Modesty and its definition

Status
Not open for further replies.
I believe the power being talked about in this definition is not about the clothes one wears but about (in this case) the woman behind the clothes.

Now I'm even more confused. Are you only preaching to women? Modesty is something commanded to both genders and the passage that you're preaching on doesn't seem directed specifically towards women.

It is significant that the apostles only explicit admonitions regarding modest dress pinpoint the women of the church. This strikes our egalitarian culture as sexist, but so does restricting women from ministerial office.

This is not to say that men are exempted, but if we believe in the full divine authority and intention of the Holy Spirit speaking in Scripture in training us up for the Christian life, that emphasis should not be seen as odd, accidental, or a modern embarrassment.
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.
 
I believe the power being talked about in this definition is not about the clothes one wears but about (in this case) the woman behind the clothes.

Now I'm even more confused. Are you only preaching to women? Modesty is something commanded to both genders and the passage that you're preaching on doesn't seem directed specifically towards women.

It is significant that the apostles only explicit admonitions regarding modest dress pinpoint the women of the church. This strikes our egalitarian culture as sexist, but so does restricting women from ministerial office.

This is not to say that men are exempted, but if we believe in the full divine authority and intention of the Holy Spirit speaking in Scripture in training us up for the Christian life, that emphasis should not be seen as odd, accidental, or a modern embarrassment.

Again, yes modesty in dress but the the Bible addresses everyone when discussing modesty in general.
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

It has a lot to do with our heart, because Christ called us not to serve ourselves by pursuing what is most comfortable to ourselves, but to pursue love for the brethren and Christ's glorification among the gentiles.

It is arguable that it would show more love toward others to dress our Spirit-indwelt temples (that display both the image of God in general, as well as the image of Christ for believers) in a manner that boosts its dignity, rather than show the world your hairy toes sticking out from your Birkenstocks during the communion service. I know it would be showing me some love if a few folk did that in past churches where I have worshiped!
 
I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available....Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

I think what you have described is admirable, and perhaps it IS actually telling of your heart. You seem to be unconcerned with how other people view you...based solely on appearance. That is good.

Unfortunately, I'm probably on the opposite end of the spectrum.
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

See, you are a guy so of course you think of comfort etc. Women do not. Do you think high heels are comfortable? :p Hairdos where you cannot move your head or you mess it up? It is very different for many women. I have been on both extremes personally because of changes in thinking when I was converted.
 
Modesty is living in a way that says my body, speech, and actions are owned by Christ, and He has the right to tell me how to conduct myself in every area of life. It is more than wearing the clothes we wear (though that is certainly important.) It is an attitude of the heart at its foundation, and everything else is built on that. Am I dressing to please the Lord, or am I dressing to catch the attention of men? Do I think about whether what I wear might cause my brethren to struggle with lust or jealousy? Do I conduct myself and speak in a way that says, "I'm so important!" or in a way that says, "I'm here to glorify Christ and serve others?"

Thanks for sharing this Marie! I couldn't agree more...ultimately I think the way we act, dress, talk...everything about us (both male and female) rests on WHOM we are trying to glorify! Ultimately it is either Self or Christ! If we are truly trying to be modest...we would strive to honor God in our speech, in our actions, including the very clothing we select to wear as these things all represent who we are!
 
Not necessarily the condition of your heart but definitely an expression of yourself. You can tell certain things about people by how they dress. Not always, of course, there are always exceptions. If you think about it I am sure you will see that you yourself notice things about people all the time based on their clothes. I also think women moreso, because they take more pains with clothes as a general rule. It used to be that guys didn't fuss much about what they wear, but that is changing rapidly.

But the modesty issue isn't just about clothes. Modesty is an attitude of the heart not an article of clothing. The problem with just focusing on clothes is the notion that men can leave themselves off the hook. Few men dress immodestly but that doesn't mean men are not modest in their behavior or thoughts. I think I dress modestly but that doesn't mean that I still don't struggle with a modest heart. We all, men and women, have an obligation to make less of oneself in order that Christ may be made much of. Focus on the heart issue and a change in clothing is sure to follow soon after.

I definitely agree that it is also a heart issue. I have to deal with myself on this even wearing skirts. I wear skirts that go to the calf mostly. Even those though I have to check my heart sometimes because there are some gored skirts that still show off the midsection. I have had to weigh how much of my womanly figure that God gave me is alright to accentuate even with skirts. My rule is am I trying to show off my figure with this skirt etc. As a woman it is sometimes hard because sometimes I just really like the skirt but other times it is a fleshly reason. I also don't want to look like Little House on the Prairie.
 
Now I'm even more confused. Are you only preaching to women? Modesty is something commanded to both genders and the passage that you're preaching on doesn't seem directed specifically towards women.

It is significant that the apostles only explicit admonitions regarding modest dress pinpoint the women of the church. This strikes our egalitarian culture as sexist, but so does restricting women from ministerial office.

This is not to say that men are exempted, but if we believe in the full divine authority and intention of the Holy Spirit speaking in Scripture in training us up for the Christian life, that emphasis should not be seen as odd, accidental, or a modern embarrassment.

Again, yes modesty in dress but the the Bible addresses everyone when discussing modesty in general.

You just missed what I said. It may address everyone in some way, but the apostles addressed women in particular over men on the subject of modesty. If you believe that there is a real reason why the Holy Spirit wrote the Scriptures the way that He wrote them, that there is meaning behind the emphases and intention that we should learn from that, then you need to accept that there is a reason for women being addressed on at least four occasions regarding modesty in dress in the epistle to the church at Corinth, the Pastoral epistles, and finally in the first epistle of Peter.

