Mystery Babylon=Rome or Jerusalem?

Status
Not open for further replies.

KMK

Administrator
Staff member
Josephus isn't considered a good source for a couple reasons including switching sides and self aggrandizement, but the siege didn't last 3.5 years, it lasted a few months. Masada fell three years later, and perhaps the 3.5 year figure you've seen is the length of time of the whole rebellion?

PS remember there were several sieges of Jerusalem. I think Jerusalem has fallen a dozen time since Christ, and will more than likely fall that number of times in the future.

Personally, I grow weary of those who quote Josephus as if he is inspired, but have never heard anyone doubt his worthiness as an historical source. Can you elaborate on the two points you make, Tim?
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
Personally, I grow weary of those who quote Josephus as if he is inspired, but have never heard anyone doubt his worthiness as an historical source. Can you elaborate on the two points you make, Tim?

Sure, I'll plan on starting a new thread, unless anyone here remembers a thread where it's already been dealt with.

Regards
 

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
There is only one city that fits the bill of mystery Babylon..as I state above this city was already called Jerusalem (by implication) by John earlier in Revelation. But, Jesus also mentions something.

Speaking of the judgment against Jerusalem he says:

“But when the king heard about it, he was furious; and he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city” (Matt 22:7).

Now Revelation

the beast [Rome] will hate the prostitute [Babylon]. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, Rev 17


The Roman army was sent and burned up the city (the harlot, babylon)...this is a historical fact and Jerusalem is the only city that clearly fits the bill in histroy.
 
Last edited:

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
The may be slightly off topic, but can anyone cite sources that prove the siege of Jerusalem last 3.5 years. I often see this quoted as a fact, however, no source is given. Did Josephus mention this anywhere?

If your looking for a Literalist only view on the 42 months mentioned in Rev. 11:2 concerning the Gentiles and Jerusalem...it is not the siege itself, the siege did not last 42 months.
Vespian recieved his comission from Nero and declared war on Jerusalem in February AD 67...the siege ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in August AD 70. That is 42 months. From the declaration of war upon Jerusalem to its destruction was 42 months.

Perhaps that helps...(but, my personal view is not quite that literalistic).

I'll get the Josephus quotes for you to confirm those dates when I get a chance.
 

TaylorOtwell

Puritan Board Junior
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. - Revelation 17:18

Would it really be accurate to describe Jerusalem as reigning over the kings of the earth? It seems more accurate to say that the kings of the earth were reigning over Jerusalem.

:confused:
 

MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I know that Erick is a sharp dude, but for anyone lurking, I would not recommend reading anything by Russell. Read Gentry, DeMar, Riddlebarger etc. instead. :2cents:

2 Tim 2:16-18 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


There are other books no doubt. But even Charles Spurgeon said even though Russell's argument goes too far, that there is plenty in the book that still render's it usefull. Though his critique most definitely disagrees with Russel's arguments he did have this to say about The Parousia...

"Though the author's theory is carried too far, it has so much of truth in it, and throws so much new light upon obscure portions of the Scriptures, and is accompanied with so much critical research and close reasoning, that it can be injurious to none and may be profitable to all."...Charles Spurgeon

Granted we are free to disagree with Spurgeon as with any one who comments on a writing.
 

Stomata leontôn

Puritan Board Sophomore
Sorry if this is a bit outside the current flow of conversation.

My understanding of the the identity of Babylon is thematic. The world empire at any time of history is so identified. Reading the notes in the Geneva Bible, this is quite clear. At first, this Babylon was the Roman Empire. When it became Christian, over time arose the Rome Church's empire to take its place. The Geneva Bible at the time of its publication takes us this far through human history.

In our day, although the Roman Church has not truly repented and may yet play a role in world importance, the world empire must be identified primarily elsewhere. That means that the beast, or "Babylon" is to be associated with the current global empire of finance. Ask yourself who or what group dominates the world today?

