Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ok..........I'll work on it more. Can't fault me for that.
Pastor unqualified?
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Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Ok..........I'll work on it more. Can't fault me for that.
Thanks.
If it is any solace, after some reflection, I think you are right about the specific case at hand - he probably should not be in the ministry.
alwaysreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
Not to beat a dead horse about John 4:8, but aren't we (some of us) making this dialogue say more than is intended? It isn't a "teaching" on marriage, or at least doesn't appear to be at all. I don't think we should be trying to wrest our marriage doctrine from this text. It appears that the import of this passage, and WHY Jesus tells the woman that she currently has no husband, is simply because He is showing her she is talking to no ordinary man!
Jesus says, "You have had five husbands, and the man you have now is not your husband," meaning: Look at all that I know about you!
At this the woman was amazed, not because she had gained an insight into godly marriage relationships, but because she had been "seen" down to her very soul.
At least this is the way I see this text, and is how I have previously thought about it.
(And by the way, Bruce, you have been MOST insightful in several of your posts this thread!)
Jesus says, "You have had five husbands, and the man you have now is not your husband," meaning: Look at all that I know about you!
At this the woman was amazed, not because she had gained an insight into godly marriage relationships, but because she had been "seen" down to her very soul.
At least this is the way I see this text, and is how I have previously thought about it.
(And by the way, Bruce, you have been MOST insightful in several of your posts this thread!)
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Chris,
If you think it is that simple, and I was squeezing it uselessly, see Augustines treatment here:
18. At length, wishing her to understand, “Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.” What means this, “Call thy husband”? Was it through her husband that He wished to give her that water? Or, because she did not understand, did He wish to teach her through her husband? Perhaps it was as the apostle says concerning women, “If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.” But this the apostle says of that where there is no Jesus present to teach. It is said, in short, to women whom the apostle was forbidding to speak in the Church.336 But when the Lord Himself was at hand, and in person speaking to her, what need was there that He should speak to her by her husband? Was it through her husband that he spoke to Mary, while sitting at His feet and receiving His word; while Martha, wholly occupied with much serving, murmured at the happiness of her sister?337 Wherefore, my brethren, let us hear and understand what it is that the Lord says to the woman, “Call thy husband.” For it may be that He is saying also to our soul, “Call thy husband.” Let us inquire also concerning the soul’s husband. Why, is not Jesus Himself already the soul’s real husband? Let the understanding be present, since what we are about to say can hardly be apprehended but by attentive hearers: therefore let the understanding be present to apprehend, and perhaps that same understanding will be found to be the husband of the soul.
19. Now Jesus, seeing that the woman did not understand, and willing her to understand, says to her, “Call thy husband.” “For the reason why thou knowest not what I say is, because thy understanding is not present: I am speaking after the Spirit, and thou art hearing after the flesh. The things which I speak relate neither to the pleasure of the ears, nor to the eyes, nor to the smell, nor to the taste, nor to the touch; by the mind alone are they received, by the understanding alone are they drawn up: that understanding is not with thee, how canst thou apprehend what I am saying? ‘Call thy husband,’ bring thy understanding forward. What is it for thee to have a soul? It is not much, for a beast has a soul. Wherein art thou better than the beast? In having understanding, which the beast has not.” Then what is “Call thy husband”? “Thou dost not apprehend me, thou dost not understand me: I am speaking to thee of the gift of God, and thy thought is of the flesh; thou wishest not to thirst in a carnal sense, I am addressing myself to the spirit: thy understanding is absent. ‘Call thy husband.’ Be not as the horse and mule, which have no understanding.” Therefore, my brethren, to have a soul, and not to have understanding, that is, not to use it, not to live according to it, is a beast’s life. For we have somewhat in common with the beasts, that by which we live in the flesh, but it must be ruled by the understanding. For the motions of the soul, which moves after the flesh, and longs to run unrestrainedly loose after carnal delights, are ruled over by the understanding. Which is to be called the husband?