Men with supernatural powers

[VictorBravo]

Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.

Then they transplant the DNA into an already existing cell. This is what viruses have been known to do for a long time.

Note this Wall Street Journal story from May 2010. Scientists Create Synthetic Organism . Even though it purports to trumpet a "new living organism," note the quote of one biomedical engineer:

"I don't think it represents the creation of an artificial life form," said biomedical engineer James Collins at Boston University. "I view this as an organism with a synthetic genome, not as a synthetic organism. It is tough to draw where the line is."

I think his acknowlegement is the correct one. Certainly scientists are getting increasingly clever at manipulating DNA and cellular function. But that is a far cry from saying they are creating life, even though they like to flatter themselves that this is what they are doing.

I agree that they are not creating life from scratch. But neither would a staff becoming a snake, require life from scratch, either, The staff already contains the genetic material, which just needs to be rearranged. The scripture does not say that the staff "appeared" to become a snake. It says it "became" a snake.

I simply do not understand the theological problems with this. This does not contradict any scriptures. Why can we not simply accept what the text says, instead of doing eisegetical gymnastics to deny it, and hold on to a presupposition that is not even found in the Word of God?

I don't believe that the staves "appeared" to become snakes. They became snakes.

I'm just not buying the extra-scriptural pseudo-explanation that Satan was performing biomedical engineering to make it happen.

 

[earl40]

Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.

"2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”"

Um, that is a person speaking. What does Jesus say?

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?"
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
Mat 12:26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?

Well what if you saw someone raised from the dead? Would you not believe in Him? Once again I asked a specific question to which I am still waiting for an answer. The only ones that can be given is either #1 Yes, God could allow a man to be raised from the dead by satan thus "nullifying" the Resurrection of Jesus and it would show he (satan) is divided against himself and his kingdom would stand? In other words, nullifying The Lords words. #2 No, God would not allow satan to do such because it gives him an attribute only God has.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

No-one claimed the magicians' serpents weren't real serpents. The 'magic' was the change from rods to serpents. They accomplished this by 'secret arts', which to one who desires to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such, but the text does not require it in any way. Magicians perform like feats everyday in Las Vegas. Do you similarly assume they do it by supernatural means? If not, why not? You have just as much warrant to do so as you have with Pharaoh's magicians.

Actually, you only have just as much warrant to accuse Moses' "magic" of turning his rod into a snake as you do for Pharaoh's magicians. God was just as much sovereign over Moses' trick as he was the Pharaoh's magicians' trick. We do not have a divine revelation telling us that just as some legit God ordained miracle worker did this miracle so these heathens in Las Vegas did the same...The reason that Pharaoh's magician's trick (which I believe was supernatural) was false was because they associated the power to their gods...only after they could no longer perform the same miracles as Moses did they admit that Moses serves the one true God. They were deluded by a false miracle, not that the miracle was fake, but it was God allowing them to be deluded by their own beliefs. If the only argument you have against the interpretation of the contested verse as being supernatural is that you saw somebody in Las Vegas do the same thing then you are clearly being eisogesis...

I have a very stubborn dog, who through consistent running to the chain's end with a strong yank, broke every chain I bound her with until I finally bought a welded chain (technology unavailable in 33 BC) that held her. Was she supernaturally doing this? I have seen enraged psychopaths do amazing things. Was it by magic, or were they just nuts?

You missed the point. In Mark 5, it talks about a man whose madness was caused by a demon. The text clearly indicates that this demon possession gave the man supernatural strength. This is not a prescription of what demon possession always is, but it describes this man's demon possession.

the Lord alone sovereign, and alone supernatural.

So you would consider demons and angels natural? No one disagrees that the only source of something supernatural is God because He is sovereign. However, did not God give many men the ability to do true supernatural things as recorded in the Scriptures? God was always the source but he allowed not natural beings to produce them. The difference comes in the purpose. You believe that God does not use his supernatural ability to delude people, he only uses pseudo-supernatural things. Whereas I would say, from the many instances in the Bible, that God does indeed use his supernatural ability to delude people. The falsity of the supernatural event is not in its fakeness, but in the fact that they think the power comes from another source and, therefore, are more entrapped in their own beliefs. Was it not only after the magacians could not perform the same miracle as Moses that they admitted that his miracles were done by God (Ex. 8:19)?

