Is One Forgiven Without Repentance?
- Thread starter Hippo
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Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
I mean that forgiveness is not necessarily dependant on repentance.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
As Christians our sins are forgiven through the substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross. Through the blood of Christ we are forgiven.
As Christians we sin and as such we either repent or we do not. This may be deliberate or we may just forget about a sin, in doing so we do not endanger our salvation. If Christ died for our sins than such sins are forgiven absent an requirement for repentance.
I think that this is uncontraversial and would be universally accepted.
The confusion is perhaps whether before we are "born again" we are required to repent in order to be saved.
The answer to this is in my mind clearly no, in the same way that we do not need to do "works" to be saved. However in the same way if we are saved we will do good works and we will repent. Repentance is a fruit.
As Christians we sin and as such we either repent or we do not. This may be deliberate or we may just forget about a sin, in doing so we do not endanger our salvation. If Christ died for our sins than such sins are forgiven absent an requirement for repentance.
I think that this is uncontraversial and would be universally accepted.
The confusion is perhaps whether before we are "born again" we are required to repent in order to be saved.
The answer to this is in my mind clearly no, in the same way that we do not need to do "works" to be saved. However in the same way if we are saved we will do good works and we will repent. Repentance is a fruit.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
I would not in so much as one is a cause (Gods gift of faith) and one is a fruit (repentance).
There is also the point that I made that individual sins do not have to be remembered and repented of, this would apply to both initial faith and during sanctification.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
Presumbably "the diligent use of the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation" refers to use of the sacraments that God requires of us, but it would not be orthodox to believe that the use of such sacraments was required for forgiveness.
We are also told that faith without works is dead but likewise it is not orthodox to say that forgiveness requires works.
I am not saying that there is no connection between repentance and forgiveness, but in the context of the original post if we have an abberent theological view (i.e. baptismal regeneration) we are not as Christians required to repent of that sin in order to be forgiven. Likewise to receive salvation we do not have to remember or identify all our sins.
What is your definition of 'repent'?
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
I think that we may just be straining at definitions, the original question surrounded the assertion that "if a person places their faith in their baptism and not Christ alone. Like any other sin it can be repented of and forgiven".
My point was that it is not necessary to repent of an incorrect theological position to be forgiven. Most of us expect to see what we would call unrepentant (if inconsistent) arminians in heaven in spite of their theology. I would not say that they will be damned due to their failure to repent.
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
I've seen many teachers use the verses of Hebrews 6 and the concept of committing "known sin" as a club to argue otherwise, yet life does not break down into such simplistic options. Everyone understands and thinks through their own filter, and "known" has many relativities and branches to it's tree, and mercy applies to them as well as to us for our impairment in these areas. But, I understand and agree with your point, Mike.
I certainly hope that we do not need to be error free in our theology in order to be forgiven. Think of all those poor souls in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century who didn't even have a completed canon!
However, I do think a soul is in serious danger if he does not repent when convicted of sin by the HS through the Word of God.
I think I now understand why you consider repentance a 'fruit', but I have to disagree. The idea of repentance is grounded in the OT idea of 'turning back to the Lord'. In this sense, faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin (as mentioned earlier). You cannot have faith in Christ unless you also turn from your idolatry. You have not truly turned from idolatry unless you have faith in Christ.
This kind of repentance is a gift and not a fruit.
Repentance desribes the quality of the fruits but is not the fruit itself.
Repentance chased me to faith. I needed to be reconciled to God. Regeneration allowed me to see my sin first, and that brought about the desire for Repentance which made me run from my sin. In my desire to forsake sin I needed a place to run to. I found that in Christ. He is my reconciliation to God. My faith was clearly activated when I learned of Him while reading the scriptures in a Navy Barracks back in October of 1981.
christianyouth
Puritan Board Senior
What verses indicate that repentance is a fruit of faith?
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
I think that I have perhaps been loose in my terminology here.
My point was limited to an observation that we do not have to identify (or even recognise) an error in order to be forgiven of that error. The early Church fathers went to their graves with a near unanimous belief in baptismal regeneration and I am sure that we expect to see a goodly number of such folk in heaven.
As we continue in our Christian lives we will discover areas in our lives (be that moral or thological) that we find to be sinful and we will be lead to repent from such sin, this is part of the process of sanctification and can properly be referred to as one of the the fruits that we would expect to exhibit as we grow in the faith. Such repentance is not though in any way the grounds on which we are forgiven.
It is a Roman doctrine that we must confess (and repent of) each sin to maintain our salvation.
I also recognose that when we receive the gift of faith from God this gift is also inextricably linked to a similiar gift of repenatance, the two cannot be seperated. The quality of this repentance is however distinct from a need (or indeed evan an ability) to continually recognise and repent of individual sins.
