Discussion in 'Church Order' started by CIT, Jun 7, 2011.

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  1. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Thanks. I was too lazy to look up the dates on the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (not today's EPC) and the RPCES. I learned that history when I was in Presbyterian circles a few years ago. It was mainly gleaned from a couple of longtime pastors (both of which have served in a relatively large number of Pres/Ref denoms,) John Muether and others. I've occasionally delved into the PCA Historical sites as well, which are very helpful.

    I have a B.A. in history so I seem to continue to gravitate toward history. Maybe I have "missed my calling" and should have gone into church history? Well, I suppose it's never too late.

    ---------- Post added at 01:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------

    This is a bit of a bunny trail, but I know that a good many complementarians in the EPC feel some angst about this large influx of egalitarians and female officers into their denomination, although most of them are thankful for the number of churches that have left the PCUSA.

    Of course the EPC has always allowed for latitude on the issue, but in many respects it's been on paper only. My understanding is that prior the establishment of the New Wineskins Presbytery for the former PCUSA churches, there have only ever been a small number of female TE's and a great many churches had a policy against female RE's as well. I believe at least two Presbyterys forbid women elders altogether, if not all women officers. If and when the transitional New Wineskins Presbytery is dissolved and the former PCUSA churches become normalized (for lack of a better word) and become members of the various regional presbyteries if that is what they want to do (assuming they are approved) if the envelope starts getting pushed with female elders, I think we'll likely see a number of more conservative EPC congregations looking to move elsewhere. Maybe to the PCA or ARP. Some of them are at least mildly charismatic so I don't know how that would play in those denominations.
  2. CIT

    CIT Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I wish all female officers were forbidden, but I am not aware of any Presbytery that states as such. The Central South (who I am a part of) has stated that they will not allow for a female TE, but I think that is as far as they have gone.
  3. Scottish Lass

    Scottish Lass Puritan Board Doctor

    There's already been some tension between the EPC and ARP in our joint church-planting program. We used to be paired together for some of the assessments, but it was often difficult to get the groups to agree on worship, goals, etc. So now we meet together in general sessions but break out separately for some of the practical assessments.
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Puritanboard Commissioner

    As the original post concerns two close biblical, reformed denominations, it might be helpful that the latter comparisons with the EPC might be a very different discussion.

    Perhaps another thread for that.

    (If previous threads are a guide, be sure to fasten your seat belts, first.):)
  5. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    I thought it was RE's too, but apparently that's not the case. If you allow female RE's then the back door has been left open and there is no grounds whatsoever (other than tradition or prejudice, which usually doesn't last long) for forbidding female TE's (a distinction I am not convinced is biblical anyway, but I digress.) Even a large number of female RE's may be enough for some churches to leave since that has been somewhat rare in some Presbyteries in the past.

    Other than concerns over losing church property, a commitment to egalitarianism may have been the single biggest issue keeping more conservative congregations in the PCUSA until the past few years.

    Of course, there are tons of churches, Presbyterian, Baptist, nondenom, etc. who are officially comp. but who have women teaching coed adult Sunday School, who have women "sharing" from the pulpit (which sometimes includes reading and teaching from the Bible) but they either can't or won't see how this contradicts Paul's teaching. Anything goes with many of them so long as no woman has the official title of pastor.

    Edit: Since I already posted this I'm not going to delete it (unless the mods choose otherwise,) but I won't comment anymore on the EPC since it's hijacking the thread. No doubt I'm one of the main offenders of all time on the PB in hijacking threads.
  6. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    I'm not sure Keller would agree. From his writing he seems to see the FV as within the big tent of the PCA.
  7. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Where exactly does he do this? From my understanding, he's usually placed on the other side of the spectrum from Wilson et al.
  8. D Clair Davis

    D Clair Davis Puritan Board Freshman

    I'm at Redeemer Seminary in Dallas, in NTP. Your welcoming women into lay leadership is a good resolution, and just right, I think. It's when there's room for women only in casserole duty that there's a problem. The EPC seems more welcoming, why? DCD
  9. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    I looked at your picture on the school web site, and don't recall having met you. (My eyes aren't that good, but in that picture, you look a bit like Brad Bradley). I've probably just heard your name mentioned in connection with a casual discussion of the seminary. I'm sure that we'll run across each other sooner or later.
  10. Shawn Mathis

    Shawn Mathis Puritan Board Sophomore

    "who have women teaching coed adult Sunday School"

    Chris, thanks for bringing that up. One of the exams I witnessed in the PCA had a man who agreed with that position. He, of course, nuanced it but
    that was the sum of it. He also passed.
  11. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    Oh he's not FV by any stretch, but I understand him as allowing the FV within the diversity of the PCA. Take for example this passage from "What's so Great About the PCA" (2010):

    Or this quote from the same:

  12. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Not necessarily. I also recall him (in the same article) as describing Charles Finney as being within the pietist wing of the Reformed tradition, but that doesn't mean that he would consider Finney to be within the big tent. I think he's simply describing the elements of the PCA that gave rise to FV.
  13. LadyCalvinist

    LadyCalvinist Puritan Board Junior

    I'd like to reply to this thread. I was a new member of a PCA church when the church went through a split. The associate pastor and two elders and a number of others would eventually leave the PCA for a nearby OPC church. I don't know what the dispute was about, but within a few years the PCA church included praise songs in the morning service and completely contemporary music in the evening service.

    The OPC church started to use at least one selection from the Trinity Psalter each morning worship. Also, I found some people in the PCA church who were shocked that we were calvinistic in our doctrines, whereas the OPC church was more explicitly calvinistic and sabbatarian. I guess I would say of the OPC that I think it is more hard-core calvinist than PCA. HOwever, I must say that the PCA church was more involved in evangelizing than the OPC.

    Also, just after I left the PCA church, they installed female deaconnesses.

    None of these differences matter to me now as I am happily RPCNA.
  14. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    The only reference to Finney I could find was in a footnote:

    This doesn't seem at all parallel to the FV quotes. If Keller is not assuming that the FV is just another branch of the PCA, it is difficult to determine exactly what his point is.
  15. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Maybe I'm just trying to be charitable to Keller, but it seems to me that he's simply suggesting that the verdict is still out on FV.
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