 

[Damon Rambo]

Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.

"2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”"

Um, that is a person speaking. What does Jesus say?

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?"
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
Mat 12:26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?

Well what if you saw someone raised from the dead? Would you not believe in Him? Once again I asked a specific question to which I am still waiting for an answer. The only ones that can be given is either #1 Yes, God could allow a man to be raised from the dead by satan thus "nullifying" the Resurrection of Jesus and it would show he (satan) is divided against himself and his kingdom would stand? In other words, nullifying The Lords words. #2 No, God would not allow satan to do such because it gives him an attribute only God has.

Not at all. How would someone else being raised from the dead nullify what our Lord has done? That does not even begin to make sense.

Again, you are failing to provide scripture. Without scripture this is all just neat little conjectures on your part. 1700 years of Church theologians have spoken of Satan's ability to do supernatural works.

If Satan had a prophet that was to raise someone from the dead, I would do as commanded by scripture, and "test the Spirits" by the Word of God. We are not told to put our faith in extraordinary miracles, but in God and His Word.

Tell me, how does a fake miracle, that is well done enough to appear real, have any difference in result in your scenario? It does not. Again, trust God's Word, not seemingly miraculous, or even truly miraculous occurrences. For even Satan appears as an angel of light.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.

Then they transplant the DNA into an already existing cell. This is what viruses have been known to do for a long time.

Note this Wall Street Journal story from May 2010. Scientists Create Synthetic Organism . Even though it purports to trumpet a "new living organism," note the quote of one biomedical engineer:

"I don't think it represents the creation of an artificial life form," said biomedical engineer James Collins at Boston University. "I view this as an organism with a synthetic genome, not as a synthetic organism. It is tough to draw where the line is."

I think his acknowlegement is the correct one. Certainly scientists are getting increasingly clever at manipulating DNA and cellular function. But that is a far cry from saying they are creating life, even though they like to flatter themselves that this is what they are doing.

I agree that they are not creating life from scratch. But neither would a staff becoming a snake, require life from scratch, either, The staff already contains the genetic material, which just needs to be rearranged. The scripture does not say that the staff "appeared" to become a snake. It says it "became" a snake.

I simply do not understand the theological problems with this. This does not contradict any scriptures. Why can we not simply accept what the text says, instead of doing eisegetical gymnastics to deny it, and hold on to a presupposition that is not even found in the Word of God?

I don't believe that the staves "appeared" to become snakes. They became snakes.

I'm just not buying the extra-scriptural pseudo-explanation that Satan was performing biomedical engineering to make it happen.

I am probably skipping to many posts to comment. But knew this would be come a Science discussion.

I do believe there are such things that are counterfeit. Counterfeit Miracles come to mine. I am not willing to just willy nilly say they aren't supernatural. I do believe there are counterfeit gospels. They claim to be gospels but are no gospels at all. That doesn't mean that there is no Doctrine involved. There is such a thing as the Gospel and gospels that are counterfeits. They both come by doctrinal practices. It has to do with origin and truth.

So why can't Lucifer have supernatural powers as might the demonic?

 

[Mushroom]

BOO!
Sorry, couldn't resist.

The reason that Pharaoh's magician's trick (which I believe was supernatural) was false was because they associated the power to their gods...only after they could no longer perform the same miracles as Moses did they admit that Moses serves the one true God. They were deluded by a false miracle, not that the miracle was fake, but it was God allowing them to be deluded by their own beliefs.

So let me get this straight. God allowed a real supernatural event to be performed by Pharoah's magicians in the name of their false gods, so as to fool (delude) the Egyptians into believing these false gods had real power.

You believe that God does not use his supernatural ability to delude people, he only uses pseudo-supernatural things. Whereas I would say, from the many instances in the Bible, that God does indeed use his supernatural ability to delude people. The falsity of the supernatural event is not in its fakeness, but in the fact that they think the power comes from another source and, therefore, are more entrapped in their own beliefs. Was it not only after the magacians could not perform the same miracle as Moses that they admitted that his miracles were done by God (Ex. 8:19)?

