Problem I had when leading Youth group.

[Wynteriii]

I guy asked me the question "Is are free will a gift from God?"

I could hear in the back of my mind "We don't have free-will, and if we did I would consider a torment wondering If God loves or he loves me not"

The front of my mind was that I was in a SBC Baptist Church that has a liking for Calvin theology, but has Armenian roots. What I said could be hurt me in the long run.

I bit the bullet and gave a brief lecture on the belief of free will and made sure that they knew that I was not for the belief, but against it.

Did I handle this correctly? How would you answer?

 

[lynnie]

Check out Spurgeon Vs Hypercalvinism by Iain Murray, starting around page 80. Best articulation you will find. This is how I handle it.....very good feedback from arminians and struggling kids on that passage (show them where to start or they'll never read to page 80). Spent a lot of money giving away that little book Some Calvinists to show for our efforts!!!!

 

[hammondjones]

I think I would say that a person always chooses to do what they want to do - what they desire the most. The problem is that the unregenerate person has no, zero, inclination to choose or love the things of God. They are enemies of God, and spiritually dead. They can't even see the kingdom of God. What is needed is to have something outside of ourselves come in and change our hearts, renew our minds. Then we freely choose God, but only because he has enabled us to.


I would recommend the Freedom of the Will, which pretty much covers it all.

 

[Poimen]

Yes, but only in the sense that free will was a gift that God gave to man that he squandered. In other words we no longer possess an ability to choose the good and believe in God's promises.

Heidelberg Catechism

Question 6: Did God create man so wicked and perverse?
Answer: No. God created man good[1] and in his own image,[2] that is, in true righteousness and holiness,[3] so that he might truly know God his creator,[4] love him with all his heart, and live with him in eternal happiness for his praise and glory.[5]

[1] Gen. 1:31 [2] Gen. 1:26-27 [3] Eph. 4:24 [4] Col. 3:10 [5] Ps. 8

Question 9: But doesn’t God do man an injustice by requiring in his law what man is unable to do?
Answer: No, God created man with the ability to keep the law.[1] Man, however, tempted by the devil,[2] in reckless disobedience,[3] robbed himself and all his descendants of these gifts.[4]

[1] Gen. 1:31; Eph. 4:24 [2] Gen. 3:13; John 8:44 [3] Gen. 3:6 [4] Rom. 5:12,18,19

 

[JohnGill]

I always answer that, Yes, man does have free will. But with his free will he is only capable of choosing evil. You can then show the verses where it talks about mankind only choosing evil and never seeking after God and naturally hating him because of the fall. This usually leads to the Doctrine of Original Sin.

Sometimes it's good to ask what they mean by free will. You'll get some odd answers.

 

[Zach]

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

CHAPTER 9
OF FREE WILL

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

 

[Wynteriii]

I think something that RC Sproul said has merit in this:

Man started with the (free will) ability to sin and the inability not to sin, after the fall we are left with the inability not to sin?

Did I handle the situation correctly though, I sometimes struggle after a lesson if I said enough, said the correct thing, and reached anyone. Fear and trembling comes to mind.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

I like the way Chris (JohnGill) answered it – though others said essentially the same. We do have a free will, though it is limited (talking of the unregenerate here) to the abilities of our fallen nature, i.e., what will I eat for breakfast, what color car will I buy, who will I marry, etc. The unregenerate cannot chose anything with regard to God, nor anything that can please Him, for they are dead to God, and hostile to Him, even in their deadened nature.

So the answer is, yes, they have a free will. But not such as availeth anything with God.

Now for Christians it is another story. We still struggle against our "old man" / remaining corruption / tendency to self-love, self-centeredness, and self-aggrandizement, and yet we may by the Spirit of Christ be able to choose obedience, faithfulness, and love to God. Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death through union with Him in death and resurrection. Our will is free to please God and abide in Christ, but we need His enabling. Ultimately, our pleasing God is because we are in the Beloved, washed by His blood, and the only view God has of us is through the blood of Jesus.

Wynter, there's nothing at all wrong with telling the group – next time you meet – that you have further thoughts and nuances after consulting with older brethren. I think you handled it well – and if you want to make further qualifications that's allowable; after all, the issue of the will of man has a lot of aspects.

 

[Wynteriii]

Any more book recommendations?

 

[JohnGill]

Loraine Boettner - The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

The Cause of God & Truth - John Gill Part 2, Chapter 5

From http://www.cprf.co.uk/quotes/freewill.htm

John Owen: "the whole Pelagian poison of free-will … a clear exaltation of the old idol free-will into the throne of God … That the decaying estate of Christianity have invented."

John Owen: Free will is "corrupted nature's deformed darling, the Pallas or beloved self-conception of darkened minds" (Works, vol. 10, p. 150).


A Display of Arminianism by John Owen

You can find Volume 10 of Owen's work at: Puritan Library

Any book dealing with Arminianism or Pelagianism will outline what free will can and cannot be.

 

[Wynteriii]

Is it a good thing to feel such convictions as I have stated already? I'm in a seminary and every time I'm asked to give a lesson at a church I'm more concerned about me confusing the truth then talking in front of people.

 

[J. Dean]

I always answer that, Yes, man does have free will. But with his free will he is only capable of choosing evil. You can then show the verses where it talks about mankind only choosing evil and never seeking after God and naturally hating him because of the fall. This usually leads to the Doctrine of Original Sin.

Sometimes it's good to ask what they mean by free will. You'll get some odd answers.

Nuff said.

 

[SolamVeritatem]

Wynter,

I'll second what others have said and also submit to you a post from the famous Pyromaniacs, a blog I consult when I want to think clearly through issues like this.

Pyromaniacs: Inability and Responsibility

Any search for "free will" on their page will suffice, but I have to admit that Edwards' "Freedom of the Will" and Luther's "Bondage of the Will" are two of the best works on the subject. You have my prayers in your endeavors.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[Supersillymanable]

From what I hear, Freedom of The Will by Edwards actually is counter reformation teaching...

I often find the explanation of free will and the supreme sovereignty of God hard, as at the basis of it, is a paradox (as with the Trinity).

The WCF:

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

God's utter sovereignty and decree of ALL things that come to pass, and also our responsibility for sin is not something our fallen minds can put together properly... I often worry about confusing the truth rather than speaking in front of people. I also worry about giving fluffy answers which in the long run will need to be revised in peoples minds because they're not entirely correct..

 

[SolamVeritatem]

"From what I hear, Freedom of The Will by Edwards actually is counter reformation teaching..."

I'm fairly new at this, and I don't claim to be an authority by any means on the breadth of reformation teaching, but could you elaborate on what you mean by this? I don't want to hijack the thread, so if the moderators feel this is off-topic perhaps you could PM me on it. Thanks.

Soli Deo Gloria