PC(USA) joins PCA

[Calvinbeza]

Recently Veto Presbyterian church in Vincent OH joined PCA. Last year 2PCUSA church joined in AL state to affiliare with the PCA and in 2013 one 200 year old PCUSA church from NY state as well as from SC joined PCA. Few PCUSA churches from Iowa, Mississippi joined PCA in 2000s

The news are full with separatist PCUSA churches joining EPC, more recently ECO.
I thought these PCUSA churches have women elders, deacons, and fairly liberal theology, what can not match with PCA man only leadership and the strict Ref theology.

 

[AThornquist]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I would assume the PCUSA churches which joined the PCA did so because they are more conservative and no longer can remain in the PCUSA in good conscience because of the liberal tendencies you mentioned.

 

[Edward]

Veto was particularly interesting in that 5 of the 6 elders were women at the time that the decision was made. They have, of course, stepped down and presbytery is providing leadership while the officer training and qualifying process moves forward. It is not geographically convenient to any of the other congregations in the Presbytery. To their credit, they did not opt for the easy path. They, of course, have mission church status.

 

[Calvinbeza]

They would easier fit into the EPC or Eco as the majority of former PCUSA churches?

I just wanna say that all of the present day PCUSA churches more conservative or more liberal have women elders, and theologically lost Refermed identity.

 

[Jack K]

They would easier fit into the EPC or Eco as the majority of former PCUSA churches?

I just wanna say that all of the present day PCUSA churches more conservative or more liberal have women elders, and theologically lost Refermed identity.

If they've lost a good, biblical identity, wouldn't we want them to come back? Isn't this what we hope? Isn't it good news when a church that's bought into the trappings of liberalism decides to return fully to the gospel, even though it will mean fundamental changes within that church?

 

[Calvinbeza]

If they've lost a good, biblical identity, wouldn't we want them to come back? Isn't this what we hope? Isn't it good news when a church that's bought into the trappings of liberalism decides to return fully to the gospel, even though it will mean fundamental changes within that church?

Yes It is some kind of a miricle, but sadly that is not common at all, no PCUSA comes to the OPC, and just few come to the PCA.

The conservative PC(USA) are would be very liberals within the OPC and PCA. Jack, what do you think? Would be other PC(USA) churches come to the PCA?

 

[Calvinbeza]

I mean conservative PCUSA churches would be very liberals within PCA

 

[Jack K]

Yes, there's much difference between the PCUSA and the PCA. Yet now and then, a church will make that move, either because they didn't really fit where they were or because something has changed. Revival does sometimes happen even in churches that at one point in their history largely abandoned the gospel.

This is a good reminder that individual congregations, and the people in them, need to be seen for what they are rather than labelled and immediately judged by denominational affiliation. Affiliation can give us many hints as to what might be going on, but we cannot always see how the Spirit may be working in a person or a church that's affiliated in a way we would not be. I don't see much point in this whole business where we look at denominational affiliation and then express surprise when a church doesn't fit the mold. We should expect there to be churches and individuals that don't fit their denomination—because people and churches and denominations change, sometimes for the better! It happens all the time.

 

[jwithnell]

And a reminder to pray for people in the older mainline Presbyterian denominations. I try to remember to pray every time I drive by the almost 200-year-old congregation here in town.

 

[ZackF]

Veto was particularly interesting in that 5 of the 6 elders were women at the time that the decision was made. They have, of course, stepped down and presbytery is providing leadership while the officer training and qualifying process moves forward. It is not geographically convenient to any of the other congregations in the Presbytery. To their credit, they did not opt for the easy path. They, of course, have mission church status.

Ptl. I wonder if any of these women had a hand in bringing this to pass.

 

[DMcFadden]

As a former mainline member, I will testify to the fact that every one of the "7 sisters" of the mainline have individual congregations (and sometimes entire judicatories) that run counter to the prevailing stereotype of the denomination as a whole. When I was in the ABCUSA, more than a decade ago, most of our 270 congregations in the Pacific Southwest (nearly 200; some of them with 8,000 folks on a weekend) pulled out of the ABC over the homosexual issue.

