Need perspective on the Tsunami thing

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Anton Bruckner

Puritan Board Professor
I got some conflicting emotions ranging from apathy, to sympathy to snobbery. On one hand I feel sympathetic towards the victims, but on the other hand I cannot stand the superficial pandering of the media, this at times moves me towards totally coldness towards the victims which is wrong, then there is the muslim factor, since Indonesia is the most populous muslim nation with some terrorists and antichristians hanging out there. Remember the Burnhams?
Then there is those tourists that seemed only to be living for the moment, totally oblivious to the pain and suffering of the world, and they finally become a victim.

Then there is the orphan children, and the hungry that makes your heart ache.

Then there is the theological implications, you feel that everything is in God's control, but then you want to resist apathy and resignation, then you are tempted to believe that it was a Judgment of God, then you have the story of Job.

What should a Christian do? Run along into the emotional fervor of the moment, with donating money and crying, or stand aloft knowing God's providence? what? what? what??????
 
I wish I knew of a more helpful reply. Disasters like this obviously have no "easy answers" and even to attempt an explanation would be insensitive at best.

We know that God is in control of all things, but does that mean that we think God stirred up the winds and the waves in order to create the chaos, loss of lives, and pain and suffering that we see as a result?

Or is it that because of God's curse on our fallen world, things just don't work right. And the winds and tides and seasons that were created to be so helpful and perfect now contain a "fallen-ness" that is hard to describe?

I don't have the answers to those questions, and I'm not sure that we're called to know much more than the fact that God is Good and He is worthy of our faith and trust. Its times like these that can test our faith and bring us to the real crisis point of what we believe and why we believe it. How can we believe that God is good and in control of all things when we see things like this (or fill in your favorite scourge: starvation, torture, genecide, maryterdom, child molestation, etc.) all around us?

We need to ask and remind ourselves of our reasons to believe. We need to trust that God's ways are higher than our own, and sometimes that's hard to do when we're not given the rationale behind these events. Can we still trust and worship God even when He withholds the explanations we so desparately feel we need? Its hard. But the Cross gives us a glimpse of the answers. We know that He did not withhold these events even from His own Beloved Son, who deserved no evil. To say much more, especially to those that are suffering, will probably not yeild much fruit.

God is Good. All the time. He tells us so and He never lies. Perhaps this is a good time to not believe everything we see...
 
another thing that angered me, is seeing the foreigners being treated better than the locals. I guess you are correct, this really highlights were a person's faith is at. As for me, I need a lot more work.
 
I think overall cnn has done a good job reporting this its a way of connecting with whats going on when you cant go and help. I dont like the political side of it by any means.

Blade
 
"˜I smote you and every work of your hands with blasting wind, mildew and hail; yet you did not come back to Me,´ declares the LORD. (Haggai 2:17)
 
Originally posted by ConfederateTheocrat
"˜I smote you and every work of your hands with blasting wind, mildew and hail; yet you did not come back to Me,´ declares the LORD. (Haggai 2:17)

Mark,

Did you realize that several churches in Sri Lanka and India were buried by the Tsunami during a service on Sunday?

Did you read Luke 13?
 
I read Luke 13

The Christians killed by the tsunami are greater Christians then me, I'm sure. I was asserting simply that God is sovereign over His creation, and the weather. It could be for judgment, or for a greater purpose than that.

God's judgment cannot be tossed out the door as a possibilty of reason for the earthquake/tsunami, however. I could give multiple references to God using nature/weather to punish the wicked. Being Sri Lanka is an apostate nation that does not obey the laws of Moses, it could (and one could very well make a case for) have been God's judgment.

Do you believe that God would punish an entire nation for the sins of the majority )though not all)? It seems that was the case in Sodom and Gomorrah. Does not God think covenantally? In my opinion, we should thank God for the tsunami and praise Him for the earthquake. As the numbers rise, give thanks. God is still God, and He is still the same. As long as Jesus is on the throne, He has control over His creation, and certainly over waves and winds. Give thanks for that.

The fact that godly people and brothers in Christ are dead, we should rejoice also. Why? Because they are dead in Christ, and are in a far better place then we.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
 
Except for the fact that people who read this might actually know people and be grieving over this. I can't expect you to be pastoral, but I can be. Your comments betray your age.
 