—that which rules, or that which is ruled? Without doubt, when the life is well ordered the understanding rules the soul, for itself belongs to the soul. For the understanding is not something other than the soul, but a thing of the soul: as the eye is not something other than the flesh, but a thing of the flesh. But whilst the eye is a thing of the flesh, yet it alone enjoys the light; and the other fleshy members may be steeped in light, but they cannot feel the light: the eye 104alone is both bathed in it, and enjoys it. Thus in our soul there is a something called the understanding. This something of the soul, which is called understanding and mind, is enlightened by the higher light. Now that higher light, by which the human mind is enlightened, is God; for “that was the true light which enlighteneth every man coming into this world.” Such a light was Christ, such a light was speaking with the woman: yet she was not present with the understanding, to have it enlightened with that light; not merely to have it shed upon it, but to enjoy it. Therefore the Lord said, “Call thy husband,” as if He were to say, I wish to enlighten, and yet there is not here whom I may enlighten: bring hither the understanding through which thou mayest be taught, by which thou mayest be ruled. Thus, put the soul without the understanding for the woman; and having the understanding as having the husband. But this husband does not rule the wife well, except when he is ruled by a higher. “For the head of the woman is the man, but the head of the man is Christ.”338 The head of the man was talking with the woman, and the man was not present. And so the Lord, as if He said, Bring hither thy head, that he may receive his head, says, “Call thy husband, and come hither;” that is, Be here, be present: for thou art as absent, while thou understandest not the voice of the Truth here present; be thou present here, but not alone; be thou here with thy husband.
20. And, the husband being not yet called, still she does not understand, still she minds the flesh; for the man is absent: “I have not,” saith she, “a husband.” And the Lord proceeds and utters mysteries. Thou mayest understand that woman really to have had at that time no husband; she was living with some man, not a lawful husband, rather a paramour than a husband. And the Lord said to her, “Thou hast well said, I have not a husband.” How then didst Thou say, “Call thy husband”? Now hear how the Lord knew well that she had not a husband. “He says to her,” etc. In case the woman might suppose that the Lord had said, “Thou hast well said, I have not a husband,” just because He had learned this fact of her, and not because he knew it by His own divinity, hear something which thou hast not said: “For thou hast had five husbands, and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband; this thou hast said truly.”
21. Once more He urges us to investigate the matter somewhat more exactly concerning these five husbands. Many have in fact understood, not indeed absurdly, nor so far improbably, the five husbands of this woman to mean the five books of Moses. For the Samaritans’ made use of these books, and were under the same law: for it was from it they had circumcision. But since we are hemmed in by what follows, “And he whom thou now hast is not thy husband,” it appears to me that we can more easily take the five senses of the body to be the five former husbands of the soul. For when one is born, before he can make use of the mind and reason, he is ruled only by the senses of the flesh. In a little child, the soul seeks for or shuns what is heard, and seen, and smells, and tastes, and is perceived by the touch. It seeks for whatever soothes, and shuns whatever offends, those five senses. At first, the soul lives according to these five senses, as five husbands; because it is ruled by them. But why are they called husbands? Because they are lawful and right: made indeed by God, and are the gifts of God to the soul. The soul is still weak while ruled by these five husbands, and living under these five husbands; but when she comes to years of exercising reason, if she is taken in hand by the noble discipline and teaching of wisdom, these five men are succeeded in their rule by no other than the true and lawful husband, and one better than they, who both rules better and rules for eternity, who cultivates and instructs her for eternity. For the five senses rule us, not for eternity, but for those temporal things that are to be sought or shunned. But when the understanding, imbued by wisdom, begins to rule the soul, it knows now not only how to avoid a pit, and to walk on even ground—a thing which the eyes show to the soul even in its weakness; nor merely to be charmed with musical voices, and to repel harsh sounds; nor to delight in agreeable scents, and to refuse offensive smells; nor to be captivated by sweetness, and displeased with bitterness; nor to be soothed with what is soft, and hurt with what is rough. For all these things are necessary to the soul in its weakness. Then what rule is made use of by that understanding? Not one to discern between black and white, but between just and unjust, between good and evil, between the profitable and the unprofitable, between chastity and impurity, that it may love the one and avoid the other; between charity and hatred, to be in the one, not to be in the other.