In that sense, modern Jerusalem may well rule over the earth and thus is in rebellion against Him Who is the one true Sovereign.

The actual answer should be debated, but what the question of what the whore of Babylon means is that the relevance of Revelation did not end when the power of the Church of Rome waned in the wake of the glorious Protestant Reformation.

At the same time, books, whose covers showed Gorbachev as the beast or that equate locusts with helicopters, are fantastical and make the book of Revelation of no use.

Israel today has no more relation to Biblical Israel in ethnicity or religion than does Mormonism, which makes like claims (cf. Rev. 2:9 and 3:9). Once Israel completely rejected Jesus Christ from their theology, they ceased to be the people of God. Moreover, history is quite clear that they were completely wiped out as an identifiable group for all time. Historically, the true Jews became Christians long ago (indeed the historical Jews were the first Christians) and the people of God, whether in the Old or New Testaments, are and have always been those whose hope is in the Son of God.

Anyone who does not believe in Him is an enemy of God. We Christians are the people of God both earthly and heavenly. God made Jacob as the sands of the seashore -- us world-wide Gentiles -- and like the stars of heaven -- us spiritual believers in Christ, Who descended from Jacob, adopted us into His family, and fulfilled Scripture completely.
 
Last edited:

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. - Revelation 17:18

Would it really be accurate to describe Jerusalem as reigning over the kings of the earth? It seems more accurate to say that the kings of the earth were reigning over Jerusalem.

:confused:

Context is key here.

Revelation is oriental (hebraic) in nature...it is covenantal, it is hebraic-apcolyptic and it is repetiative of OT literature (something like 2/3s of all the verses in Rev. are direclty from OT scriptures, or carry the same symbolism)

So it is with Rev. 17:18

Jerusalem reigned over all the kings of the land (namely, especially, the covenant land)...note: earth here is translated either as "earth" or "land" or more specifically "kin-land"

So, seeing this scripture through OT language...Jerusalem is the "center" she is the city of the great king, she sits on the holy hill, she is prominent in the whole land...she is the center of the kingdom and all the rulers of the land are to submit to her...(note: same with that levitical "taxation"). And all the peoples of the land must go into her yearly.
She sat as "queen" in THE LAND...

Again, you have to look at this through the OT scrptures...not through modernist thought.
Rome did not sit as queen, Rome was not the center of the land (Jerusalem was)...covenantally speaking the rulers in the land did not submit to Rome, but to Jerusalem.

Note: There is also more that could be brought into this with the politics of Jerusalem in the first century...in regards to Herod, the king...and all the other provinces that had to submit to Jerusalem (and Herod).

The "rod" or the "scepter" of rule was IN Jerusalem.
 

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
Sorry if this is a bit outside the current flow of conversation.

My understanding of the the identity of Babylon is thematic. The world empire at any time of history is so identified. Reading the notes in the Geneva Bible, this is quite clear. At first, this Babylon was the Roman Empire. When it became Christian, over time arose the Rome Church's empire to take its place. The Geneva Bible at the time of its publication takes us this far through human history.

In our day, although the Roman Church has not truly repented and may yet play a role in world importance, the world empire must be identified primarily elsewhere. That means that the beast, or "Babylon" is to be associated with the current global empire of finance. Ask yourself who or what group dominates the world today?

In that sense, modern Jerusalem may well rule over the earth and thus is in rebellion against Him Who is the one true Sovereign.

Peter
Have you read Hendricksen's book on Revelation? Have you heard anything about progressive parallelsim?

Personally, I hold to the old hermeneutical position that there is only one true and one sense to any scripture...the author's original meaning.

Did John originally mean, when speaking of babylon in Rev..that he was speaking about a global empire of finance?

Revelation is an epistle...just like the other epistles, written to the churches. The only meaning is the meaning that John meant when he wrote those words..

But..

