Men with supernatural powers

[TimV]

Aaron's rod ate up something. I am assuming that the text implies there was a material substance eating up another. I guess we can conclude that Moses and Aaron were dispelling just figurative things but I tend to doubt it. Especially since the text seems to be clear. By Faith I believe the scriptures as Hebrews speaks about. You can dispel by your scientific mind if you want.

Randy one must be careful of the KJVOnly type attitude that says "You either agree with me or call God a liar" Besides, it's pretty basic theology that only God can create life. Those guys didn't, as you will concede after a moment's thought. Perhaps they paralysed the snakes and disguised them a rods, I'm not sure, but about the only think we can definitely rule out is that they didn't create live snakes out of dead wood.

 

[JP Wallace]

"Satan Cast Out" by Frederick S. Leahy is an excellent resource in relation to this subject. Prof. Leahy writes from a Reformed perspective and deals with demonology and its manifestations etc.

Amazon.com: Satan Cast Out: A Study in Biblical Demonology (9780851512341): Frederick S. Leahy: Books

 

[Phil D.]

Randy, I did not say that the magicians did not produce actual serpents.

Really? You sure seemed to here,

...Aaron's rod which had become a serpent then swallowed the illusory serpents of the magicians...

seemingly supernatural events are called lying wonders

Yes, but lying (or "false"), especially in the broader context here, is not necessarily the same as "fake."

 

[TimV]

Phil surely you don't think those magicians created live snakes from dead wood? Isn't God alone the giver and maker of life?

 

[Phil D.]

Phil surely you don't think those magicians created live snakes from dead wood? Isn't God alone the giver and maker of life?

I believe the text means exactly what it says.

 

[TimV]

I guess someone will have to start another thread dealing with whether or not others besides God can create life!

 

[Skyler]

So, umm. What's the difference between the magicians in Pharaoh's court and stage magicians today, then? Or is there a difference?

 

[Damon Rambo]

Only God can create life from scratch. But from existing material, and the proteins and organic matter already in the wood? Even men can do that! (Anyone seen how the scientists made silicon cells a few years ago, from existing DNA?) It is kind of silly to say that man can do it, using ordinary means, but not Satan/demons, using supernatural means. If Satan can zap him and our Lord to a High mountain (during the temptation), why would he not be able to do such a thing? The staff already contains God created building blocks of life!

 

[Phil D.]

Only God can create life from scratch

Or as put in theological terms, "out of nothing" (ex nihilo).

 

[Rom]

As Damon states - if Satan can transport himself and Jesus, then it is possible that he could be able to "beam out" the staff and replace it with a snake. Pure speculation of course - but then I've watched too much Star Trek

No need to create life from wood even!

 

[Dwimble]

I think it is too easy to read "trick" into the magician/serpent passage when you are presupposing that nothing supernatural can happen except by God's direct hand. But what does the passage say?

Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.

To say that Aaron's action was supernatural but the magicians' wasn't is to latch on to one word in the passage..."secret," and to impose the sole meaning of trick, illusion, etc. onto that word. But I don't see any reason to do that. The passage doesn't say that they "appeared to become serpents," but that the magicians "did the same" as Aaron and that their staffs "became serpents." It is described exactly the same as Aaron's staff. Further, it doesn't simply state that Aaron's "serpent" swallowed up their "serpents," but that his "staff" swallowed up their "staffs." The passage clearly says that both his staff and theirs "became serpents" and that his staff swallowed up theirs. We don't know how it was done, and there are no clues whatsoever about the means they used to do it, but the fact remains that it doesn't say or imply that they just "appeared" to do it.