But, a mainline congregation departing from a liberal mainline is not likely to move to the MOST conservative expression of that type of church. For instance, a disgruntled ABC congregation would probably not leave the ABC to become a member of the IFCA or GARB! I would suspect that a conservative Disciples of Christ group would go with the Christian Churches rather than the stricter non-instrumental Church of Christ. Nor would an ELCA congregation likely skip the LCMS in favor of WELS. So, if a mainline PCUSA congregation wanted to ditch the libs, they would still not want to join one of the confessional micro-denoms in the Presbyterian family. The PCA, while conservative, allows for some diversity that could appeal to a particular congregation, although the EPC might be a "better" fit for most of them.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised to see PCUSA folks going to the PCA for the reason of egalitarianism. Even congregations with enough biblical sense to oppose revisionist Christology (i.e., universalism) would probably swallow hard over restrictions on the role of women. The American culture has essentially marginalized non-egalitarians to such an extent that we are practically lumped with the KKK.

 

[Calvinbeza]

or would an ELCA congregation likely skip the LCMS in favor of WELS. So, if a mainline PCUSA congregation wanted to ditch the libs, they would still not want to join one of the confessional micro-denoms in the Presbyterian family. The PCA, while conservative, allows for some diversity that could appeal to a particular congregation, although the EPC might be a "better" fit for most of them.

Yes you are right Just think about it what could cause in a liberal PCUSA church to step down their women elders, get back to the Westminster Confesssion and get rid from the others like Barmen Declaration.
ECO and EPC would be a simplier choice, in the ECO denomination they dont have to change anything, in the EPC just the WCF is the Standard.
In the PCA they will be a bit geographically isolated, the next PCA church is about as far as 80-100 miles away

 

[Calvinbeza]

What could cause such teological shift?

 

[Philip]

What could cause such teological shift?

Any number of things: a reformed evangelical pastor from Gordon-Conwell who somehow slipped through the ordination process, for instance.

 

[Calvinbeza]

Veto is seeking a pastor.

The session of Veto consisted of 5 women elders out of 6. These women voluntary stepped down.

 

[Jake]

There are some very conservative churches in the mainline, surely for different reasons that don't need to have as much of a theological shift to join other denominations. The PC(USA) might not allow for as much diversity as some, but there are exceptions. There are UMC churches in the South that are very socially conservative and often quite theologically conservative as well. There have been ABC pastors on here which seem very Reformed. This is a congregation in the RCA which is exclusively psalm-singing, has solid experimental preaching, and in general is very confessional: http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_about.asp?sourceid=prcgr But the RCA also has churches very friendly toward homosexuality and has had women elders for a while.

 

[Calvinbeza]

This is a congregation in the RCA which is exclusively psalm-singing, has solid experimental preaching, and in general is very confessional: http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_ab...sourceid=prcgr But the RCA also has churches very friendly toward homosexuality and has had women elders for a while.

There is no such thing as presenting the truth without attacking error-J. M. Machen
If so why not fighting agaist liberalism?

 

[Edward]

If so why not fighting agaist liberalism?

It can be frustrating and exhausting for a congregation to try to fight liberalism in a national denomination. The pastor and elders have their hands full with shepherding their flocks, while the liberals have infiltrated the seminaries and colleges and have a lot of academics with plenty of time on their hands to stir up mischief, and move into roles with denominational agencies which give them resources with which to plot their mischief.

There is a temptation to think that 'if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone, and we can do what we are called to do'.

But it eventually proves out that the liberals, once they gain control, won't leave the congregations alone, and force the change on them. And by then, for many, it is too late.

 

[Calvinbeza]

Are there any PCUSA churches that want to join PCA?

 

[Calvinbeza]

I heard that Bakersville Presbyterian Church in Bakersville OH will leave PCUSA as well.It would go o the PCA?

 

[Calvinbeza]

Nobody of you knows?