In a way I agree with you...in regards to a type of progressive parallelism.

in my opinion, babylon of Rev. was apostate judaism and Jerusalem...that is what John meant when he wrote..but, there is a truth to the idea that perhaps, the Roman Catholich church under the lawless popes, was a "TYPE" of Babylon of Rev...but not THE Babylon of Rev.

See, apostate Rome became just like (or at least very similar to) apostate Judaism, Jerusalem and the babylon of Rev...
This is a type of parallelism.
This is NOT a fulfillment of prophecy, nor is it what John had in mind...but it is a "type"

Another example: Hitler is a type, a parallel, too the Beast of Revelation...though John was not writing about Hitler.

There are many other parellels in Rev. too.

note: To over simplify what I mean:
Benedict Arnold is a type of Judas Iscariot...because of both of thier betraying
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
"Mystery Babylon" is no longer a "mystery" if it is simply to be identified with a geopolitical entity. At that point it is just plain "Babylon."

Rev. Winzer -- Have you read Samuel Petto's commentary on Revelation? I gather it contains an appendix "proving Pagan Rome was not Babylon and that the Jews shall be Converted," which sounds very interesting to me.

Andrew, I have a copy of Revelation Unvailed but I haven't had an opportunity to read it. The part about the conversion of the Jews has sparked my interest.
 

Christusregnat

Puritan Board Professor
"Mystery Babylon" is no longer a "mystery" if it is simply to be identified with a geopolitical entity. At that point it is just plain "Babylon."

If I am not mistaken, the modern English usage of the term "mystery" is not a one-for-one equivalent of the Koine Greek usage of "musterion". For instance, Paul talks about the "mystery of the gospel" which God has revealed to us; not which is unrevealed.

The Pythagrians had "mysteries" that only the "elect" knew: crossing your legs a certain way, and only eating certain types of beans. We too have "mysteries" which only the elect know, such as the mystery of the gospel, and the mystery Babylon, etc.

A mystery is a revealed secret. John assumes that elect that read his book would know who or what Babylon was. It was spiritually called Egypt and Sodom, and was where our Lord was crucified.

Cheers,
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
A mystery is a revealed secret. John assumes that elect that read his book would know who or what Babylon was. It was spiritually called Egypt and Sodom, and was where our Lord was crucified.

It is also something which has an open manifestation but works in a hidden manner. The fact that Revelation accumulates the various names which stand for great wickedness and organised rebellion against God means that it references this as a hidden power which works throughout history.
 

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
Being the Angel explained to John the "mystery" of this babylon, and John records it for his readers...I personally think that we can all say, the secrets out, the mystery has been revealed..it is no longer a mystery....:)

When I saw her [myster babylon], I marveled greatly. 7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman
Revelation17:6
 

Stomata leontôn

Puritan Board Sophomore
Useful response. I have not read that book. Do you recommend it? I'll have to ask my pastor what, more exactly, "progressive parallelism" means. My current framework is that revelation speaks of historical themes for the church until the Lord's return. I think that it is prophetic, and since the precise historical identification with the figures in Revelation goes on as history goes on, John had to write in terms broad enough to be relevant to each period of history.

This was where Dispensationalism failed. The Soviet Union, for example, was typically identified precisely with a figure in Revelation. When the Soviet Union fell, everything was proven wrong. Gorbachev was not the beast nor the locusts helicopters. Its use of the figures was too narrow.

If the Roman Empire and the Church of Rome are identified narrowly or exclusively, then we have run out of prophesies; the Lord has not yet returned. But I do not think the note-writers in the Geneva Bible were wrong on their identification (my pastor says they have been corrected on other points, and the notes themselves admit conjecture in some places). So if they weren't wrong there, how do I interpret this issue today?

I note how the note-writers make the identification with the RE and RC ca 1500 and see how the same approach would fit today. You see, they do not make an exclusive id with the RC. They also id it with the earlier RE, which was already defunct. They indicate both are prophesied, and I cannnot find fault. So who is like the world empires of secular and religious Rome? Has Rome an heir? Certainly we do have a world-dominating empire very much like Rome's. Thus, can I say that our age is as much prophesied in Revelation as it was in 100 AD or 1500?