I'm not one for the supernatural, and believe that pretty much every "psychic" out there is a huckster, but to take every passage that describes a supernatural act done by someone evil in the scriptures (few though they may be) as a hoax but every one done by God or his people as true, is to treat the scriptures irresponsibly. It is no different than what others do regarding God's works as well...always attributing everything God and his people did to deception or something that "must" have a natural explanation. How is it any different? In the one case some say, "nothing supernatural in the scriptures really happened" and in the other "nothing supernatural in the scriptures really happened...except those things that God himself did." I see no scriptural basis for saying that Satan has no power to do anything supernatural.

 

[TimV]

No need to create life from wood even!

Wood is dead. That's why Aaron's staff which sprouted is miraculous. Christ defined even a seed that would sprout as dead, and Peter said a deciduous fruit tree in winter is dead.

Nice loopholes, folks, but Satan doesn't have the power to create and sustain life. He can't make a Zombie, and after day four when plants were made he couldn't have taken over from God.

So, leaving what I thought would be something all Reformed folks would agree on, may I get more specific and ask exactly what gurus CAN do? Could someone please give me an example of what these folks CAN actually do that's supernatural? And be as specific as possible as to the time and location when giving examples.

 

[Damon Rambo]

No need to create life from wood even!

Wood is dead. That's why Aaron's staff which sprouted is miraculous. Christ defined even a seed that would sprout as dead, and Peter said a deciduous fruit tree in winter is dead.

The staff contains genetic material. Again, are you saying that man can do something that Satan cannot do? Man can zap people back to life with electricity, but Satan cannot? Man can design a cell and insert dead genetic material in it, and make life, but Satan cannot? That seems remarkably pompous of us...

 

[TimV]

The staff contains genetic material. Again, are you saying that man can do something that Satan cannot do? Man can zap people back to life with electricity, but Satan cannot? Man can design a cell and insert dead genetic material in it, and make life, but Satan cannot? That seems remarkably pompous of us...

Damon, I've always, and still do, respect you, but you're gettin' your baptist on at this time. Man can't zap anything back to life. If the police come upon a crime scene with a guy dead three days, even in the movies no one gets dramatic, puts the leads on the corpse and says "clear!"

And unless things have changed radically from my uni days, we still haven't created life where there wasn't any. Were we to look, I'll be we could come up with a hundred verses which state only God can create and sustain life.

But I trust I'm at least a little bit open minded. I'd like some examples of what these gurus can actually do that is impossible. Just one little example is all I'm asking for. Common knowledge doesn't cut it, 'cuz I lived in Africa and PNG for TOO LONG to believe in the X-files.

 

[Damon Rambo]

The staff contains genetic material. Again, are you saying that man can do something that Satan cannot do? Man can zap people back to life with electricity, but Satan cannot? Man can design a cell and insert dead genetic material in it, and make life, but Satan cannot? That seems remarkably pompous of us...

Damon, I've always, and still do, respect you, but you're gettin' your baptist on at this time. Man can't zap anything back to life. If the police come upon a crime scene with a guy dead three days, even in the movies no one gets dramatic, puts the leads on the corpse and says "clear!"

No, but they can sure do it 10 minutes later. And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.

And unless things have changed radically from my uni days, we still haven't created life where there wasn't any.

Don't know when your university days were, but yes we have. At least, we have brought something to life using nothing more than dead genetic material, proteins, etc. Among other things, scientists have created artificial cells out of silicon, and injected them with dead DNA...and whala! Life. Not ex nihilo, of course, but neither was the staff and snake.

Were we to look, I'll be we could come up with a hundred verses which state only God can create and sustain life.

NOW my Baptist is coming out. Show me in the Book that Satan cannot create life, out of what God has already made. I believe Satan can do whatever God allows him to do.

But I trust I'm at least a little bit open minded. I'd like some examples of what these gurus can actually do that is impossible. Just one little example is all I'm asking for. Common knowledge doesn't cut it, 'cuz I lived in Africa and PNG for TOO LONG to believe in the X-files.

I do not know about this stuff. However, I believe it has happened, because the Bible says it has. A man shattering thick iron bands and overpowering several men, is certainly outside of the "natural" realm. Again, I agree with John Calvin, that Satan does indeed do some things outside of the "normal" realm.

