Ergun Caner Gets a New Gig

[Grimmson]

I agree with the financial slight of hand by the SBCV through grants and scholarship Damon. But techically speaking isnt Tomas Road suppose to have oversight on the college/seminary?

 

[Notthemama1984]

While SB Conservatives of Virginia might not literally hand over cash to Libertty, they provide scholarships specifically for Liberty students, that do indeed come out of the cooperative program in Virginia.

I see what you are saying. I was not thinking about scholarships.

 

[torstar]

It's a tragedy that the DrErgunCaner page videos were taken down from youtube.

Best spoof of all time, even had him on the grounds of Liberty for a few of them.

 

[Damon Rambo]

I agree with the financial slight of hand by the SBCV through grants and scholarship Damon. But techically speaking isnt Tomas Road suppose to have oversight on the college/seminary?

That's true. So I guess in a round about way, there is oversight. I just meant that the SBC does not have oversight, the way they have over, say, Southern Baptist Seminary in Kentucky.

 

[Grimmson]

I agree with the financial slight of hand by the SBCV through grants and scholarship Damon. But techically speaking isnt Tomas Road suppose to have oversight on the college/seminary?

That's true. So I guess in a round about way, there is oversight. I just meant that the SBC does not have oversight, the way they have over, say, Southern Baptist Seminary in Kentucky.

Yes, but Thomas Road is an SBC church.

 

[Damon Rambo]

HEY! Someone just pointed this out to me...

Ergun Caner is famous for being violently anti-Calvinist. He is majorly synergistic...yet check out Arlington's statement of faith, which is decidedly NOT synergistic...

Enriching the Mind, Inspiring the Heart

"We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; that in the new birth the dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God; that the new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but wholly and solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life."

How is THAT supposed to mesh with Caner, who called Calvinists (who he describes as people denying man's free will in choosing salvation), "worse than Muslims"?

 

[Herald]

Damon.

I'm not sure that quote supports a monergistic view of salvation. It mentions the power of God (which synergists would agree with) but the language of divine election. To it's credit it does seen to come down on the side of Lordship Salvation.

sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.

 

[Notthemama1984]

"We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; that in the new birth the dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God; that the new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but wholly and solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life."

I know of Arminians who could affirm this in good conscience.

 

[Damon Rambo]

"We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; that in the new birth the dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God; that the new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but wholly and solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life."

I know of Arminians who could affirm this in good conscience.

Really? Even with the "nor by the will of man" statement, and the "fruits" of faith and repentance? I have to study Arminianism more, I guess. I always thought that Arminians believed faith is a choice, not a result of the work of God in a person. I know that is what Caner believes, having heard him say it...

How can a Synergist deny the will of man's part in salvation? What is the second part, if not man's will?

 

[Notthemama1984]

The Arminian will say that the will of man cannot cause or create the new creation. It is completely an act of God. The will of man merely asks God to bring about that new creation.

For Arminian theology, I highly recommend Olson's Arminian Theology. It has cleared up many misconceptions I had about Arminianism

 

[Damon Rambo]

The Arminian will say that the will of man cannot cause or create the new creation. It is completely an act of God. The will of man merely asks God to bring about that new creation.

But is that not specifically denied by the statement that the rebirth itself "secures" our voluntary obedience to the gospel? They have the rebirth preceding acquiescence to the gospel, and faith; it would seem a Synergist would be hard pressed to fit free will into that statement.

For Arminian theology, I highly recommend Olson's Arminian Theology. It has cleared up many misconceptions I had about Arminianism

Thanks. I will have to get that...as painful as it will be to read.

 

[torstar]

The less one is anchored to a church that requires knowledge and adherence to confession and creed, the more you will be set adrift dealing with people who change their theology to suit the immediate environment (and they are not always trying to be deceitful.)