Luke 13:1-5

"1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewishe perish." "


Fred,

This seems to me to suggest that we shouldn't think of those Muslim and Hindu nations effected by the Tsunami as more deserving of judgment than we are. On the contrary this passage reminds us that God is angry with sin all the time, and we should expect His righteous judgment to fall on unrepentant nations (like ours) wherever we are.

This is God's righteous judgment because of our sin at the fall. Surey He takes no pleasure in this as a human father takes no pleasure in severely diciplining his children.

Matthew
 
In the final analysis we can not know the mind of God. Does God hate sin? Yes. Are all sinners? Yes. Does He call us to repent? Yes. Does God love His people? Yes. Is God sovereign over all? Yes.

God is God. His purpose will not be thwarted. His will will be done.

The best we can do is to follow God and to trust Him in Jesus Christ. Otherwise, we will be steamrolled by the events of the day. Trust God not only in time (as we perceived time), but for eternity. With God a million years ago is the same as now as a million years from now.

Our understanding will always be imperfect. God's understanding is perfect.

Trust Him. His faithfulness is not like our faithfulness. We can REALLY trust Him!
 
Foreigners were stranded as well. alot of people have paid a dear price God however he decides punishes in varying ways even the most wicked can live a long life. Were all human we all grieve for what our fellow brothers in Adam(not Christ) are going through. Pray that Lord will be more merciful to us in america then he was in asia. Im so heartbroken over this I cant help but cry for those poor souls. Some are the ONLY remaining members of their familys.

I dont see how the christians were necessarilly any better than we were they wernt being persecuted they were blindsided by the wave just as much as the musselmen and hindi's.

there were amazing miracles and horrifying disaster. We can also see that this is a normal event in the grand scheme of the natural functions of the earth. The PNW my home faces the same thing we wouldnt have such a beautiful mountains and nature with out a cost.

we wouldnt have our faith and doctrine without the death and resurection of Christ and the without the death of our fellow brothers and sisters of our blessed faith.

This is as well as anytime to extend LOVE to our muslim and hindi and pagan neighbor not in fellowhip of spirit unless they repent and convert but in prayer witness and feeding.

God shows his Love and hate in the most amazing ways. he is a God of unimaginable Love and most devestating Judgment. That is why I fear and love my Lord. As do many of us.

Praise him for his righteous judgment and Glorify him for his limitless Love.

We are no better than a mussleman by any means except by what Jesus Christ has donoe for us and in us.

Praise his Holy Name in Death and Life in Hell and Heaven.

In Christ,
Blade
 
Originally posted by Bladestunner316 Pray that Lord will be more merciful to us in america then he was in asia.

Amen to that. I shudder to think what could be in store for the USA.
 
Originally posted by Ivan
Originally posted by Bladestunner316 Pray that Lord will be more merciful to us in america then he was in asia.

Amen to that. I shudder to think what could be in store for the USA.

Let us not forget that it is not just the Left Coast (no offense to the brethren in California, Oregon and Washington) which is prone to earthquakes. Two major fault lines crisscross Manhattan. Imagine, what if? Charleston, South Carolina was hit by a 7.3 earthquake in 1886. The most widely felt earthquakes in US history may be the ones which struck Missouri in 1811-1812, which may have included an 8.8. It's tempting to think there is a place on earth that is immune to God's judgment in the form of storms, earthquakes or other calamities, but there is not. The whole earth belongs to the Lord. May every person in every nation fear the Lord and bow the knee to Him who rules and governs all things, even Christ our King. And may the Church at this time pray for and reach out to those who are suffering in every nation that God might be glorified.

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by Ivan
Originally posted by Bladestunner316 Pray that Lord will be more merciful to us in america then he was in asia.

Amen to that. I shudder to think what could be in store for the USA.

Let us not forget that it is not just the Left Coast (no offense to the brethren in California, Oregon and Washington) which is prone to earthquakes. Two major fault lines crisscross Manhattan. Imagine, what if? Charleston, South Carolina was hit by a 7.3 earthquake in 1886. The most widely felt earthquakes in US history may be the ones which struck Missouri in 1811-1812, which may have included an 8.8. It's tempting to think there is a place on earth that is immune to God's judgment in the form of storms, earthquakes or other calamities, but there is not. The whole earth belongs to the Lord. May every person in every nation fear the Lord and bow the knee to Him who rules and governs all things, even Christ our King. And may the Church at this time pray for and reach out to those who are suffering in every nation that God might be glorified.