 

[Nate]

And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.

Don't know when your university days were, but yes we have. At least, we have brought something to life using nothing more than dead genetic material, proteins, etc. Among other things, scientists have created artificial cells out of silicon, and injected them with dead DNA...and whala! Life. Not ex nihilo, of course, but neither was the staff and snake.

, but I think you might want to refine your definition of "life". Not even secular scientist consider everything with DNA to be "alive"... including the frozen bugs that you reference (which aren't really bugs). Also, no scientist has ever injected DNA into a cells made out of silicon with a living cell as a result. That is simply not possible. The information contained within DNA is commonly fed into computers (silicon) and virtual living cells are then created (these are called in silico cells)... but not in real life. Be careful that you don't give too much credit to scientists...

 

[VictorBravo]

And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.

Don't know when your university days were, but yes we have. At least, we have brought something to life using nothing more than dead genetic material, proteins, etc. Among other things, scientists have created artificial cells out of silicon, and injected them with dead DNA...and whala! Life. Not ex nihilo, of course, but neither was the staff and snake.

, but I think you might want to refine your definition of "life". Not even secular scientist consider everything with DNA to be "alive"... including the frozen bugs that you reference (which aren't really bugs). Also, no scientist has ever injected DNA into a cells made out of silicon with a living cell as a result. That is simply not possible. The information contained within DNA is commonly fed into computers (silicon) and virtual living cells are then created (these are called in silico cells)... but not in real life. Be careful that you don't give too much credit to scientists...

Thanks, Nate. I was about to say the same thing. If a scientist actually were to make a tangible life form out of silicon by injecting organic molecules into it, I dare say the entire literate (or perhaps I should say, "wired") world would have heard about it.

 

[Rom]

No need to create life from wood even!

Wood is dead. That's why Aaron's staff which sprouted is miraculous. Christ defined even a seed that would sprout as dead, and Peter said a deciduous fruit tree in winter is dead.

Nice loopholes, folks, but Satan doesn't have the power to create and sustain life. He can't make a Zombie, and after day four when plants were made he couldn't have taken over from God.

So, leaving what I thought would be something all Reformed folks would agree on, may I get more specific and ask exactly what gurus CAN do? Could someone please give me an example of what these folks CAN actually do that's supernatural? And be as specific as possible as to the time and location when giving examples.

I'm sorry - never meant to imply Satan could create life. I meant that he could transport a snake and switch it with a staff. A much better magic trick than we can do without the ability to teleport - but a trick nonetheless!

As for "gurus" I believe they are scam artists - almost everything they do is Uri Geller'esque.

 

[Damon Rambo]

And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.

Don't know when your university days were, but yes we have. At least, we have brought something to life using nothing more than dead genetic material, proteins, etc. Among other things, scientists have created artificial cells out of silicon, and injected them with dead DNA...and whala! Life. Not ex nihilo, of course, but neither was the staff and snake.

, but I think you might want to refine your definition of "life". Not even secular scientist consider everything with DNA to be "alive"... including the frozen bugs that you reference (which aren't really bugs). Also, no scientist has ever injected DNA into a cells made out of silicon with a living cell as a result. That is simply not possible. The information contained within DNA is commonly fed into computers (silicon) and virtual living cells are then created (these are called in silico cells)... but not in real life. Be careful that you don't give too much credit to scientists...

Nope. They are "bugs" (i.e. insects). Apparently you have never heard of a Bugsicle

Also, scientists have created artificial DNA, and injected it into a non-functioning cell, and brought it back to life...

Artificial life

And no, I am not talking about "computer" simulations. Scientists almost ten years ago took silicon to create an artificial cell wall, along with other "dead" parts, including DNA, and brought the cells back to life. It was in my Biology II college textbook; I have been unable to find a link. Will keep looking.