Then He disallows further supernatural events by the same folks to show them... what?... that their false gods have some power, just not as much as He does? How does this make any sense?

You missed the point. In Mark 5, it talks about a man whose madness was caused by a demon. The text clearly indicates that this demon possession gave the man supernatural strength. This is not a prescription of what demon possession always is, but it describes this man's demon possession.

No point missed, sister. My question has not yet been answered, however. Did my dog break her chains by supernatural power? Did the psychos I've seen perform their feats by magic? Or is a person who is out of their minds or possessed by a demon capable of feats of strength and endurance beyond normal human ability because pain and self-preservation are absent from their motivations?

I believe the use of the word supernatural in this thread is in reference to an ability to perform feats that go beyond or violate natural laws of the observable universe. Yes, angels and demons are supernatural beings in that they do no normally exist as observable beings in nature, but the question is are they capable of performing acts that violate natural law. I say only when God institutes such acts, They have no 'freewill' ability to perform such feats.

 

[au5t1n]

Job 1:12:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God gave Satan permission to destroy Job's family and possessions, and Satan was able to bring this to pass by God's permission. No supernatural events occurred here, but somehow Satan was allowed control over the events that caused Job's despair.

 

[Skyler]

Question again.

What's the difference between the "magic" performed by Pharaoh's magicians and the "magic" performed by stage magicians today?

 

[Boosterseat_91]

So let me get this straight. God allowed a real supernatural event to be performed by Pharoah's magicians in the name of their false gods, so as to fool (delude) the Egyptians into believing these false gods had real power.

The purpose was to delude or harden pharaoh. It obviously wasn't purposed towards all of Egypt as in Ex. 11:2-3, God purposed to prepare the Egyptians to give generously to the Hebrews and even Pharaoh's servants saw Moses as a great man so that the Hebrews "plundered" all of Egypt.

Then He disallows further supernatural events by the same folks to show them... what?... that their false gods have some power, just not as much as He does? How does this make any sense?

Um, no. The purpose was to show them that their gods had no power. Note that in Ex. 7:11-13, Aaron's rod being a serpent swallowed up the other snakes which the magicians had imitated. This should have been cause enough to convince Pharaoh who was in the right but instead it hardened his heart.

In Ex. 8:7, the magicians imitated the bringing up of frogs but they had no power to remove the ones that God had brought up. Revelation 16:13 may be an allusion to this - "the dragon, like the magicians, intended to deceive, but God intended by them to destroy those that would be deceived" (Matthew Henry's commentary).

In Ex. 8:18, the magicians are unable to perform the bringing up of gnats. Thus in v. 19 they say, "This is the finger of God." That is to say, they were overpowered that "this check and restraint put upon us must needs be from a divine power." It is as if God said, "Hitherto shall he come but no further." The magicians inability showed whence they had their power in the former instances and they had no power over Moses except that which was given from above. They themselves were not deceived by it, their purpose was to deceive pharoah. However, now even those who had deceived him said enough to undeceive him but pharaoh grew more and more obstinate. This makes sense because those that are not made better by God's word and providence are often made worse.

So the point was their gods had no power. Their snakes were swallowed, they had no power to remove the plagues that God had brought on, and they were not even able to imitate the third plague God brought on when he brought on 7 more. God permitted these delusions to be wrought for wise and holy ends, that those who did not receive the truth might believe a lie, and herein was God righteous. "Note, God suffers the lying spirit to do strange things, that the faith of some may be tried and manifested (Deut 13:3, 1 Cor 11:19), that the infidelity of others may be confirmed, and that he who is filthy may be filthy still, 2 Cor 4:4" (Matthew Henry). Is it too hard for God then to use his supernatural abilities to delude some into believing a lie?

No point missed, sister. My question has not yet been answered, however. Did my dog break her chains by supernatural power? Did the psychos I've seen perform their feats by magic? Or is a person who is out of their minds or possessed by a demon capable of feats of strength and endurance beyond normal human ability because pain and self-preservation are absent from their motivations?

