discuss it over the phone PM me.

I do not think we can remain silent, as you say it dilutes the differences and presents a "we're all brothers together" public mentality.





In Christ

 

[Romans922]

1) 'worshipping' with Roman Catholics...as Presbyterians I'd be rolling in my grave if I had one. We are protestants protesting the Roman Catholic heresies (Gal. 1:8-10).
2) celebrating a pagan holiday or holy day other than the Lord's Day. God commands to worship according to one holy day, the Lord's Day. I would have though CoS and FCS would've been more in line with that, the FCS moreso.
3) This one action completely contradicts their confession.

Yeh that's the stage the FCS are at just now though. They've moved away from their confession without actually moving away from it, on several issues. Rather than officially moving from full subscription to the WCF and cause major controversy, they just lie. About 7 years ago a Free Church minister was disciplined for having a Carol service. Last year there were carol services, nativity plays and the like right left and centre.

In terms of ecumenism, the first time a FCS minister was ever involved in one was I think only a few years ago, but he got away with it. Then last year a FCS minister welcomed the Pope to Scotland and said he was a Christian brother on Radio Scotland. Now a minister from the most conservative presbytery in Scotland is getting away with this. Very sad, it's one less Scottish denomination standing up against these things. FP, FCC, RPCS and perhaps APC still remain. But as Scott is saying, how do we respond?

David, are you an elder? Are you a member of this congregation or one of the congregations participating? How do you relate to the churches participating? I'd like to 'respond', but I'd have to know those things first. Also do you have a book of church order (link)?

 

[Moireach]

1) 'worshipping' with Roman Catholics...as Presbyterians I'd be rolling in my grave if I had one. We are protestants protesting the Roman Catholic heresies (Gal. 1:8-10).
2) celebrating a pagan holiday or holy day other than the Lord's Day. God commands to worship according to one holy day, the Lord's Day. I would have though CoS and FCS would've been more in line with that, the FCS moreso.
3) This one action completely contradicts their confession.

Yeh that's the stage the FCS are at just now though. They've moved away from their confession without actually moving away from it, on several issues. Rather than officially moving from full subscription to the WCF and cause major controversy, they just lie. About 7 years ago a Free Church minister was disciplined for having a Carol service. Last year there were carol services, nativity plays and the like right left and centre.

In terms of ecumenism, the first time a FCS minister was ever involved in one was I think only a few years ago, but he got away with it. Then last year a FCS minister welcomed the Pope to Scotland and said he was a Christian brother on Radio Scotland. Now a minister from the most conservative presbytery in Scotland is getting away with this. Very sad, it's one less Scottish denomination standing up against these things. FP, FCC, RPCS and perhaps APC still remain. But as Scott is saying, how do we respond?

David, are you an elder? Are you a member of this congregation or one of the congregations participating? How do you relate to the churches participating? I'd like to 'respond', but I'd have to know those things first. Also do you have a book of church order (link)?

No I'm a 20 year old member. The two denominations involved are FCoS and CoS. I'm a former member of the FCoS, so not directly involved.

It concerns us though for two real reasons. One is we have only very recently left the FCoS, we have many friends and family still in it and we still despair to see it taking this route for the first time in its history. The other is that this is on an island which has always been untouched by anything like this. This island has been virtually 100% reformed in the past and the only reason there even is a priest on the island is by incomers. The island's churches are virtually all WCF subscribing, with few exceptions in the minority, and ecumenism with RCs is brand new to the island, and would have been absolutely unthinkable even 10 years ago.

 

[JonathanHunt]

Interesting. I know Pastor Keith Baker and have preached at Stornoway Baptist Church in 2010. It is sad that it is down to the 'new' church in town to point out the deep error involved. I am surprised that the FCoS on Lewis would be involved at all.

 

[Romans922]

1) 'worshipping' with Roman Catholics...as Presbyterians I'd be rolling in my grave if I had one. We are protestants protesting the Roman Catholic heresies (Gal. 1:8-10).
2) celebrating a pagan holiday or holy day other than the Lord's Day. God commands to worship according to one holy day, the Lord's Day. I would have though CoS and FCS would've been more in line with that, the FCS moreso.
3) This one action completely contradicts their confession.

Yeh that's the stage the FCS are at just now though. They've moved away from their confession without actually moving away from it, on several issues. Rather than officially moving from full subscription to the WCF and cause major controversy, they just lie. About 7 years ago a Free Church minister was disciplined for having a Carol service. Last year there were carol services, nativity plays and the like right left and centre.

In terms of ecumenism, the first time a FCS minister was ever involved in one was I think only a few years ago, but he got away with it. Then last year a FCS minister welcomed the Pope to Scotland and said he was a Christian brother on Radio Scotland. Now a minister from the most conservative presbytery in Scotland is getting away with this. Very sad, it's one less Scottish denomination standing up against these things. FP, FCC, RPCS and perhaps APC still remain. But as Scott is saying, how do we respond?

David, are you an elder? Are you a member of this congregation or one of the congregations participating? How do you relate to the churches participating? I'd like to 'respond', but I'd have to know those things first. Also do you have a book of church order (link)?

No I'm a 20 year old member. The two denominations involved are FCoS and CoS. I'm a former member of the FCoS, so not directly involved.

It concerns us though for two real reasons. One is we have only very recently left the FCoS, we have many friends and family still in it and we still despair to see it taking this route for the first time in its history. The other is that this is on an island which has always been untouched by anything like this. This island has been virtually 100% reformed in the past and the only reason there even is a priest on the island is by incomers. The island's churches are virtually all WCF subscribing, with few exceptions in the minority, and ecumenism with RCs is brand new to the island, and would have been absolutely unthinkable even 10 years ago.

Since you are not a member of the FCoS or CoS I'd say there is little you can do actively. You certainly should go talk to your pastor and elders about your concerns of these other congregations. You should definitely pray.

But don't be so surprised by a complete change in direction of individual congregations or even denominations. If you read Genesis 6:1-5, you see the quick change from one wrong choice on the part of godly men marrying ungodly women and desiring to have great children --> their lines were completely wicked. Judges accounts for in one generation godly households and then the next generation completely wicked. Don't be surprised...but pray that God would bring these leaders out of their sins. But also be on guard and pray in your own context that your leaders and future leaders won't do the same thing...

 

[Moireach]

Interesting. I know Pastor Keith Baker and have preached at Stornoway Baptist Church in 2010. It is sad that it is down to the 'new' church in town to point out the deep error involved. I am surprised that the FCoS on Lewis would be involved at all.

Oh have you? That's interesting. They're pretty unknown, I don't know anything about them.
Well I wouldn't say that though, he's written a letter to a website and that's great, but the vast majority are just as disgusted as Rev Baker and would do the same thing. It's just that well, not many know about it yet, and then there's little you can actually say publicly. You don't want to go to the papers or anything and most wouldn't fancy writing a letter to a website.

Yeh well it is very surprising, and once again the vast majority in the FCoS will be disgusted. I don't know if any other FCoS minister on the island would do it, perhaps only 1 or 2. But it's a very big problem that those FCoS ministers who are disgusted don't bring him to task.

 

[scottmaciver]

Here's a recent update on this situation on Hebrides News. The matter was brought up at the Presbytery:
TV ecumenical church service

Any thoughts?