22. This husband had not yet succeeded to those five husbands in that woman. And 105where he does not succeed, error sways. For when the soul has begun to be capable of reason, it is ruled either by the wise mind or by error: but yet error does not rule but destroys. Wherefore, after these five senses was that woman still wandering, and error was tossing her to and fro. And this error was not a lawful husband, but a paramour: for that reason the Lord saith to her, “Thou hast well said, I have not a husband. For thou hast had five husbands.” The five senses of the flesh ruled thee at first; thou art come to the age of using reason, and yet thou art not come to wisdom, but art fallen into error. Therefore, after those five husbands, “this whom thou now hast is not thy husband.” And if not a husband, what was he but a paramour? And so, “Call,” not the paramour, but “thy husband,” that thou mayest receive me with the understanding, and not by error have some false notion of me. For the woman was still in error, as she was thinking of that water; whilst the Lord was now speaking of the Holy Ghost. Why was she erring, but because she had a paramour, not a husband? Put away, therefore, that paramour who corrupts thee, and “go, call thy husband.” Call, and come that thou mayest understand me.
If you think it is that simple, and I was squeezing it uselessly, see Augustines treatment here:
18. At length, wishing her to understand, “Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.” What means this, “Call thy husband”? Was it through her husband that He wished to give her that water? Or, because she did not understand, did He wish to teach her through her husband? Perhaps it was as the apostle says concerning women, “If they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.” But this the apostle says of that where there is no Jesus present to teach. It is said, in short, to women whom the apostle was forbidding to speak in the Church.336 But when the Lord Himself was at hand, and in person speaking to her, what need was there that He should speak to her by her husband? Was it through her husband that he spoke to Mary, while sitting at His feet and receiving His word; while Martha, wholly occupied with much serving, murmured at the happiness of her sister?337 Wherefore, my brethren, let us hear and understand what it is that the Lord says to the woman, “Call thy husband.” For it may be that He is saying also to our soul, “Call thy husband.” Let us inquire also concerning the soul’s husband. Why, is not Jesus Himself already the soul’s real husband? Let the understanding be present, since what we are about to say can hardly be apprehended but by attentive hearers: therefore let the understanding be present to apprehend, and perhaps that same understanding will be found to be the husband of the soul.
19. Now Jesus, seeing that the woman did not understand, and willing her to understand, says to her, “Call thy husband.” “For the reason why thou knowest not what I say is, because thy understanding is not present: I am speaking after the Spirit, and thou art hearing after the flesh. The things which I speak relate neither to the pleasure of the ears, nor to the eyes, nor to the smell, nor to the taste, nor to the touch; by the mind alone are they received, by the understanding alone are they drawn up: that understanding is not with thee, how canst thou apprehend what I am saying? ‘Call thy husband,’ bring thy understanding forward. What is it for thee to have a soul? It is not much, for a beast has a soul. Wherein art thou better than the beast? In having understanding, which the beast has not.” Then what is “Call thy husband”? “Thou dost not apprehend me, thou dost not understand me: I am speaking to thee of the gift of God, and thy thought is of the flesh; thou wishest not to thirst in a carnal sense, I am addressing myself to the spirit: thy understanding is absent. ‘Call thy husband.’ Be not as the horse and mule, which have no understanding.” Therefore, my brethren, to have a soul, and not to have understanding, that is, not to use it, not to live according to it, is a beast’s life. For we have somewhat in common with the beasts, that by which we live in the flesh, but it must be ruled by the understanding. For the motions of the soul, which moves after the flesh, and longs to run unrestrainedly loose after carnal delights, are ruled over by the understanding. Which is to be called the husband?—that which rules, or that which is ruled? Without doubt, when the life is well ordered the understanding rules the soul, for itself belongs to the soul. For the understanding is not something other than the soul, but a thing of the soul: as the eye is not something other than the flesh, but a thing of the flesh. But whilst the eye is a thing of the flesh, yet it alone enjoys the light; and the other fleshy members may be steeped in light, but they cannot feel the light: the eye 104alone is both bathed in it, and enjoys it. Thus in our soul there is a something called the understanding. This something of the soul, which is called understanding and mind, is enlightened by the higher light. Now that higher light, by which the human mind is enlightened, is God; for “that was the true light which enlighteneth every man coming into this world.” Such a light was Christ, such a light was speaking with the woman: yet she was not present with the understanding, to have it enlightened with that light; not merely to have it shed upon it, but to enjoy it. Therefore the Lord said, “Call thy husband,” as if He were to say, I wish to enlighten, and yet there is not here whom I may enlighten: bring hither the understanding through which thou mayest be taught, by which thou mayest be ruled. Thus, put the soul without the understanding for the woman; and having the understanding as having the husband. But this husband does not rule the wife well, except when he is ruled by a higher. “For the head of the woman is the man, but the head of the man is Christ.”338 The head of the man was talking with the woman, and the man was not present. And so the Lord, as if He said, Bring hither thy head, that he may receive his head, says, “Call thy husband, and come hither;” that is, Be here, be present: for thou art as absent, while thou understandest not the voice of the Truth here present; be thou present here, but not alone; be thou here with thy husband.
