Von
Puritan Board Sophomore
What's that?
Kenneth Gentry post millennialism
- Thread starter RJ Spencer
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Jaymin Allen
Puritan Board Freshman
Did Gentry ever complete his Revelation commentary project? I used to donate to that work in 06-08.
meanderingwanderer
Puritan Board Freshman
Latest update was in July, saying he thought it would be out by the end of the year.
Hopefully, Jesus will return before then!
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Professor
Anyone care to define what "optimistic amil" really means? Classic amil – per Beale, Hendriksen, Dennis Johnson, Engelsma, etc – means that the church will become increasingly purified as it goes through persecution and adversity (for it will also suffer the same judgments / calamities the general culture will), and much chaff will be separated from the wheat as things get painful. In her suffering faithfulness and loyalty to Christ, the church will partake of His glory. The cultures of the world, apart from momentary reversals, will darken as the god of this world (small g) thinks to establish his vile kingdom, and to eradicate his Rival's people, globally.
Many have thought the name amillennialism poorly conceived, but it means no literal (i.e., premil) millennium. Present millennialism would also suffice.
Just as Christ Jesus triumphed over death through death – and resurrection – so shall we. Classic amil is optimistic about the church growing in purity and in glorious likeness to her husband and king.
Not really sure what other kind of optimism amils can hold to. Nor am I sure what Gentry thinks the postmil millennium will look like if it has no "golden" aspect to it.
Many have thought the name amillennialism poorly conceived, but it means no literal (i.e., premil) millennium. Present millennialism would also suffice.
Just as Christ Jesus triumphed over death through death – and resurrection – so shall we. Classic amil is optimistic about the church growing in purity and in glorious likeness to her husband and king.
Not really sure what other kind of optimism amils can hold to. Nor am I sure what Gentry thinks the postmil millennium will look like if it has no "golden" aspect to it.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I am not amil but I agree with every word of the above.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Steve, when I've used the term, I've meant a person who embraces an idealist reading of Revelation and believes that the majority of the world will be converted before Christ's return.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
What camp would you see yourself in these days, Jacob?
What's a good book for optimistic amil, Tyler? I recently purchased William Milligan's Revelation commentary, haven't yet begun it- any others?
Post Mil view this in same light also it would seem.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Yes, you could say that it's a variety of postmillennialism or of amillennialism. The terminology can get somewhat muddled.
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
I found Rushdoony's book, Thy Kingdom Come, helpful. Warfield's essay "The Millennium and the Apocalypse" is good. I'd also recommend Todd Russell's scripture readings through Revelation.
I know that Rushdoony and Warfield are typically classified as postmillennialists, but they both held to an idealist reading of Revelation.
I've wanted to get Milligan for a long time.
Charismatics have a type of this also, as in Kingdom Now/Dominion theology.
Thanks for those recommendations. Milligan is $1 for Kindle on Amazon!
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I've been prewrath premil for about 3 years now. I was historic premil for the previous 5 or so.
What is prewrath view?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
We are raptured between the revealing of the Antichrist and the pouring out of the wrath of God.
http://www.alankurschner.com/
That would be mid trib position, as least as explained to me, as they hold to the Antichrist and wrath coming forth mid trib time.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
It's not mid trib. Mid trib is mid trib. Prewrath happens at a specific time (which isn't in the middle of the tribulation)
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Professor
Here are two discussions on Amillennialism and Idealism (with much reference to Milligan and his views, and also BB Warfield's), although it started as a postmil talk:
Postmillenialism: An Eschatology of Hope
And then the sequel:
Revelation: inspirational drama of poetic symbols, or multi-genre prophecy?
They're long, but maybe edifying and interesting to students of these things. The discussions involved many people, but with regard to aspects of Idealism mostly between MW (Rev Matthew Winzer) and myself. We here at PB suffer loss not having MW grace our discussions at this time. I learned a lot from having to oppose him—it was an education!
[I was once "prewrath premil" as Jacob says of himself now. A man by name of Marvin Rosenthal wrote a book by that title. But I changed to amil back in the late '80s or early '90s.]
Postmillenialism: An Eschatology of Hope
And then the sequel:
Revelation: inspirational drama of poetic symbols, or multi-genre prophecy?
They're long, but maybe edifying and interesting to students of these things. The discussions involved many people, but with regard to aspects of Idealism mostly between MW (Rev Matthew Winzer) and myself. We here at PB suffer loss not having MW grace our discussions at this time. I learned a lot from having to oppose him—it was an education!
[I was once "prewrath premil" as Jacob says of himself now. A man by name of Marvin Rosenthal wrote a book by that title. But I changed to amil back in the late '80s or early '90s.]
RJ Spencer
Puritan Board Freshman
As an optimistic Amill I believe that biblical Christianity will become the largest world religion, but I do not expect a political takeover.
Gentry does believe in a "golden age" he just doesn't agree with some post Mills that claim that the golden age will last the entirety of the millennium nor that it will b a literal thousand years.
I believe all of the things that a postmill believes except I don't believe in Any pre second Advent golden age. Optimistic Amillennialism is best explained in the parable of the mustard seed. We view the tree that the mustard seed grows into to be Christianity, but we disagree with the post Mills because it is clear that it isn't the Only tree in the garden.
Do main difference is postmil sees culture and society transformed by Gospel, while you see it more that individuals are changed?
RJ Spencer
Puritan Board Freshman
That's a good way of putting it. Yes, that and the golden age would be the differences.
RJ Spencer
Puritan Board Freshman
The reason is because I do not believe that all Christians will vote the same way. Some are conservative and have no problem with morality laws; but some are more libertarian and see no point in passing morality laws when those laws have no effect on making people moral. Restrictions on abortion would obviously not be included here as a morality law, we all would like to see infanticide done away with. Laws are unnecessary for those that obey the law, and they are ignored by criminals.
Seeking_Thy_Kingdom
Puritan Board Sophomore
Interesting. I am Amill and really would like to be more optimistic about the future, but I do not see that in Scripture. Personally I do see the Church growing, but not in a straight incline and facing increasing persecution. The Church rises and falls as the persecution rises and falls, resulting in a purification effect, until an climax of evil and then Christ returns.
How do you see the tribulation and the birth pangs in the Olivet Discourse?
RJ Spencer
Puritan Board Freshman
I believe that tribulation will occur throughout the church age, but most of the Olivet discourse has already occurred (AD70). I don't believe it will be a straight incline either, I believe that tares will always be among the wheat. I think we agree that persecution, when it occurs, always ultimately leads to a strengthening of the church. I also think that the great apostasy is going on now, but that apostasy is obviously not real Christians leaving. I think that apostasy began during the second great awakening, which largely was Not a true awakening.
In fact, does anyone know if there is a book about the second awakening being false? I know I've read some JMac where he questions it.
Seeking_Thy_Kingdom
Puritan Board Sophomore
Sounds like we are very similar, I also hold to a pre-AD 70 dating of Revelation.
My eschatology is the last big chunk of my theology I am still figuring out, perhaps I am reading my own pessimism into the Text.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Jacob has had more positions on eschatology than Melania Trump has had pairs of shoes.
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