I still do not understand your objections, nor has anyone quoted me something from Scripture that says "Satan can't do ____." This is one of those "Left Behind" popular theologies, that have no basis in scripture. Satan can do ANYTHING that God allows him to do. Satan gets his power from God, and the limits of that power are whatever God says they are.

 

[VictorBravo]

Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.

Then they transplant the DNA into an already existing cell. This is what viruses have been known to do for a long time.

Note this Wall Street Journal story from May 2010. Scientists Create Synthetic Organism . Even though it purports to trumpet a "new living organism," note the quote of one biomedical engineer:

"I don't think it represents the creation of an artificial life form," said biomedical engineer James Collins at Boston University. "I view this as an organism with a synthetic genome, not as a synthetic organism. It is tough to draw where the line is."

I think his acknowlegement is the correct one. Certainly scientists are getting increasingly clever at manipulating DNA and cellular function. But that is a far cry from saying they are creating life, even though they like to flatter themselves that this is what they are doing.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.

Then they transplant the DNA into an already existing cell. This is what viruses have been known to do for a long time.

Note this Wall Street Journal story from May 2010. Scientists Create Synthetic Organism . Even though it purports to trumpet a "new living organism," note the quote of one biomedical engineer:

"I don't think it represents the creation of an artificial life form," said biomedical engineer James Collins at Boston University. "I view this as an organism with a synthetic genome, not as a synthetic organism. It is tough to draw where the line is."

I think his acknowlegement is the correct one. Certainly scientists are getting increasingly clever at manipulating DNA and cellular function. But that is a far cry from saying they are creating life, even though they like to flatter themselves that this is what they are doing.

I agree that they are not creating life from scratch. But neither would a staff becoming a snake, require life from scratch, either, The staff already contains the genetic material, which just needs to be rearranged. The scripture does not say that the staff "appeared" to become a snake. It says it "became" a snake.

I simply do not understand the theological problems with this. This does not contradict any scriptures. Why can we not simply accept what the text says, instead of doing eisegetical gymnastics to deny it, and hold on to a presupposition that is not even found in the Word of God?

 

[earl40]

Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.

"2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”"

 

[Nate]

Tim,

Here is one story for you regarding specific powers of a guru – obviously this did not happen to me personally, but I had MANY in-depth conversations regarding the supernatural event with the individual to whom it did supposedly happen. I worked for 3 years with a scientifically superb postdoc from Taiwan. She did not come from a family with a religious background (Eastern or Western), they were firmly secular as both her parents were also doctors and scientists. She apparently grew up with a horribly disfiguring and debilitating disease of some sort. She actually refused to tell me what the disease was or how it specifically affected her other than she was unable physically or emotionally attend school or have social interactions with anyone outside her immediate family. No doctors could cure her or alleviate her symptoms. Around the time she was 13 or 14 years old, there was a famous guru that was going to visit Taiwan. Her parents were desperate for a cure, so they used their prominence to get a short visit with the guru while he was in Taiwan. Apparently whatever he did to her in that short visit completely healed whatever malady she had. Full recovery. Now she firmly believes that there was some supernatural power that the guru supplied to heal her, but she realizes that this clashes with her scientific view of life, and therefore theorizes that the supernatural power interacted with her biochemistry at some fundamental level that we currently can’t measure, but someday might. This whole story was a major impediment to her willingness to believe in the gospel that I shared with her over the time that I worked with her. She simply believed that there was supernatural power outside of Jehovah.

Because there were so many important details that she would never tell me, (type of ailment, what the guru actually did), I personally don’t believe that any supernatural event occurred. Rather, I am more inclined to think that the timing of her “cure” simply coincided with the guru’s visit, and that confirmation bias is clouding her judgment. She keeps a picture of the guru in a locket that she wears on a necklace and looks at it all the time with obvious reverence. Very disturbing.