Be it so, who represents the figure of the beast now?

Peter

Have you read Hendricksen's book on Revelation? Have you heard anything about progressive parallelsim?

Personally, I hold to the old hermeneutical position that there is only one true and one sense to any scripture...the author's original meaning

....
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Being the Angel explained to John the "mystery" of this babylon, and John records it for his readers...I personally think that we can all say, the secrets out, the mystery has been revealed..it is no longer a mystery....:)

When I saw her [myster babylon], I marveled greatly. 7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman
Revelation17:6

V. 9, "here is the mind which hath wisdom." Obviously it is not so plain that one can make a clear identification with a geopolitical entity.
 

shackleton

Puritan Board Junior
My current framework is that revelation speaks of historical themes for the church until the Lord's return. I think that it is prophetic, and since the precise historical identification with the figures in Revelation goes on as history goes on, John had to write in terms broad enough to be relevant to each period of history.

This is a popular view but I do not believe that it takes hermeneutics into account. Why was the book written? For whom was the book written? Did John write some letter with the intention that it had nothing to do with them but was intended for people who lived hundreds of years later. I think we should first seek to understand what it would have meant to the intended audience.
 

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
Useful response. I have not read that book. Do you recommend it?

It is ok..(it has been a long time and I'm not in the full "idealist" camp)...I just thought that that was the perspective you were coming from.


Thus, can I say that our age is as much prophesied in Revelation as it was in 100 AD or 1500?

One of the rules I've applied to myself in the study of eschatology is this:

Not every apocolyptic utterance is a prophecy needing fulfillment

Much of Rev. is apocolyptic (revealing a heavenly truth, or a spritural mystery) and does not need a historical one time event fulfillment of prophecy (wether futurist or preterist or historicist)
e.g. Revelation 19
 

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
Being the Angel explained to John the "mystery" of this babylon, and John records it for his readers...I personally think that we can all say, the secrets out, the mystery has been revealed..it is no longer a mystery....:)

When I saw her [myster babylon], I marveled greatly. 7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman
Revelation17:6

V. 9, "here is the mind which hath wisdom." Obviously it is not so plain that one can make a clear identification with a geopolitical entity.


I agree.

But that is why it is not only a "geopolitical entity", in my view at least.

Jerusalem is the visible representative of apostate judaism...the mystery is not simply a reference to a "geopolitical entity"...but...something that is much higher.
The questions of "how" and "why" are what make this a mystery, requiring a mind with wisdom.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I agree.

But that is why it is not only a "geopolitical entity", in my view at least.

Jerusalem is the visible representative of apostate judaism...the mystery is not simply a reference to a "geopolitical entity"...but...something that is much higher.
The questions of "how" and "why" are what make this a mystery, requiring a mind with wisdom.

If this is the case, then it manifests itself in numerous geopolitical entities and cannot be identified with one in particular, as per the question originating this thread. And the Revelation is clearly not concerned with where the manifestation of this mystery is to be found so much as the nature of the mystery itself -- taking unjust and violent dominion.
 

Christusregnat

Puritan Board Professor
A mystery is a revealed secret. John assumes that elect that read his book would know who or what Babylon was. It was spiritually called Egypt and Sodom, and was where our Lord was crucified.

It is also something which has an open manifestation but works in a hidden manner. The fact that Revelation accumulates the various names which stand for great wickedness and organised rebellion against God means that it references this as a hidden power which works throughout history.

I think I see where you are coming from, but I don't believe that (in context) John is giving a generic reference to evil forces. The specific local reference to all of the "capitols of wickedness": Egypt, Sodom and Babylon, may be summed up in one place; the place where our Lord was crucified. This is perfectly consistent with our Lord's denunciation of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation in Matthew 21:33-46, 23:29-39, and 24:1-35.