 

[Notthemama1984]

But is that not specifically denied by the statement that the rebirth itself "secures" our voluntary obedience to the gospel? They have the rebirth preceding acquiescence to the gospel, and faith; it would seem a Synergist would be hard pressed to fit free will into that statement.

The Arminian will say that prevenient grace must preceed faith and regeneration. Without this gracious act of God, man could never ask God to bring about this new creation.

Now don't get me wrong. I think the Arminian has serious flaws, but in the end they could affirm the quote you provided.

 

[Damon Rambo]

But is that not specifically denied by the statement that the rebirth itself "secures" our voluntary obedience to the gospel? They have the rebirth preceding acquiescence to the gospel, and faith; it would seem a Synergist would be hard pressed to fit free will into that statement.

The Arminian will say that prevenient grace must preceed faith and regeneration. Without this gracious act of God, man could never ask God to bring about this new creation.

Now don't get me wrong. I think the Arminian has serious flaws, but in the end they could affirm the quote you provided.

I understand that, brother. But it doesn't say it "grants a possibility" of accepting the gospel, which would be true of 'prevenient grace.' It says it "secures" obedience to the gospel. Also, we cannot confuse prevenient grace with being born again. The statement above clearly states that one must be born again in order to have faith, and submit to the gospel. Would not Arminians say that one must have prevenient grace, in order to believe, and that then one would have faith and be born again?

Not trying to argue; just trying to better understand.

Also: after doing some research, apparently Arlington Baptist College has actually been criticized for "Calvinist" views (even "hyper" Calvinism). This was one of the driving forces in starting the "International Baptist Fellowship International" ; a split off of the WBF

 

[Notthemama1984]

understand that, brother. But it doesn't say it "grants a possibility" of accepting the gospel, which would be true of 'prevenient grace.' It says it "secures" obedience to the gospel. Also, we cannot confuse prevenient grace with being born again. The statement above clearly states that one must be born again in order to have faith, and submit to the gospel. Would not Arminians say that one must have prevenient grace, in order to believe, and that then one would have faith and be born again?

Arminian will have:

Prevenient grace brings us to a point of faith (solely a work of God)
Man exercises faith (a work of man)
The Spirit responds to this faith regenerates us and secures our obedience (solely a work of God).

I am sure that some Arminian could nit pick the quote, but a vast majority would accept it and drive on.

 

[Damon Rambo]

understand that, brother. But it doesn't say it "grants a possibility" of accepting the gospel, which would be true of 'prevenient grace.' It says it "secures" obedience to the gospel. Also, we cannot confuse prevenient grace with being born again. The statement above clearly states that one must be born again in order to have faith, and submit to the gospel. Would not Arminians say that one must have prevenient grace, in order to believe, and that then one would have faith and be born again?

Arminian will have:

Prevenient grace brings us to a point of faith (solely a work of God)
Man exercises faith (a work of man)
The Spirit responds to this faith regenerates us and secures our obedience (solely a work of God).

I am sure that some Arminian could nit pick the quote, but a vast majority would accept it and drive on.

I am not saying that some Arminians would not simply "accept it and drive on" from a spirit of ecumenism and theological laziness. Yet the quote nevertheless is clearly at odds with Arminianism, placing the new birth before faith and repentance. It is also clearly at odds with what Caner himself has taught and preached.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I am not saying that some Arminians would not simply "accept it and drive on" from a spirit of ecumenism and theological laziness.

I don't think it is out of ecumenism and theological laziness. It is out of a clear conscience. I think you are reading your Calvinism into the quote. I believe the quote leans monergistic, but is vague enough that a synergist could agree in good faith.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Just as a side note, a friend of mine at seminary follows Ergun Caner's twitter feed and apparently Dr. Caner tweeted this morning that everyone should get a trumpet and blow it at 6pm just to upset the atheists. What? So we should somehow lend credence to a crackpot just to annoy atheists? And isn't Dr. Caner a good dispensationalist? If so, then wouldn't he believe in a silent rapture? Just wondering if he even knows what he believes.