"Piper is Down. Repeat, We Have a Piper Down"

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JOwen

JOwen

Puritan Board Junior
Dear list,

My Presbytery thesis for my Final Trials is complete. If anyone would kine to read it, it is avaiable on my blog site in PDF form. If you like Piper, you'll hate the essay. If you like the Puritans, you'll like the paper.

http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/articles.htm

The article is titled "And Enjoy Him Forever: A Reformed Look at Christian Hedonism"- (.pdf) Jerrold H. Lewis.

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
:lol: Love the thread title!

The paper is excellent, Jerrold! I never liked the phrase "Christian hedonism." You have expounded Puritan thought on the chief end of man admirably. There is much wisdom from your pen as well as from the sources that you cite. Very well done! :up:
 
Originally posted by JOwen
Dear list,

My Presbytery thesis for my Final Trials is complete. If anyone would kine to read it, it is avaiable on my blog site in PDF form. If you like Piper, you'll hate the essay. If you like the Puritans, you'll like the paper.

http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/articles.htm

The article is titled "And Enjoy Him Forever: A Reformed Look at Christian Hedonism"- (.pdf) Jerrold H. Lewis.

Kind regards,

Jerrold
Click to expand...

You have to write a thesis? And I thot WE had it rough! :lol:
 
Although I like much of what Piper has written, I have NEVER like the term "Christian Hedonsim" either. As I have time, and I have precious little these days, I'll be reading your paper, Jerrold.
 
Originally posted by Ivan
Although I like much of what Piper has written, I have NEVER like the term "Christian Hedonsim" either. As I have time, and I have precious little these days, I'll be reading your paper, Jerrold.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ivan!

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
Sort of does doesn't it. :)
This is detail from The Covenanters. For anyone interested, I still have some of these high quality reproductions at Naphtali Press, click on Reformed Art. Only one of the large ones left.
http://www.naphtali.com
 
It's pretty good in general, although I'm not a big reader of Piper.

One minor question, what does Fanny Crosby's song on pp. 14-15 have to does with Christian contentment?
 
Originally posted by tcalbrecht
It's pretty good in general, although I'm not a big reader of Piper.

One minor question, what does Fanny Crosby's song on pp. 14-15 have to does with Christian contentment?
Click to expand...


I thought the context of the lyrics spoke for themselves. I guess not. Happiness is founded on contentment, and contentrment on assurance.
If you have no assurance of God's love you will never be content nor happy as per the Chief End of Man.

Kind regards,
Jerrold
 
I can't seem to open it. I have Adobe 7.0 with its updates. The other articles open just fine? It says something about my security settings not allowing it. I turned them off and it still comes up. What can I do? I want to read the paper.

Please help me. Randy
 
Jerrold,

Great paper, really enjoyed reading it! Thanks for making it available. BTW, this is the first thread title that made me laugh. :D
 
I can't open it for the same reasons as Randy. I disabled my pop up blocker and enabled cookies.

I really want to read this!
 
Originally posted by re4md
I can't open it for the same reasons as Randy. I disabled my pop up blocker and enabled cookies.

I really want to read this!
Click to expand...

If you send me your email addy, I can fire over a copy.

[email protected]

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
Originally posted by daveb
Jerrold,

Great paper, really enjoyed reading it! Thanks for making it available. BTW, this is the first thread title that made me laugh. :D
Click to expand...

So glad you liked the paper. As for the thread title...I could not resist :lol:

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
In light of the moderator's post, perhaps I should have listed this initial post in theology, or some other forum. My apologies.:banghead:
 
Originally posted by re4md
I can't open it for the same reasons as Randy. I disabled my pop up blocker and enabled cookies.

I really want to read this!
Click to expand...

If you still cannot open it, email me at [email protected] and I will send it to you.

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
I have one question. Are you interpreting Piper correctly? Are you letting Piper define his teaching here. I am not a Piper fan, per se. I have only read three of his books. The biography series. I partially read Desiring God. We all use defined words and add twists to them to illustrate things sometimes. I believe he defined himself and what he meant. It is easy to correct someone we are not letting fully define what he is saying. I know in my heart he wouldn't want anyone to be a heathen or act like a hedonist. He was just showing the pursuit and vigor of the hedonist and the way they go whole heartedly toward pleasure. I believe Piper is saying we ought to be pursuing Christ as the hedonists pursues pleasure. And by doing so we would find true pleasure.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy

[Edited on 4-15-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I have one question. Are you interpreting Piper correctly? Are you letting Piper define his teaching here. I am not a Piper fan, per se. I have only read three of his books. The biography series. I partially read Desiring God. We all use defined words and add twists to them to illustrate things sometimes. I believe he defined himself and what he meant. It is easy to correct someone we are not letting fully define what he is saying. I know in my heart he wouldn't want anyone to be a heathen or act like a hedonist. He was just showing the pursuit and vigor of the hedonist and the way they go whole heartedly toward pleasure. I believe Piper is saying we ought to be pursuing Christ as the hedonists pursues pleasure. And by doing so we would find true pleasure.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy

[Edited on 4-15-2005 by puritancovenanter]
Click to expand...