Cheers,
 

Stomata leontôn

Puritan Board Sophomore
This is a popular view but I do not believe that it takes hermeneutics into account. Why was the book written? For whom was the book written? Did John write some letter with the intention that it had nothing to do with them but was intended for people who lived hundreds of years later. I think we should first seek to understand what it would have meant to the intended audience.

Right. I guess my point is to address the Geneva Bible, the product of the Calvinist Reformers in Geneva. It represents an updating of the traditional view of the church.

What the note-writers seem to do to keep the relevance both for John's own generation and future generations, is to divide the book into three parts. The middle part (I think the smallest) they seem to interpret as both applicable to John's current generation while prophesying for the future. Thus, the beast was represented in John's time by the Roman Empire, they say, and by the Roman Church in theirs. So in their thinking, John saw a beast that was represented in his own time and would be still represented in later generations. This implies that if everything in Revelation but the Lord's return were fulfilled in John's time, then Revelation would become a figurative history-book with use to John's generation but little to anyone else.

Thus the Geneva Reformers reject a strictly historicist interpretation. Put another way, the beast still lives. Who or what represents it today? That seems to me to be the question that the note-writers of the Geneva Bible pose to us who have come later.
 

Stomata leontôn

Puritan Board Sophomore
I agree.

But that is why it is not only a "geopolitical entity", in my view at least.

Jerusalem is the visible representative of apostate judaism ...the mystery is not simply a reference to a "geopolitical entity"...but...something that is much higher.

The questions of "how" and "why" are what make this a mystery, requiring a mind with wisdom.

Yes. I, too, see an emphasis on a visible representative of apostate Judaism (and Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 again). I think the Reformers were careful not to make exclusive identifications with geopolitical entities.
 

MOSES

Puritan Board Freshman
Matt 23:35-37
35 And so upon you [Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous [Prophets] Abel to the blood of Zechariah [Saints] 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets


Revelation 18:24
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”

note: The above language of Jesus speaking about Jerusalem and John speaking about (Jerusalem?) is essentially the same.


This is the "high" mystery...not that babylon is simply jerusalem...but that Jerusalem, God's chosen city, was used by God for his purposes, and was now a wicked, wicked, apostate nation that God would judge and utterly destroy.

From the oh so important "jewishness" of the book of Revelation...this would be a tremendous mystery.
That the blessed city of the great king, Jerusalem had become:

She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit
Rev. 17


This is a great mystery...and an even greater mystery, to them of John' day, was the coming of the New Jerusalem.
Again, this is all very "high" "mysterious" and "apocloyptic"

This is, in my opinion, what validates the mystery...of the "geopolitical entity"
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I think I see where you are coming from, but I don't believe that (in context) John is giving a generic reference to evil forces. The specific local reference to all of the "capitols of wickedness": Egypt, Sodom and Babylon, may be summed up in one place; the place where our Lord was crucified. This is perfectly consistent with our Lord's denunciation of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation in Matthew 21:33-46, 23:29-39, and 24:1-35.

In the letters to the seven churches there are those who say they are Jews and are not. The historical allusions to Jerusalem as a pretended centre of worship but as truly hostile to God's kingdom make a strong rhetorical case against these Jews without having to identify the actual city or its destruction. As in Matt. 24, the temple's theological significance is in the forefront. As the kingdom of God moved out into the world the phenomenon of Jewish opposition displayed itself in the pagan persecution of Christianity. Hence the Revelation shows that the phenomenon is true wherever man seeks to take dominion in opposition to God.
 

VirginiaHuguenot

Puritanboard Librarian
"Mystery Babylon" is no longer a "mystery" if it is simply to be identified with a geopolitical entity. At that point it is just plain "Babylon."

Rev. Winzer -- Have you read Samuel Petto's commentary on Revelation? I gather it contains an appendix "proving Pagan Rome was not Babylon and that the Jews shall be Converted," which sounds very interesting to me.

