Massage Therapy

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I like Chi..............no.......wait I like that spicy tea Chai! Sorry!:)

But does Chai have chi? Or does simply drinking it promote a belief in chi? Best be careful here.

Seriously ... my wife loves the stuff. Tea. Any tea. Green, orange, yellow, black, whatever.

But being a caffeine addict I have to have my boost. I once went without it for a few days and was ready to turn into an ax murderer. I was definitely NOT in a harmonious mood. :smug:
Get your wife some Chai! My wife likes tea too, Chai is Indian and has all these Spices in it. I don't like the taste (I am a coffee dude anyway) but it smells really good...........like pumpkin pie! :2cents:
 
Chai is just the generic word for tea in Russian and probably some other languages. It does not denote a special kind of tea, despite what the marketing folks tell you.

Remember, chai = tea.

I have been helped by a good massage! I am VERY careful my wife and I get a "couples" massage. We are both in the same room, same time. Just a little caution. Otherwise, my back has really been helped before!

So now I'm confused. I was operating under the assumption that massage was actually treating a diagnosed condition. What is the point of "couples massage"? I mean people don't do couples colonoscopies, do they?
 
Chai is just the generic word for tea in Russian and probably some other languages. It does not denote a special kind of tea, despite what the marketing folks tell you.:lol:
I have been helped by a good massage! I am VERY careful my wife and I get a "couples" massage. We are both in the same room, same time. Just a little caution. Otherwise, my back has really been helped before!

So now I'm confused. I was operating under the assumption that massage was actually treating a diagnosed condition. What is the point of "couples massage"? I mean people don't do couples colonoscopies, do they?
Well there Hippie Calvinist...........I trust you to be the colon expert here.:lol:
 
I think we may have a marketing hit here: heart surgery for couples; endoscopy for couples. There's practically no limit!
 
Who did it? The Good Samaritan! I think that probably shows it was not uncommon in Jesus' time.

So?

Not everyone has the same conditions, Kevin, or the same economic possibilities

But everyone faces the same spiritual dangers. Your wife may engage in acupuncture while someone else may consult a horoscope. Let us pray the Lord to protect both.

and has as good a probability of being effective, with a lower probability of unwanted side effects, than any other treatment we've been able to investigate. And yes, she has been to a wide range of conventional doctors, none of whom have been able to help her.

Pragmatism.
 
Incidentally, just to be quite clear: I reject the premise that seeking acupunctural treatment is submitting to either pantheism or rationalism. I submit to Christ: but I do not see in His word, where using acupuncture as a medical treatment would be treason to His cause.

One can never use acupuncture as a mere medical treatment. The religious philosophy must be accepted. (Or one lapses into the philosophy of pragmatism.) It'd be like saying, "I engage in Tarot cards for the benefit, but reject its philosophy." Which is why we have things like 1 Corinthians, or the pastoral epistles, etc.
 
Incidentally, just to be quite clear: I reject the premise that seeking acupunctural treatment is submitting to either pantheism or rationalism. I submit to Christ: but I do not see in His word, where using acupuncture as a medical treatment would be treason to His cause.

One can never use acupuncture as a mere medical treatment. The religious philosophy must be accepted. (Or one lapses into the philosophy of pragmatism.) It'd be like saying, "I engage in Tarot cards for the benefit, but reject its philosophy." Which is why we have things like 1 Corinthians, or the pastoral epistles, etc.

But what if one doesn't believe in "chi" and is helped by accupuncture? I, along with others, just can't see the connection. My conscience isn't bothered by it. I am straining to find religious connections, but can't, so why isn't it wrong?

And if you say "pragmatism," then why doesn't that equally apply to Tylenol? And don't say "because tylenol doesn't have the eastern philosophy behind it;" remember, I don't accept the eastern philosophy of "chi."

And if you say that "tylenol has been scientifically proven to help _________," then I reply why must everything we do physically be simultaneously verified by science? Science is not an unchangeable, neutral standard, nor are scientists always reliable.

In short, I would engage (I don't in real life because I don't need to) in accupuncture with a clear conscience to the glory of God.
 