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

I lived less than a hundred miles from the New Madrid fault, which is located south of St. Louis. In 1811-1812 the course of the Mississippi River was altered by the earthquake. Not many people lived in the area at that time, so the damage was far, far, less than if it happened today. An quake of that magnitude will devastate that area. It's said that the Arch is suppose to be able to withstand such a quake. All I know is that I don't want to be in it or standing by it when a quake comes.

During my years living in the St. Louis area, I felt a few quakes from time to time. Nothing major. But I do recall one quake where for a split second it look as though the landscape had tilted.

Yes, indeed, let us pray for those on the other side of the world, as they begin the painful recovery, but let us not think for a moment that such a thing can not happen in America.
 
1 Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they are saying, "Peace and safety," then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape."

God is more merciful and gracious than we can ever imagine so when something like this happens, all one can do is look and wonder why we have been spared such a tragedy. No one knows the reason for such things but we do know that God' will is being done. May God be merciful to us. Some get a taste of judgment in this world while others get grace.

Job 12

9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this,
10in whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind?
 
Originally posted by Matthew Glover
Luke 13:1-5

"1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewishe perish." "


Fred,

This seems to me to suggest that we shouldn't think of those Muslim and Hindu nations effected by the Tsunami as more deserving of judgment than we are. On the contrary this passage reminds us that God is angry with sin all the time, and we should expect His righteous judgment to fall on unrepentant nations (like ours) wherever we are.

This is God's righteous judgment because of our sin at the fall. Surey He takes no pleasure in this as a human father takes no pleasure in severely diciplining his children.

Matthew

Matthew,

I don't mean to suggest that God neither judges unfaithful nations, nor does so completely apart from natural disaster. What I am suggesting (and I think our Lord does in Luke 13), is that it is not our place to revel or bask in such judgment and delight in pointing out to others their destruction. We bring the balm of Gilead, not the salt to rub in the wound.
 
James White's December 30 Dividing Line was basically a 42 minute sermon, incorporating Luke 13:1-5. I think he addresses the issue with as much sincerity and severity as it deserves. By far the best and most reasonable commentary that I have heard.

Edit: Here's a link :


http://aomin.org/dl28.ram

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by Authorised]
 
thanks Fred, words of wisdom. I guess there's always a temptation to be self righteous in these situations and not look at ourselves personally before passing a verdict.
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Except for the fact that people who read this might actually know people and be grieving over this.
My goal was merely to offer comfort to those who are grieving over brothers/sisters in Christ, because they are in heaven.

I can't expect you to be pastoral, but I can be.
My pastor pretty much said the same thing.

Your comments betray your age.

What is that supposed to mean?

Have you read some of the other posts in this thread?
 
Psalm 93
The LORD Reigns

The LORD reigns; he is robed in majesty;
the LORD is robed; he has put on strength as his belt.
Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.
Your throne is established from of old;
you are from everlasting.

The floods have lifted up, O LORD,
the floods have lifted up their voice;
the floods lift up their roaring.
Mightier than the thunders of many waters,
mightier than the waves of the sea,
the LORD on high is mighty!

Your decrees are very trustworthy;
holiness befits your house,
O LORD, forevermore.

I read this Psalm a few nights ago. It struck me that God's sovereignty is shown in the light of a natural disaster. Although I do not see destruction like in South Asia, I do see it in the wake of Hurricane Ivan. When I came home to Pensacola for Thanksgiving the town I had grown up in looked unfamiliar. It was eerie seeing a place you've lived for 18 years of your life look totally different. In such times the first thing we are to run to are the arms of our sovereign Lord.

One of my favorite Supertones songs, "Wilderness" says:

The rain falls on the righteous and the wicked
Mine is not to reason why this is
In this I rest in this I find my refuge
That my thoughts and ways are not His
I spend my life on looking up the answers
It's rare that I can't find a reason why
But reasons fail at children without mothers
His plan is more than I can know
 
Tsunami, Sovereignty, and Mercy

Link

Tsunami, Sovereignty, and Mercy
December 29, 2004

"œThe waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me. . . This God"”his way is perfect" (2 Samuel 22:5, 31).

After the loss of his ten children owing to a "œnatural disaster" (Job 1:19), Job said, "œThe Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). At the end of the book, the inspired writer confirms Job´s understanding of what happened. He says Job´s brothers and sisters "œcomforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (Job 42:11). This has several crucial implications for us as we think about the calamity in the Indian Ocean.