Andrew, I have a copy of Revelation Unvailed but I haven't had an opportunity to read it. The part about the conversion of the Jews has sparked my interest.

It sparks mine too. I would be glad to hear your thoughts about it if the opportunity presents itself.

I have found the following work, among others, to be very useful in studying that general issue.

Links and Downloads Manager - Revelation & Eschatology - The Restoration of the Jews: The History, Principles, and Bearings of the Question -- David Brown - The PuritanBoard
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
It sparks mine too. I would be glad to hear your thoughts about it if the opportunity presents itself.

I have found the following work, among others, to be very useful in studying that general issue.

Links and Downloads Manager - Revelation & Eschatology - The Restoration of the Jews: The History, Principles, and Bearings of the Question -- David Brown - The PuritanBoard

Excellent! David Brown's "Christ's Second Coming" convinced me Premillennialism leads to serious theological problems; I am putting this work on the Jews next on my list and hopefully I will get to the appendix of Petto afterwards ... the appendix of his book, that is. :)
 

KMK

Administrator
Staff member
I know that Erick is a sharp dude, but for anyone lurking, I would not recommend reading anything by Russell. Read Gentry, DeMar, Riddlebarger etc. instead. :2cents:

2 Tim 2:16-18 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


There are other books no doubt. But even Charles Spurgeon said even though Russell's argument goes too far, that there is plenty in the book that still render's it usefull. Though his critique most definitely disagrees with Russel's arguments he did have this to say about The Parousia...

"Though the author's theory is carried too far, it has so much of truth in it, and throws so much new light upon obscure portions of the Scriptures, and is accompanied with so much critical research and close reasoning, that it can be injurious to none and may be profitable to all."...Charles Spurgeon

Granted we are free to disagree with Spurgeon as with any one who comments on a writing.

Interesting quote. Nevertheless, I stand by my warning. (although with fear and trembling) :lol:

I have personal experience watching a close friend get obsessed with Russell and his ilk to the exclusion of any other school of thought. Hyper-preterism leads to broken relationships within families and churches. It is better not to travel down that road at all.

Part of the problem with Russell is when he says things like this:

All this is undeniable; and yet it would be too much, to expect that this will be regarded as an adequate fulfilment of our Savior's words by many whom prejudice-or traditional interpretations have taught to see more in the prophecy than ever inspiration included in it.

He pits his readers against church history. Anyone who disagrees with him is prejudiced or blind. And likewise, all who agree with him are more enlightened than all of those great theologians who somehow missed what Russell sees.

In addition, Russell believes Josephus is an "unexceptionable witness". I suspect he believes Josephus to be inspired. Weird.
 

ModernPuritan?

Puritan Board Freshman
How do you deal with the seven hills on which sits the scarlet harlot? Granted that the arguments for Jerusalem are strong, but does it have seven hills like Rome does?

the Vatican is a cross the river from rome, and even during the roman empires, i bieleve that the city of rome did not go across the river... who was that general who once he crossed the river had bought an army into rome?
 

ModernPuritan?

Puritan Board Freshman
Jerusalem as Whore article.

that ole whore of babylon

The Whore of Babylon

Richard Anthony

The Angel said that he will tell us the mystery of the Woman (Rev 17:7, 18). In fact, the whole book of Revelation gives us clues, so we will start our investigation there. Once we have the internal clues the external evidence shouldn't be too hard to find...



The Woman = Jerusalem

The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

There are two Jerusalem's. One was the literal, fleshly type of the true, spiritual Jerusalem. One was the Zion of Israel - the abode or rallying point of God's chosen nation, the other was the true Zion - the Abode of God and by extension the spiritual Home/Abode of His people where they are written and their spirits assemble before Him in awe and worship.

Jerusalem was once the Beautiful City of God, but now she has become a den of devils and full of idolatries and filthy abominations. God is going to judge Her and give her name to the spiritually faithful - those from both the nation of Israel and the heathen nations. Thus will His "Jerusalem" and His "Zion" be pure.