Of course this makes people throw out charges of misogyny, but there are admonitions given to men that are for men in particular, and nobody usually gripes about those. Women are not being mistreated nor oppressed just because they are singled out on certain issues in the Scriptures.

The hermeneutical method endoresed by several posters on this board would have us eliminate sex-specific instruction, and is the kind of discomfort with sex oriented commands that leads to translations such as the TNIV, which would substitute "parents" for "fathers" in various passages that are clearly addressing the male, covenant head of the home in the context of discipline. I realize that our culture has had a breakdown of the family, but that is no reason to rewrite Scripture to cover up our discomfort with these passages.
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

It has a lot to do with our heart, because Christ called us not to serve ourselves by pursuing what is most comfortable to ourselves, but to pursue love for the brethren and Christ's glorification among the gentiles.

It is arguable that it would show more love toward others to dress our Spirit-indwelt temples (that display both the image of God in general, as well as the image of Christ for believers) in a manner that boosts its dignity, rather than show the world your hairy toes sticking out from your Birkenstocks during the communion service. I know it would be showing me some love if a few folk did that in past churches where I have worshiped!

The dangers of living in Oregon. :p
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

It has a lot to do with our heart, because Christ called us not to serve ourselves by pursuing what is most comfortable to ourselves, but to pursue love for the brethren and Christ's glorification among the gentiles.

It is arguable that it would show more love toward others to dress our Spirit-indwelt temples (that display both the image of God in general, as well as the image of Christ for believers) in a manner that boosts its dignity, rather than show the world your hairy toes sticking out from your Birkenstocks during the communion service. I know it would be showing me some love if a few folk did that in past churches where I have worshiped!

The dangers of living in Oregon. :p

Haha, tell me about it.
 
Doesn't the Scriptural injunction to women relate modesty with 'shamefacedness and sobriety' and good works, which seem to have equally to do with our speech and actions?

It is also puzzling to me that the direct emphasis on 'modest clothing' in Scripture does not actually seem to be on hemline, neckline -- on the sexual aspect of modesty (though I don't mean to deny that a modest person will have care in this regard) -- but on not 'dressing up' for worship, as if worship were about what we were wearing and how we did our hair. Puzzling because often those who put the most emphasis on hemline and neckline modesty also put the most emphasis on dressing up for church? (& I wonder if Scripture puts the emphasis on these other aspects of modesty because those are the ones out of which the sexual aspect necessarily flows, rather than vice versa -- we have to hammer the sexual aspect so much because we have lost the really biblical emphasis, in hammering the sexual aspect so much?)

Andrew I think modesty does have primarily to do with understanding that we are not our own (and so not dressing or acting to glorify, please, or call attention to ourselves), and I agree with Jack K that the idea of modesty as a protection of dignity, value, and proper feeling in all our relations is important. I also think it is as difficult to learn as any other aspect of dying to self -- a lifelong process.

Also a question re: Andres' dictionary question: don't all true virtues have primarily to do with pleasing God, and the man-ward element flows from there? If so, then the dictionary definition for modesty isn't enough for God's people? It isn't enough before God, to have a sort 'autonomous' modesty that is concerned with our fellow man, but not for His sake and His glory?
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

See, you are a guy so of course you think of comfort etc. Women do not. Do you think high heels are comfortable? :p Hairdos where you cannot move your head or you mess it up? It is very different for many women. I have been on both extremes personally because of changes in thinking when I was converted.

okay then if the highheels and crazy hairdo's are so uncomfortable then why wear them? Seriously, answer this for me why an adult woman, given the choice, would wear something she really doesn't want to wear?
 
sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.

See, you are a guy so of course you think of comfort etc. Women do not. Do you think high heels are comfortable? :p Hairdos where you cannot move your head or you mess it up? It is very different for many women. I have been on both extremes personally because of changes in thinking when I was converted.

okay then if the highheels and crazy hairdo's are so uncomfortable then why wear them? Seriously, answer this for me why an adult woman, given the choice, would wear something she really doesn't want to wear?

You come to the heart of the issue. She wears them because she wants attention, adoration, second looks. Wants to be considered stylish etc. It is all self.

I really like what Heidi has said here because it is an aspect that is important and lost in our times because the sensual is so prevelant in our society. If we did have this sobriety and shamefaceness it would change us fundamentally such that our dress would follow in that change.

You cannot though also throw out the rule. We don't throw out the whole law as unnecessary because sanctification will take care of it. We uphold the law. So we still have to talk about hemlines etc.
 
I just want to go on record as saying that I'm not against high heels or pretty hairdos. But they should certainly not be our focus in coming to worship the Lord. I don't plan to argue that position :) My dear grandma, who is now in heaven after many years of selfless service to the church, wore high heels and jewelry every Sunday out of consideration to the society she was born and raised in. I agree that we need to set guidelines for ourselves and help others to consider theirs, but not necessarily use our personal convictions to judge everyone else in the absence of clear Scriptural support.
 
I think the reason that this comes up as a 'women thing' is because that aspect is so very public. No man is going to dress in 5 inch heels and a skin-tight suit. But the same cannot be said for many women in a congregation and this manifestation of a lack of modesty must be addressed. And, in whichever way it manifests itself for men should likewise be taken up by the elders.

Do remember that the reason for the focus on women and the gnat-straining, Draconian rules bandied about 'for women' is because that is the most visible problem. I know of an FRC church in a nearby town where the consistory had to actually codify the length of hemline, etc. on brides' wedding dresses because no-one was making an attempt at modesty, they were running as fast as they could in the other direction.

But these modesty rules are a reaction to the problem in almost every case, instead of doing the required 'preventative maintenance', and most often it is a case of women keeping up with the fashion of the day. They're no more sinful in this respect than the men, but the manifestation of this particular issue is just much more visible due to their sex.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top