20. And, the husband being not yet called, still she does not understand, still she minds the flesh; for the man is absent: “I have not,” saith she, “a husband.” And the Lord proceeds and utters mysteries. Thou mayest understand that woman really to have had at that time no husband; she was living with some man, not a lawful husband, rather a paramour than a husband. And the Lord said to her, “Thou hast well said, I have not a husband.” How then didst Thou say, “Call thy husband”? Now hear how the Lord knew well that she had not a husband. “He says to her,” etc. In case the woman might suppose that the Lord had said, “Thou hast well said, I have not a husband,” just because He had learned this fact of her, and not because he knew it by His own divinity, hear something which thou hast not said: “For thou hast had five husbands, and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband; this thou hast said truly.”
21. Once more He urges us to investigate the matter somewhat more exactly concerning these five husbands. Many have in fact understood, not indeed absurdly, nor so far improbably, the five husbands of this woman to mean the five books of Moses. For the Samaritans’ made use of these books, and were under the same law: for it was from it they had circumcision. But since we are hemmed in by what follows, “And he whom thou now hast is not thy husband,” it appears to me that we can more easily take the five senses of the body to be the five former husbands of the soul. For when one is born, before he can make use of the mind and reason, he is ruled only by the senses of the flesh. In a little child, the soul seeks for or shuns what is heard, and seen, and smells, and tastes, and is perceived by the touch. It seeks for whatever soothes, and shuns whatever offends, those five senses. At first, the soul lives according to these five senses, as five husbands; because it is ruled by them. But why are they called husbands? Because they are lawful and right: made indeed by God, and are the gifts of God to the soul. The soul is still weak while ruled by these five husbands, and living under these five husbands; but when she comes to years of exercising reason, if she is taken in hand by the noble discipline and teaching of wisdom, these five men are succeeded in their rule by no other than the true and lawful husband, and one better than they, who both rules better and rules for eternity, who cultivates and instructs her for eternity. For the five senses rule us, not for eternity, but for those temporal things that are to be sought or shunned. But when the understanding, imbued by wisdom, begins to rule the soul, it knows now not only how to avoid a pit, and to walk on even ground—a thing which the eyes show to the soul even in its weakness; nor merely to be charmed with musical voices, and to repel harsh sounds; nor to delight in agreeable scents, and to refuse offensive smells; nor to be captivated by sweetness, and displeased with bitterness; nor to be soothed with what is soft, and hurt with what is rough. For all these things are necessary to the soul in its weakness. Then what rule is made use of by that understanding? Not one to discern between black and white, but between just and unjust, between good and evil, between the profitable and the unprofitable, between chastity and impurity, that it may love the one and avoid the other; between charity and hatred, to be in the one, not to be in the other.