God also uses the term "this great city" to refer to Jerusalem in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 22:6-9).

The Woman has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Revelation 11:8; 17:6; 18: 20,24).

Jerusalem has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Matthew 23:29-36; Luke 6:22-23, 26; 11:47-52; 13:28,33-34; Acts 2:23,36; 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 7:51-52; Romans 11:2-5; 1 Corinthians 2:7-8; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15, James 5:10).

Mt. Zion & Jerusalem are the Capital City for the Saints (Hebrews 12:18,22-24).

Heaven is The Country for Saints: (Philippians 3:20, Hebrews 11:13-16, Galatians 4:24-26, Psalm 48:2; 74:2; 76:2; 87:5, Matthew 5:34-35).

The "Dragon" was the source of power and authority for the Beast (also referred to as the serpent, the Devil, and Satan at Revelation 12:9, 20:2). Were the Romans ever called "children of the devil"? The Jews were: (John 8:44; Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:10)! The Jews were also called "serpents" and "offspring of vipers" (Matthew 23:33)! And that same verse (Matthew 23:33) condemns them to a fiery end similar to the end of the Beast and his followers (Revelation 19:19-21)!

The 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9) refer to Jerusalem, not Rome. The seven mountains upon which Jerusalem was built are Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, Mount Moriah, Mount Bezetha, Mount Acra, Mount Gareb, and Mount Goath.

Some might ask, "If the 'whore' is Jerusalem, how could the 'beast' be Nero Caesar, from Rome? Would not the "beast" be someone who rules over Jerusalem? The answer is that Caesar DID rule over Jerusalem. The highest religious authorities in Jerusalem, and all the Jews living in Jerusalem, even admitted that Caesar is their king (John 19:15).


Revelation 11:8

Let's look at the term "Sodom." John wrote that this is a "figurative" name. That means it does not tell us the actual name of the city, but it's spiritual condition. Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself, we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah, chapter 1, after declaring that he had a "vision…concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (verse 1), Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom…" In Jeremiah 23:14, because of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem and her inhabitants had "become to Me like Sodom."

But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, that the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "And all these things happened to those [as] examples, and was written for our warning; to whom the ends of the ages have arrived." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.

Furthermore, in Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said, "[T]oday and tomorrow, and on the following [day], I must travel on, because it is not possible [for] a prophet to perish outside Jerusalem. Jerusalem! Jerusalem! The [one] killing the prophets, and stoning those having been sent to her." Then, in Matthew 23:29-37, Jesus blasted the Jews of His day for killing the prophets and the apostles. He declared that they are the children of their fathers who also killed the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they would complete the sin that their fathers started. But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35, where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day) may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all of these things will happen to you people who are living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you" (verse's 36-37). In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52).


Notice of Divorce

In Jeremiah 31:32, God said he was "an husband" to Israel. In Jeremiah 3:8-14 and Isaiah 50:1, God states that he was married to Israel, and gave Israel a bill of divorcement, because Israel committed adultery. This occured around 721 B.C.

Jesus said, "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (Deuteronomy 24:1) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:31-32).

God said that the only Just reason for divorcing your wife was "on the ground of unfaithfulness." Also, that a "written notice of divorce" must be given. Would God not abide by His own laws? Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, God served Israel her divorce papers. And this allowed for a new bride.

Revelation 21:2, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

When was the Old Jerusalem destroyed? 70AD. So when should the "new Jerusalem" have been established? 70AD. Aren't the followers of Christ now the "bride" of Christ? Yes. In 721 B.C., God divorced Himself from the adulterous, harlot wife and gave to His Son a new Bride in 70 A.D.! That's Us!