Chai is just the generic word for tea in Russian and probably some other languages. It does not denote a special kind of tea, despite what the marketing folks tell you.

Remember, chai = tea.


Indeed, same or similar word in Arabic, Persian, Portugese, Chinese, Malasian, Hindu, etc. It's an old word.
 
Pastor Kevin,

Sticking pins in their elbow and earlobe is certainly not something a person would normally do, except they were mentally sick. OTOH, if it could be shown that sticking pins in odd parts of your body somehow promoted simultaneous healing in corns and hemorrhoids because of electrical stimulation, that's fine. Just don't tell me that such problems exist because my chi is out of whack.

For whatever its worth I do not use acupuncture nor do I have any desire to do so. However what I have been saying all along is this: I see no reason not to believe acupuncture works in a manner similar to the ‘electrical stimulation’ you describe. Again, the fact that pagans may ascribe the practice to ‘chi’ or other superstitious beliefs does not of itself make the practice wrong. Surely then it would boil down to the individual practitioner and how he described what he was doing instead of the blanket condemnation you seem to be making?

As an additional comment, the fact that sticking pins into your elbow and earlobe is a symptom of mental illness may well be a reasonable opinion, but it is still merely an opinion. I see nothing in the bible that would paint the act of sticking pins into your body for medicinal reasons as either sinful or foolish. If by trial and error or some other process one were to discern that there was a genuine positive effect on health, how would we condemn it with the bible? The issue simply seems to be proving it can be done without pagan trappings. Proving its validity by modern western science might be nice, but is hardly necessary for a christian to partake in good conscience.

Radiation, magnetism, electricity are part of God's creation. They are reality. If it can be shown that chi is real, then I will resort to Taoism (I never liked Confucius). But the Word of God stands firm. Hence chi is a false religious belief and acupuncture works by the power of suggestion. Or perhaps acupuncture works due to nerve paths in the body. Either way the truth is known and the Christian can glorify God.

Firstly, I do not see that you have proven that a belief in ‘chi’ is in and itself contrary to the word of God. Is there anything in the bible that says it is pagan to believe that there are energies that operate in the human body? No, there is no need to believe these energies are a ‘life force’, but why would it not be possible that invisible energies that exist similar to radiation, magnetism, electricity etc operate within the body and can affect its health?

Eating meat from the Corinthian market was simply a way of showing that the idols to whom such meat was sacrificed, didn't really exist. The only reason to refrain from engaging in such practice was to keep from offending a less-mature brother's conscience.

I guess I do not see the difference you draw between the use of acupuncture and eating idol meat. Both were physical actions (eating meat vs putting needles in your body) that had become overlaid with pagan philosophy. Paul said that unless you were in a situation where you were being identified with the pagan philosophy (ie eating in the temple itself or other situations) you were free to partake.

Then one must ask: Are there superior ways to restore damaged function than sticking needles in people? If so, why not use them instead? Why would one want to stick with acupuncture ... other than it's hip, counter-cultural, and different? It's much easier, cheaper, and more effective for me to take a baby aspirin and an allopurinal than to regularly visit a quack who'll chant mumbo-jumbo, stick me with needles, light cigars and wave them around claiming the smoke enhances the chi.

Instead of magic, give me a pill. Or an injection. Or do surgery if necessary.

But with respect, isn’t that just your bias against acupuncture that makes you condemn it as ‘stupid’ in comparison to western medicine? If someone wants to stick needles into his body because of a sober belief that it will help his health, the bible does not condemn that anywhere that I can think of. And I do not feel you have proven that such a practice must always be linked to paganism.
 
One can never use acupuncture as a mere medical treatment. The religious philosophy must be accepted. (Or one lapses into the philosophy of pragmatism.) It'd be like saying, "I engage in Tarot cards for the benefit, but reject its philosophy." Which is why we have things like 1 Corinthians, or the pastoral epistles, etc.

I guess this is the gist of the disagreement in this thread.

However, your proposition that 'one can never use acupuncture as a mere medical treatment without accepting the religious philosophy', isn't it just your opinion? I don't see how you have proven it from the bible. Tarot cards are for a purpose condemned in the bible as witchcraft (fortune telling or divination). Acupuncture is not.