Yes, you did miss the point. This account in Mark 5 is not a prescription of what demon possession looks like. In other words, it is not saying that if someone or something breaks chains that we see as unbreakable, then they are demon possessed because that gives them the supernatural strength. Therefore, it is an erroneous conclusion to say that your dog breaks chains and therefore imply...what?...that this man was not really demon possessed as the Bible tells us he is??? The point is not that these are the symptoms but that 1) demon possession did happen during Jesus' life 2) The demon possession gave the man superhuman strength and a deluded mind.

The hard part about this discussion is that there is not a standard given on which to judge if someone has supernatural powers whether by demon possession or what have you...The Bible simply affirms that demon possession was a real occurrence that sometimes resulted in supernatural abilities. Of course, it also teaches that God always had a purpose in allowing that. In this day and age, I am honestly more likely to accuse a man like I saw in a video once who was "preaching" in front of a congregation by speaking in tongues, screaming, and seemingly getting hit by an invisible bat over and over again to be demon possessed than the many claims I hear of demon possession or supernatural feats.

I believe the use of the word supernatural in this thread is in reference to an ability to perform feats that go beyond or violate natural laws of the observable universe. Yes, angels and demons are supernatural beings in that they do no normally exist as observable beings in nature, but the question is are they capable of performing acts that violate natural law. I say only when God institutes such acts, They have no 'freewill' ability to perform such feats.

You're not making this distinction: There are supernatural beings (God, angels, and demons) that are not a part of the natural world nor under natural laws (like gravity). There are supernatural acts which are acts that go outside of natural boundaries (such as raising from the dead, etc...). This distinction is important since you seem to gloss over the fact that though God is the source of everything that occurs supernaturally, it can be done by non-supernatural beings. It can also be done for one of 2 purposes: to further delude someone who has rejected the truth (as judgment) or to sanctify someone (as a blessing). These are the 2 purposes put forth in the Bible but it is also important to remember that God uses far more natural means to judge or bless someone (especially this day and age) than supernatural means.

So, yes, anyone besides God needs God-given authority to perform a supernatural act not because God is the only one who is supernatural (because angels and demons are) but because He is the only one who is sovereign.

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------

Question again.

What's the difference between the "magic" performed by Pharaoh's magicians and the "magic" performed by stage magicians today?

The magic done today has no bearings on this discussion. That's like asking, "What's the difference between Balaam's oracles given in Numbers 23 than the pagan prophecies given today?" The difference is that the first is given in a divine book and the straight forward reading from the context and the general principles from other Scriptures indicate that God granted them supernatural feats for a time to delude pharaoh whereas the latter is not. It's fallacious to use a modern example to interpret what the magicians did as opposed to what the context indicates they did.

 

[Mushroom]

Um, no. The purpose was to show them that their gods had no power.

So the magicians had power to perform supernatural acts, but their gods had none? Either the acts of the magicians were supernatural or by the use of sleight-of-hand. The debate here centers around that. Are you claiming that God, who cannot lie, actually performed these supernatural acts, for the purpose of deception? Because there seems to be three possibilities: 1) Sleight-of-hand 2) The magicians themselves performed supernatural acts, or 3) God performed them to deceive. Since God cannot lie (deceive), #3 appears to me untenable. That these magicians or their gods would possess real power to perform supernatural acts, which you yourself reject, as does the whole of scripture, disqualifies #2. There seems to be only one option left. Do you disagree?

Yes, you did miss the point. This account in Mark 5 is not a prescription of what demon possession looks like. In other words, it is not saying that if someone or something breaks chains that we see as unbreakable, then they are demon possessed because that gives them the supernatural strength. Therefore, it is an erroneous conclusion to say that your dog breaks chains and therefore imply...what?...that this man was not really demon possessed as the Bible tells us he is??? The point is not that these are the symptoms but that 1) demon possession did happen during Jesus' life 2) The demon possession gave the man superhuman strength and a deluded mind.

Leah, the scriptures say the man was possessed by demons and he broke chains.

Mar 5:3-4 He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, (4) for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him.