1. Satan is not ultimate, God is.
Satan had a hand in Job´s misery, but not the decisive hand. God gave Satan permission to afflict Job (Job 1:12; 2:10). But Job and the writer of this book treat God as the ultimate and decisive cause. When Satan afflicts Job with sores, Job says to his wife, "œShall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" (Job 2:10), and the writer calls these satanic sores "œthe evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (Job 42:11). So Satan is real. Satan brings misery. But Satan is not ultimate or decisive. He is on a leash. He goes no farther than God decisively permits.

2. Even if Satan caused the earthquake in the Indian Ocean the day after Christmas, he is not the decisive cause of 100,000+ deaths, God is.
God claims power over tsunamis in Job 38:8 when he asks Job rhetorically, "œWho shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb . . . and said, "˜Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed´?" Psalm 89:8-9 says, "œO Lord . . . you rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them." And Jesus himself has the same control today as he once did over the deadly threats of waves: "œHe . . . rebuked the wind and the raging waves, and they ceased, and there was a calm" (Luke 8:24). In other words, even if Satan caused the earthquake, God could have stopped the waves.

3. Destructive calamities in this world mingle judgment and mercy.
Their purposes are not simple. Job was a godly man and his miseries were not God´s punishment (Job 1:1, 8). Their design was purifying not punishment (Job 42:6). But we do not know the spiritual condition of Job´s children. Job was certainly concerned about them (Job 1:5). God may have taken their life in judgment. If that is true, then the same calamity proved in the end to be mercy for Job and judgment on his children. This is true of all calamities. They mingle judgment and mercy. They are both punishment and purification. Suffering, and even death, can be both judgment and mercy at the same time.

The clearest illustration of this is the death of Jesus. It was both judgment and mercy. It was judgment on Jesus because he bore our sins (not his own), and it was mercy toward us who trust him to bear our punishment (Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) and be our righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). Another example is the curse that lies on this fallen earth. Those who do not believe in Christ experience it as judgment, but believers experience it as, merciful, though painful, preparation for glory. "œThe creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope" (Romans 8:20). This is God´s subjection. This is why there are tsunamis.

Who suffers from this fallen world of natural disasters? All of us, Christians included: "œNot only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies" (Romans 8:23). For those who cast themselves on the mercy of Christ these afflictions are "œpreparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison" (2 Corinthians 4:17). And when death comes, it is a door to paradise. But for those who do not treasure Christ, suffering and death are God´s judgment. "œIt is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17).

For children, who are too young to process mentally the revelation of God in nature or Scripture, death is not the final word of judgment. God´s commitment to display his justice publicly means that he does not finally condemn sinful people who could not physically construe natural or special revelation (Romans 1:20). There is a difference between suppressing revelation that one can mentally comprehend (Romans 1:18), and not having a brain sufficient to comprehend it at all. Therefore, when small children suffer and die, we may not assume they are being punished or judged. No matter how horrible the suffering or death, God can turn it for their greater good.

4. The heart that Christ gives to his people feels compassion for those who suffer, no matter what their faith.
When the Bible says, "œWeep with those who weep" (Romans 12:15), it does not add, "œunless God caused the weeping." Job´s comforters would have done better to weep with Job than talk so much. That does not change when we discover that Job´s suffering was ultimately from God. No, it is right to weep with those who suffer. Pain is pain, no matter who causes it. We are all sinners. Empathy flows not from the causes of pain, but the company of pain. And we are all in it together.

Finally, Christ calls us to show mercy to those who suffer, even if they do not deserve it.
That is the meaning of mercy"”undeserved help. "œLove your enemies, do good to those who hate you" (Luke 6:27). Therefore, pray earnestly for Scott Purser and his team as they investigate the best way that the Global Diaconate can mercifully respond with the love of Christ to the calamity around the Indian Ocean.

In the merciful hands of Almighty God,

Pastor John
 
Tsunami! Where was the Christian God?

[Chris: from an email I just received. This is the radio program that Gene Cook hosts and our beloved Paul Manata has debated on.]

From: Unchained Radio


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Taking your calls live at 800-466-1873.

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I dont understand why some christians alot actually have fallen into the 'love is god' crowd??

God is God he created heaven and hell bothe rightous and wicked so is there another god out there doing these things?

blade
 
These follow up comments make me sick I believe it was judgment God chooses his means according to the counsel of HIS will not our human hearts which are dictated by misguided and decieving emotions.

Blade
 
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