Ezekiel 16

Ezekiel 16 is very compelling evidence that Jerusalem is the whore. Here are some excerpts:

Ezekiel 16:1-2, "And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, ..Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, and thou hast said:"

Ezekiel 16:7-8, "...And comest in with an excellent adornment, Breasts have been formed, and thy hair hath grown -- And thou, naked and bare! And I pass over by thee, and I see thee, And lo, thy time is a time of loves,"

Ezekiel 16:15-18, "And thou dost trust in thy beauty, And goest a-whoring because of thy renown, And dost pour out thy whoredoms On every passer by -- to him it is. And thou dost take of thy garments, And dost make to thee spotted high-places, And dost go a-whoring upon them, They are not coming in -- nor shall it be! And thou dost take thy beauteous vessels Of My gold and My silver that I gave to thee, And dost make to thee images of a male, And dost go a-whoring with them, And dost take the garments of thy embroidery, And thou dost cover them, And My oil and My perfume thou hast set before them."

Ezekiel 16:20, "And thou dost take thy sons and thy daughters Whom thou hast born to Me, And dost sacrifice them to them for food. Is it a little thing because of thy whoredoms,"

Ezekiel 16:22, "And with all thine abominations and thy whoredoms,..."

Ezekiel 16:25-26, "At every head of the way thou hast built thy high place, And thou dost make thy beauty abominable, And dost open wide thy feet to every passer by, And dost multiply thy whoredoms, And dost go a-whoring unto sons of Egypt, Thy neighbours -- great of appetite! And thou dost multiply thy whoredoms, To provoke Me to anger."

Ezekiel 16:28-38, "And thou goest a-whoring unto sons of Asshur, Without thy being satisfied, And thou dost go a-whoring with them, And also -- thou hast not been satisfied. And thou dost multiply thy whoredoms On the land of Canaan -- toward Chaldea, And even with this thou hast not been satisfied. How weak is thy heart, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah, In thy doing all these, The work of a domineering whorish woman. In thy building thine arch at the head of every way, Thy high place thou hast made in every broad place, And -- hast not been as a whore deriding a gift. The wife who committeth adultery -- Under her husband -- doth receive strangers. To all whores they give a gift, And -- thou hast given thy gifts to all thy lovers, And dost bribe them to come in unto thee, From round about -- in thy whoredoms. And the contrary is in thee from women in thy whoredoms, That after thee none doth go a-whoring; And in thy giving a gift, And a gift hath not been given to thee; And thou art become contrary. Therefore, O whore, hear a word of Jehovah, Thus said the Lord Jehovah: Because of thy brass being poured forth, And thy nakedness is revealed in thy whoredoms near thy lovers, And near all the idols of thy abominations, And according to the blood of thy sons, Whom thou hast given to them; Therefore, lo, I am assembling all thy lovers, To whom thou hast been sweet, And all whom thou hast loved, Besides all whom thou hast hated; And I have assembled them by thee round about, And have revealed thy nakedness to them, And they have seen all thy nakedness. And I have judged thee -- judgments of adultresses, And of women shedding blood, And have given thee blood, fury, and jealousy."

Ezekiel 16:41, " And burnt thy houses with fire, And done in thee judgments before the eyes of many women, And I have caused thee to cease from going a-whoring, And also a gift thou givest no more."

The evidence is overbearing. All throughout scripture, Jerusalem is said to be the whore.
====



* The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).

* The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).

* The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).

* The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).

* The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).

* The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).

* The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).

* The Woman is the Mother of all Whores and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).

* The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).

* The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).

* The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).

* The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).

* The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).

* The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).

* The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).

* The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).

* The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).

* The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7).

* The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).

* The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).

* The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).

* The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).

* The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).

* The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).

* The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).

* The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).

* The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).

* The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).

dont remeber where i found this artilce.. as soon as i can find the link ill post it.
 

TimV

Puritanboard Botanist
the Vatican is a cross the river from rome, and even during the roman empires, i bieleve that the city of rome did not go across the river... who was that general who once he crossed the river had bought an army into rome?

Jeff, your grammar is a bit confusing, but I think you mean Julius Cesar and the Rubicon. But that river was far away from the city of Rome.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top