I would repeat again my argument that if one were to discover to trial and error that inserting needles into certain parts of the body had health benefits, there is no sin in that. Your response in this thread seems to be that unless we can prove and explain the phenomenon by western science we have lapsed into pragmatism. Again, you have asserted this, but where is it stated in the bible?
 
Okay, thank you for all your help. As it stands now as far as helping people at church I got permission from the ladies in charge of the women's ministry about teaching massage to the women at church during the meetings we have once a month. Not all the stuff we learned at massage school, just some moves and helpful information.
 
Kevin, I didn't see your reply until tonight. I echo Jacob and Mark that I still don't see the connection you're drawing; that I can engage in acupuncture with a good conscience; that the relation of philosophy and medicine seems to me to be a great deal more subtle than what seems to be a rather simplistic equation that Western=scientific=Christian; that if something works in God's world for its intended purpose without idolatry that it must function on a principle created by God; that in any case I believe it has been shown at least enough to warrant giving it a try that acupuncture has a measurable and explicable effect upon the nervous system; that it is legitimate to seek treatment for medical conditions, and extraordinary conditions sometimes call for extraordinary treatments; and that people stick needles in their body all the time when they have an illness -and they even put a fluid in with them!
 
I think messages and acupunctures are fine. Love to get a massage. Only have done acupuncture a few times and to be honest I didn't feel any different. Now does that mean it doesn't work, no, it just didn't do anything for me. Work medical coverage paid for it so what the heck why not try it.
As far as feeling uncomfortable about going to either of these, a way to get over that is share the gospel when you are there. Ask them about what they believe, or if they go to church. If you are getting a message it's usually an hour. That's a long time to be able to share the good news of Jesus Christ with someone. Strike up a simple conversation and ask them a hypothetical question that if they died today and found themselves standing before God and He were to ask them why should He let them into Heaven, what would they say? You might be surprised at some answers. You can then begin to share the gospel.



Just a thought.
 
Okay, thank you for all your help. As it stands now as far as helping people at church I got permission from the ladies in charge of the women's ministry about teaching massage to the women at church during the meetings we have once a month. Not all the stuff we learned at massage school, just some moves and helpful information.

Sounds like a great idea. Just out of curiosity, how did you come to that decision?
 
Okay, thank you for all your help. As it stands now as far as helping people at church I got permission from the ladies in charge of the women's ministry about teaching massage to the women at church during the meetings we have once a month. Not all the stuff we learned at massage school, just some moves and helpful information.

Sounds like a great idea. Just out of curiosity, how did you come to that decision?



Initially, it was when I thought about teaching a friend of mine and her sisters how to do massage so they could better help their families. After thinking about that for a while I remembered that we have women's get togethers once a month during the year where the first half is spent learning something like making pie crust, growing herbs, cooking with herbs, pretty much anything that would be of interest to women. And the second half is spent in Bible study. Learning some massage ought to fit right in. I hope that answers your question, if not let me know :-)
 
Okay, thank you for all your help. As it stands now as far as helping people at church I got permission from the ladies in charge of the women's ministry about teaching massage to the women at church during the meetings we have once a month. Not all the stuff we learned at massage school, just some moves and helpful information.

Sounds like a great idea. Just out of curiosity, how did you come to that decision?

Initially, it was when I thought about teaching a friend of mine and her sisters how to do massage so they could better help their families. After thinking about that for a while I remembered that we have women's get togethers once a month during the year where the first half is spent learning something like making pie crust, growing herbs, cooking with herbs, pretty much anything that would be of interest to women. And the second half is spent in Bible study. Learning some massage ought to fit right in. I hope that answers your question, if not let me know :-)

Yes, that answers my question. I was just curious. I think you are right. It seems like it would fit in very nicely with what you already do. If I were part of your group, I would love to learn a bit of massage.

On a side note, I like the idea of spending part of the women's fellowship time learning to make/do something in addition to a bible study. It would be especially nice here in Okinawa as we attend a very international church. We could learn so much from many of the Filipino and Okinawan women and vice versa. Do you mind if we borrow your idea?
 
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