Luk 8:29 For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.)

It does not say that he broke the chains by the power of the demons, that is something you are inferring without definite necessity. If the only way chains are broken is by demonic supernatural activity, which your inference would imply, then it would be an equally necessary conclusion that my dog did so by the same means. Or is it that due to his demonically-induced disregard for pain and injury, he was able to break chains, in the same way that the stupidity-induced disregard for pain and injury enabled my dog to do so?

 

[Boosterseat_91]

So the magicians had power to perform supernatural acts, but their gods had none? Either the acts of the magicians were supernatural or by the use of sleight-of-hand. The debate here centers around that. Are you claiming that God, who cannot lie, actually performed these supernatural acts, for the purpose of deception? Because there seems to be three possibilities: 1) Sleight-of-hand 2) The magicians themselves performed supernatural acts, or 3) God performed them to deceive. Since God cannot lie (deceive), #3 appears to me untenable. That these magicians or their gods would possess real power to perform supernatural acts, which you yourself reject, as does the whole of scripture, disqualifies #2. There seems to be only one option left. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree with you. It is not #1, #2, or #3. God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so. God will use Satan as an instrument of judgment and I am saying that is the case here. I've already referenced some verses, 1 Thessalonians 2:11 is another. Thus it was a supernatural act allowed by God to accomplish his purpose (as I've already stated) as judgment. I already answered this question in my previous reply.

It does not say that he broke the chains by the power of the demons, that is something you are inferring without definite necessity. If the only way chains are broken is by demonic supernatural activity, which your inference would imply, then it would be an equally necessary conclusion that my dog did so by the same means. Or is it that due to his demonically-induced disregard for pain and injury, he was able to break chains, in the same way that the stupidity-induced disregard for pain and injury enabled my dog to do so?

You are correct in saying that the text does not explicitly state something like, "and the unclean spirit gave the man supernatural strength." However, I am in no way implying that because he broke chains therefore he was demon possessed..that is totally wrong. Let me give this example (it will be a stretch so don't think I'm assuming any of it would or could happen). If I were given a genuine divine revelation that your dog was demon possessed, then I would say that he broke the chain by the power of demons. I would also say whatever he did was under the control of demons, or under control of whom he was possessed with. Likewise, with this instance, since we are told he is demon possessed, we can accurately infer that he was naked, had superhuman strength, and recognized Jesus as the Messiah because he was demon possessed. We are not told that any of these are specifically the result of the possession but, to follow the natural reading of the text, this is a logical inference.

So, I'll say it once again. This was not prescriptive of what demon possession always looks like but a description of this man's demon possession (along with the knowledge of the messiah and the nakedness and madness).

Please read my posts more carefully as I've already addressed many of these issues.

 

[seajayrice]

Job 1:12:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God gave Satan permission to destroy Job's family and possessions, and Satan was able to bring this to pass by God's permission. No supernatural events occurred here, but somehow Satan was allowed control over the events that caused Job's despair.[/QUOTE]

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

 

[au5t1n]

Job 1:12:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God gave Satan permission to destroy Job's family and possessions, and Satan was able to bring this to pass by God's permission. No supernatural events occurred here, but somehow Satan was allowed control over the events that caused Job's despair.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Oops! Thanks for catching that. In that case, these verses illustrate the point even better. God gave Satan permission to strike Job's possessions and family, even with a miraculous event. God's statement in the second verse makes it clear that he is the one with control over events, but nevertheless he told Satan "all that he hath is in thy power."

What makes my mistake sad is that I read the beginning of Job a few days ago.

 

[seajayrice]

Job 1:12:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God gave Satan permission to destroy Job's family and possessions, and Satan was able to bring this to pass by God's permission. No supernatural events occurred here, but somehow Satan was allowed control over the events that caused Job's despair.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Oops! Thanks for catching that. In that case, these verses illustrate the point even better. God gave Satan permission to strike Job's possessions and family, even with a miraculous event. God's statement in the second verse makes it clear that he is the one with control over events, but nevertheless he told Satan "all that he hath is in thy power."