Thank you for the clarification.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Repentance is not saying sorry for each identified sin, but the supernatural dethroning of the old man (circumcision of the heart). It is the gift of God and is as much part of redemption as believing.
Both repentance and believing happen via the channel of faith - the old man is given to Christ (repentance) and Christ is received (believing).
Without this process, the flesh (old man) still reigns in the heart, the person is still God's enemy, and no matter if he says sorry for all his sins, he's still headed for destruction.
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Repentance is not saying sorry for each identified sin, but the supernatural dethroning of the old man (circumcision of the heart). It is the gift of God and is as much part of redemption as believing.
Both repentance and believing happen via the channel of faith - the old man is given to Christ (repentance) and Christ is received (believing).
Without this process, the flesh (old man) still reigns in the heart, the person is still God's enemy, and no matter if he says sorry for all his sins, he's still headed for destruction.
I have heard of people denying "duty-faith" but fewer deny repentance to be saved.
I give an amen to those that remind us that is is impossible to repent of each and every sin, so that all of us who go to heaven will go to heaven forgiven for sins that we were not even mindful to repent of. I guess a blanket desire and prayer and attitude of "Lord forgive me for all my sins; the ones I know of and the ones I don't know of..." is key.
Is it possible to agree that repentance in general is needed for final salvation but not repentance of each and every sin? Or that the person is forgiven rather than the sin is forgiven, such that when one is forgiven there is nothing more to repent of because all their sins are gone in a flash because the person himself was counted righteous?
I give an amen to those that remind us that is is impossible to repent of each and every sin, so that all of us who go to heaven will go to heaven forgiven for sins that we were not even mindful to repent of. I guess a blanket desire and prayer and attitude of "Lord forgive me for all my sins; the ones I know of and the ones I don't know of..." is key.
Is it possible to agree that repentance in general is needed for final salvation but not repentance of each and every sin? Or that the person is forgiven rather than the sin is forgiven, such that when one is forgiven there is nothing more to repent of because all their sins are gone in a flash because the person himself was counted righteous?
The new creation (Christ's seed-1Jn 3:9) has no sin - he is the one to be clothed with a new body one day, spotless on the inside and out. He is the inheritor of eternal life. He has never sinned.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The old man, the one who sinned, will be finally destroyed. The wicked have only the old man, and go as such to hell.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
christianyouth
Puritan Board Senior
Not to detract from the topic, but does anyone know why a lot of Law/Gospel people believe that repentance is a fruit of faith? Do they have some verses that they think teaches this?
Dr. Gill on 1Jn 3:9
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
and he cannot sin;
not that it is impossible for such a man to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin; for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor actings of it; sin is in them, lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them: nor does the phrase intend any particular single sin, which cannot be committed; though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, or denying Christ to be the Saviour of sinners, and a sacrifice for sin, and hatred of a Christian brother as such, and sinning the sin unto death, or the unpardonable sin; neither of which can be committed by a regenerate man: nor is the meaning only, though it is a sense that will very well bear, and agrees with the context, that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does:
but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it, or be done by it; it is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit of God; it is a good work, and well pleasing: in the sight of God, who is of purer eyes than to behold sin with delight; and an incorruptible seed, which neither corrupts nor is corrupted; and though it is as yet an imperfect work, it is not impure: the reason of the impeccability of the regenerate man, as such, is
because he is born of God:
for that which is born of God in him, does, under the influence of the Spirit, power, and grace of God, preserve him from the temptations of Satan, the pollutions of the world, and the corruptions of his own heart;
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
and he cannot sin;
not that it is impossible for such a man to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin; for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor actings of it; sin is in them, lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them: nor does the phrase intend any particular single sin, which cannot be committed; though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, or denying Christ to be the Saviour of sinners, and a sacrifice for sin, and hatred of a Christian brother as such, and sinning the sin unto death, or the unpardonable sin; neither of which can be committed by a regenerate man: nor is the meaning only, though it is a sense that will very well bear, and agrees with the context, that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does:
but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it, or be done by it; it is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit of God; it is a good work, and well pleasing: in the sight of God, who is of purer eyes than to behold sin with delight; and an incorruptible seed, which neither corrupts nor is corrupted; and though it is as yet an imperfect work, it is not impure: the reason of the impeccability of the regenerate man, as such, is
because he is born of God:
for that which is born of God in him, does, under the influence of the Spirit, power, and grace of God, preserve him from the temptations of Satan, the pollutions of the world, and the corruptions of his own heart;
Brother, you have confused me and I am certain others are as well.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
It would be useful if you would inform me what you find confusing as there has been quite a lot of clarification provided.
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