Hi Randy,

Thanks for taking the time for reading my thesis.
You asked me if I am interpreting Piper correctly. That is for you to decide. The thesis is meant to be a critical analisis. I happen to think Piper while a great author, is not untouchable when it comes to criticism, and that he has misrepresented what place enjoying God has in the life of the believer.

You said, "I believe Piper is saying we ought to be pursuing Christ as the hedonists pursues pleasure." I disagree brother. Any "ism" is a philosophy of life or a grid by which we interpret thought. Piper thinks that hedon[ism] is a good overarching theme for a believer. I disagree, and I think that my paper presents an arguement that demonstrates the Puritans do too.

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
I will have to go find a copy of his book. I'm not so sure he would say hedonism is a good thing. Like I said before I think he is comparing the attraction of the heart the hedonist has toward pursuing pleasure is what he is getting at. We ought to pursue God whole heartedly. I will examine it closer though. I just think he is speaking comparatively and you are not liking the imperfection of his comparison.

I am not criticizing your pursuit to clarify things. I would have chosen a better word than hedonism. I believe the old puritans did just fine in speaking of contentment, personal holiness, and seeking God's Kingdom with the whole heart., mind, and soul. The Psalms speak about delighting in the Lord. These are sufficient terms without using the word hedonism. Just don't throw the baby out with the dirty bath water.

Be Encouraged brother. Just doing what you are doing, being a little critical in love for the truth.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy



[Edited on 4-15-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Piper is trying to make a point, at a popular level, and I will concede that he makes statements that are misguided, and definately open to criticism. (especially in suggesting that the Westminster Q#1 should be altered, which is silly) I agree with his basic point, "God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him", but this gets misinterpreted by his popularizing style. This is why he has had to write papers to deflect such criticisms, when if he had been more careful he would not have to.

If Piper is read only critically, to find fault, we can easily do so. We can do the same for any author. We are wise if we take the point he is making and subject it to Scripture, correct it where it is misguided, and strip it of unhelpful "slogans"---if they are unhelpful to us. "Christian Hedonism" is used by Piper for its shock value. The fact that it is an oxymoron is its intended irony. It's merely Piper's attempt to get across the point Jonathon Edwards makes in his first of seventy resolutions... "Resolved, that I will do whatsoever I think to be most to God' s glory, and my own good, profit and pleasure..." We could easily take this statement of Edwards and be misled, but since we know his theology in total, we are not. The same is true of Piper. Anyone who knows Piper's theology knows he does not advocate a type of secular hedonism.

A Response to Richard Mouw Here he addresses most of the main criticisms put forth in this paper.

Was Jonathon Edwards a Christian Hedonist?
 
Originally posted by Rick Larson
Piper is trying to make a point, at a popular level, and I will concede that he makes statements that are misguided, and definitely open to criticism. (especially in suggesting that the Westminster Q#1 should be altered, which is silly) I agree with his basic point, "God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him", but this gets misinterpreted by his popularizing style. This is why he has had to write papers to deflect such criticisms, when if he had been more careful he would not have to.

If Piper is read only critically, to find fault, we can easily do so. We can do the same for any author. We are wise if we take the point he is making and subject it to Scripture, correct it where it is misguided, and strip it of unhelpful "slogans"---if they are unhelpful to us. "Christian Hedonism" is used by Piper for its shock value. The fact that it is an oxymoron is its intended irony. It's merely Piper's attempt to get across the point Jonathon Edwards makes in his first of seventy resolutions... "Resolved, that I will do whatsoever I think to be most to God' s glory, and my own good, profit and pleasure..." We could easily take this statement of Edwards and be misled, but since we know his theology in total, we are not. The same is true of Piper. Anyone who knows Piper's theology knows he does not advocate a type of secular hedonism.

A Response to Richard Mouw Here he addresses most of the main criticisms put forth in this paper.

Was Jonathon Edwards a Christian Hedonist?
Click to expand...

Thank you Rick for your thoughts. I am not above criticism, and neither is Piper:D. The point of my paper was not that we should not seek pleasure in God, but that is should not be our "ism". Ism's have the great tendency to overismplify and create doctrines of imbalance. "Shock value" ought not to enter the fray (In my humble opinion) when it comes to the chief end of man. The Puritans believed that enjoying God was a subordinate result of glorifying God. Piper does not. I agree with the Puritans.
I must admit that a mainline baptist, criticizing my Confession and Catechism in such a flippant way might have exercised me to investigate Piper's thesis in a critical way, but we should remember that in 40 pages, Piper is only mentioned in three places.

Kind regards,

Jerrold
 
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