Damon,

I was unaware of bugsickles – very cool! Apparently some frogs can do this too. Unfortunately, the source you linked to along with other popular sources I looked at (National Geographic etc) are completely misleading. Both the insects and the frogs have a very low rate of metabolism that continues while they are frozen. These animals clearly can’t be described as “dead”, and yes, they do have functioning bodily processes. You can see for yourself by checking the primary literature on these subjects. And, like Victor said, Craig Venter decidedly did not create synthetic life. Yes, he synthesized the entire genome of a bacterium. But DNA synthesis is done every day – I work with it myself several times a week. He did not revive a dead cell either – he replaced the genome of a living bacterium with his synthetic genome (which he copied from another bacterium). Venter is a brilliant scientist and is smoother than most with the media, but he did not create life.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.

"2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”"

Um, that is a person speaking. What does Jesus say?

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?"
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
Mat 12:26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?

 

[TimV]

Thanks, Nate. My view of things is similar, that people often confuse cause and effect. An old Black man in Africa told me that a certain species of lizard would give you white hair if it bit you. I laughed and he got mad and say "Well look at me!"

 

[seajayrice]

Julius Erving

 

[Mushroom]

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?

John Gill:

now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments; or by their secret wiles and juggles, making things seem to appear to the sight when they did not really, but by dazzling the eyes of men by their wicked and diabolical art, they fancied they saw things which they did not; for the word has the signification of flames of fire, or of a flaming sword, or lance, which being brandished to and fro dazzles the sight.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

Julius Erving

Dr. J has supernatural powers? Well, I never!

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.

He did not say that demons had the power to do it, either. That's stretching far beyond the meaning. He was pointing out the irrationality of the Pharisees' vile charge.

 

[Damon Rambo]

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?

John Gill:

now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments; or by their secret wiles and juggles, making things seem to appear to the sight when they did not really, but by dazzling the eyes of men by their wicked and diabolical art, they fancied they saw things which they did not; for the word has the signification of flames of fire, or of a flaming sword, or lance, which being brandished to and fro dazzles the sight.

John Gill wrote his commentaries when he was 3? Wow!

Is that all you could find? One hyper-Calvinist Baptist of the 18th century? (John Gill was born 1697).

There is a reason I asked for a 16th through 17th century theologian. The 18th century, when Gill was active, was saturated (thanks to the "Enlightenment") with an anti-supernatural bias. In fact, Gill fought against this anti-supernatural bias in regards to God Himself, so was probably a bit predisposed to cede ground in regard to Satan.

[/COLOR]

Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.

He did not say that demons had the power to do it, either. That's stretching far beyond the meaning. He was pointing out the irrationality of the Pharisees' vile charge.

No, what is stretching far beyond the meaning, is when the scriptures say explicitly "The staff became a snake," and because of modern rationalistic, non scriptural teachings, we turn it into "looked like it became". There is no scripture that says Satan cannot do such a thing; just a bunch of "popular" modern theologians, like Tim Lahaye, who deny not only what the scriptures actually say, but 1700 years of church history, as well.

 

[TimV]

So what kind of things can modern gurus do, Damon? Surely you must have some examples.

 

[Mushroom]

No, what is stretching far beyond the meaning, is when the scriptures say explicitly "The staff became a snake," and because of modern rationalistic, non scriptural teachings, we turn it into "looked like it became". There is no scripture that says Satan cannot do such a thing; just a bunch of "popular" modern theologians, like Tim Lahaye, who deny not only what the scriptures actually say, but 1700 years of church history, as well.

Nice dodge, brother. How's 'bout addressing what you quoted? It has nothing to do with modernity or rationalism; there are no examples of supernatural powers in scripture other than those performed by God Himself. Christianity is not a dualistic faith, notwithstanding the influence of spriritism upon some of its fringe elements, that have evidently made inroads into the Reformed community.

I thought Lahaye would be more in your camp than Gill's, whom you so charitably accuse of heresy.