22. This husband had not yet succeeded to those five husbands in that woman. And 105where he does not succeed, error sways. For when the soul has begun to be capable of reason, it is ruled either by the wise mind or by error: but yet error does not rule but destroys. Wherefore, after these five senses was that woman still wandering, and error was tossing her to and fro. And this error was not a lawful husband, but a paramour: for that reason the Lord saith to her, “Thou hast well said, I have not a husband. For thou hast had five husbands.” The five senses of the flesh ruled thee at first; thou art come to the age of using reason, and yet thou art not come to wisdom, but art fallen into error. Therefore, after those five husbands, “this whom thou now hast is not thy husband.” And if not a husband, what was he but a paramour? And so, “Call,” not the paramour, but “thy husband,” that thou mayest receive me with the understanding, and not by error have some false notion of me. For the woman was still in error, as she was thinking of that water; whilst the Lord was now speaking of the Holy Ghost. Why was she erring, but because she had a paramour, not a husband? Put away, therefore, that paramour who corrupts thee, and “go, call thy husband.” Call, and come that thou mayest understand me.
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Like many early church fathers, Augustine, while a mighty theologian, was a terrible exegete.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Greg,
You're much bolder than I..............
You're much bolder than I..............
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Greg,
You're much bolder than I..............
There were two problems. 1) Augustine studied Scripture in Latin only. He was ignorant of the Greek language. 2) The methodology of the fathers was flawed. It was based on finding allegorical renderings. Luther was right (and bolder than I):Now that's bold ... and a nice plug for learning the languages.
[Edited on 3-2-2005 by doulosChristou]
Greg, you are so right.
Augustine finds her married 5 times:
Jesus is not telling the woman to call on the Holy Spirit, her wooing husband. (Would he be number 6 or 7?)
Augustine finds her married 5 times:
So, these 5 are the five human senses.
So, her "shacking up" with "Reason" means she hasn't found her husband yet, who is the Holy Spirit of wisdom.
Jesus is not telling the woman to call on the Holy Spirit, her wooing husband. (Would he be number 6 or 7?)
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Yea. I guess he just got lucky when he wrote City of God.
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Yea. I guess he just got lucky when he wrote City of God.
Like I said, Augustine is a mighty theologian. Don't think I'm blowing him off. I'm a huge fan. I am in the process of tracking down his original writings in Latin. I'm the only guy I know of who has read not just his popular works but also his entire corpus of letters against the Pelagians. I've probably read more Augustine than Fred Greco has read of John Owen, and that's a lot. I started reading Augustine about twenty years ago and have more Augustine on my bookshelf than I do any other theologian. Read Confessions, City of God, The Trinity, his many many very insightful letters, the anti-Arian writings. Just don't waste too much energy on his sermons and expositions. For the two reasons I listed above, he is a terrible exegete.
Greg,
Would it not be a fairer statement of Augustine to say that he has faulty principles as to what the value of a text is for sermonic purposes, instead of a bad exegete? Because he does do exegesis for his theological works - it is just that he does a different sort of exegesis (allegorizing) for sermons. I agree that he is bad in that area.
Would it not be a fairer statement of Augustine to say that he has faulty principles as to what the value of a text is for sermonic purposes, instead of a bad exegete? Because he does do exegesis for his theological works - it is just that he does a different sort of exegesis (allegorizing) for sermons. I agree that he is bad in that area.
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Yes, that would be fair. The faulty principles of his day plus his ignorance of the languages do account for his poor sermons and expositions. He was a giant in other respects. God gifted him with an exceptional mind. All of Christianity and especially the Reformers and their heirs are deeply indebted to Augustine. After reading his popular works, I can highly recommend New City Press' translation of Answer to the Pelagians (4 volumes), Arianism and other Heresies, and Letters (4 volumes). My appreciation of Augustine is immeasurable.
alwaysreforming
Puritan Board Sophomore
(edited for space)
Scott:
I can't believe you put me through that drudgery! So many words, and I got NOTHING out of it but fatigue!
Oh, and don't think I was "schooling" you earlier. I've come to the PuritanBoard to learn, and you have been among the handful of most influential teachers for me. My knowledge is but a fraction of most of the key players here, but every now and then, if I think I can contribute something useful, I try.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I figuired you'd enjoy Augustine. When I first read it, I thought, 'Now this is artistic; it's like a verbal painting'.
Thanks for the kudos; I didn't think you were 'schooling' me, but I would not second guess the Lord if He used you in my life. He can and assuredly will.
Thanks for the kudos; I didn't think you were 'schooling' me, but I would not second guess the Lord if He used you in my life. He can and assuredly will.
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