What makes my mistake sad is that I read the beginning of Job a few days ago.

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!

 

[TimV]

You're not making this distinction: There are supernatural beings (God, angels, and demons) that are not a part of the natural world nor under natural laws (like gravity).

Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?

 

[au5t1n]

Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!

I do have different frames now, but in any case Harry Potter's glasses are circular and I have never had circular glasses.

 

[seajayrice]

Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!

I do have different frames now, but in any case Harry Potter's glasses are circular and I have never had circular glasses.

Obviously, I know little about Harry Potter, however I am a fan of Austin W. Go with God, Brother.

 

[au5t1n]

Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!

I do have different frames now, but in any case Harry Potter's glasses are circular and I have never had circular glasses.

Obviously, I know little about Harry Potter, however I am a fan of Austin W. Go with God, Brother.

Why thank you. You too!

 

[VictorBravo]

Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?

OK, Tim, I've been refraining from examples, but I fold. I know a guy who can eat a whole fistful of fresh habeneros without flinching. Maybe not miraculous, but spooky-scary if you ask me, especially after I tried just one.

 

[Mushroom]

God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so.

So there are men who could truthfully say to God that believed a lie because He deceived them into doing so? Is that the correct interpretation of this?:

2Th 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, (12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Mathew Henry:

God shall send them strong delusions, to believe a lie. Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by his instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts' lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation.

MH doesn't seem to hold that God does the deceiving, but gives men up to the delusions natural to them in their unregenerate state, and over to Satan to be deluded by his instruments. If these instruments are supernatural acts, then Satan would have supernatural powers. But you say that the false gods had no power. Scripture describes false gods as demons. So I'm confused. Two questions:

1) Does God deceive?

2) Does Satan or the demons have the power to perform supernatural feats that defy the observable rules of physical nature?

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 PM ----------

Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?

OK, Tim, I've been refraining from examples, but I fold. I know a guy who can eat a whole fistful of fresh habeneros without flinching. Maybe not miraculous, but spooky-scary if you ask me, especially after I tried just one.

Now I must confess, Vic, THAT sent shivers down my spine.

Bwa-ha-ha!

 

[TimV]

Vic that reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Homer ate chili made with peppers grown by inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum He ended up in the Spirit world.

 

[Boosterseat_91]

God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so.

So there are men who could truthfully say to God that believed a lie because He deceived them into doing so? Is that the correct interpretation of this?:

2Th 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, (12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No and no one is even remotely suggesting that. I'll say it again: God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so. This is the same purpose as God's Word - it will either convict a sinner and lead them to repentance or further condemn them.

Mathew Henry:

God shall send them strong delusions, to believe a lie. Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by his instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts' lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation.

MH doesn't seem to hold that God does the deceiving, but gives men up to the delusions natural to them in their unregenerate state, and over to Satan to be deluded by his instruments. If these instruments are supernatural acts, then Satan would have supernatural powers. But you say that the false gods had no power. Scripture describes false gods as demons. So I'm confused. Two questions:

1) Does God deceive?

2) Does Satan or the demons have the power to perform supernatural feats that defy the observable rules of physical nature?

Of course MH doesn't hold that God does the deceiving, I don't know of anyone that does. What you are talking about is clearly indicated in Romans 1 - that God's judgment on someone may simply be his handing them over to their sinful desires. I'll answer #2 first:

2) Satan only ever has the power to do that which he is commanded by God or is according to God's will. This is obvious from the doctrine of God's sovereignty. The Bible clearly indicates that God has allowed Satan opportunity to do supernatural feats.

1) No. It's the same thing with sin. We sin when God removes his restraining grace, yet we do the sinning and are fully responsible for it. We are deceived and are held fully responsible for that deceit. Many are deceived into believing their good works will save them but that does not make them guiltless.

If you want to appeal to MH, know that he believes that satan has done supernatural feats which I've previously referenced.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

You're not making this distinction: There are supernatural beings (God, angels, and demons) that are not a part of the natural world nor under natural laws (like gravity).

Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure really. I think the work of satan now a days is used in much more natural days, especially in like the United States and more modern countries. We are much easier deluded by some feel good sermon than some type of mystical power, perhaps because we are much more intellectually enlightened, haha. I have a friend from the Phillipines who always said really weird stuff went on there with satan worshipers and such but since the Bible gives no hard and fast standard for what is a real supernatural caused by satan or an odd occurrence of nature, its a hard line to draw. I don't think the Bible forbids the thought that something was supernatural so I pretty much leave it at that.

 

[Mushroom]

So granting supernatural abilities to magicians is not deceit, just delusions to further deceive? God doesn't initiate the scam, but helps it along by granting supernatural powers to give it credence? That's not deceit? Or at least being an accessory to deceit?

 

[Jude1-4]

Supernatural powers could be very dangerous, more so on a bad "hairday". I sure am glad I am not in control, but I know Who is. I heard a good statement at church services "watch out for the wolves inside the church" many seem to do the same out in this world. They seek their own glory, rather then giving God all the glory! James Taylor Jr laymen of Soli Deo Church, Southern Maryland

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Haven't been following this thread so this might be out of place a bit....

(2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(2Th 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(2Th 2:10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(2Th 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(2Th 2:12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe it.

 

[earl40]

I am probably skipping to many posts to comment. But knew this would be come a Science discussion.

I do believe there are such things that are counterfeit. Counterfeit Miracles come to mine. I am not willing to just willy nilly say they aren't supernatural. I do believe there are counterfeit gospels. They claim to be gospels but are no gospels at all. That doesn't mean that there is no Doctrine involved. There is such a thing as the Gospel and gospels that are counterfeits. They both come by doctrinal practices. It has to do with origin and truth.

So why can't Lucifer have supernatural powers as might the demonic?

Counterfeit gospels are not the real or the true Gospel as counterfeit miracles are not real miracles. Lucifer could not raise people from the dead....if he could in your opinion do you think The Lord would allow him to do so? If one answers yes, and He allows such, then the fact of God doing so in the past is nullified because the Resurrection is a fact that points us to Who Jesus is.

---------- Post added at 04:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 AM ----------

Haven't been following this thread so this might be out of place a bit....

(2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(2Th 2:9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(2Th 2:10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(2Th 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(2Th 2:12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe it.

So do I. It is interesting how this can be read either way from the subject at hand. I wonder if Aquinas wrote on this subject. I will look into it when I get the chance.

---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 AM ----------

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?

Though I am not sure if this sums up Matthew's view on the subject the below appears to side that satan cannot do real miracles.

Matthew Henry....
Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, are pretended; but they are false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, or only pretended miracles, to cheat the people; and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported, are notorious.

 

[py3ak]

The difficulty with testimony on the subject, is that people often don't interpret their experiences accurately.

For instance, I have been told, by Christians:
Of a man being turned into a pig;
Of parents hiring a witch doctor to destroy their son's marriage: the marriage is now destroyed;
Of dwarves who used an outdoor shower;
Of a lady whose hair fell out after being cursed by a witch.

Now I never bother arguing that someone was not appeared to in a pink-elephant way; but that I accept what they experienced, doesn't commit me to accepting their interpretation of their experience.

So for instance, Lee wrote above about how a video affected him. No doubt, then, that is how he felt. But that doesn't mean it was demonic. I still have trouble thinking that making us briefly weak and cold is a priority for the demons, or a necessary sign of their activity. Thinking about Dr. Frankenstein this morning, and imagining myself in his place, had a dramatic impact on how I felt. Was that demonic, or was it a normal function of imagination?

As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.

 

[Jack K]

As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.

Very well put.

 

[Skyler]

So granting supernatural abilities to magicians is not deceit, just delusions to further deceive? God doesn't initiate the scam, but helps it along by granting supernatural powers to give it credence? That's not deceit? Or at least being an accessory to deceit?

You mean like sending a lying spirit to the prophets of the King of Israel?

 

[earl40]

As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.

I guess great minds think alike.


Summa Theologica

Article. 4 - Whether angels can work miracles?
Although the angels can do something which is outside the order of corporeal nature, yet they cannot do anything outside the whole created order, which is essential to a miracle.