Problems with klineanism?

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arapahoepark

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I don't know what this clause means.

The crux here is not the killing of the Canaanites per se, but whether there is something called the Typological Intrusion which means we can't use OT ethics of any sort today. That's Kline's point.

And there it is. :) Denial of the 10 commandments. Which holding only to NT ethics, Kline and his followers essentially get rid of the 4th commandment. What’s that sound like? Dispensationalism and New Covenant Theology.
Now we're getting somewhere! Not that we weren't before...
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I pointed that out 12 years ago. I saw that the Reformed world was using Klinean arguments to attack Federal Vision and Theonomy. I pointed out that the Reformed world would soon turn on Kline.

I must hasten to add that I am not a theonomist and Federal vision (primarily Doug Wilson) is false teaching, so any criticisms I have of Kline shouldn't take away from that.
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
The OP author wanted me to take another post from another thread and put it here.


Here are some of my favorite authors on the subject concerning the Mosaic Covenant and the Law.

https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/taken-frompract/

The Covenant of Works and the Mosaic Law / James Durham
God gave the Mosaic Covenant as an administration in the Covenant of Grace but the Israelite’s turned it into a Covenant of Works which wasn’t his intention. Therefore God rejected their sacrifices and services as not commanded. The Mosaic Covenant is not a mixed Covenant. It is an Administration of the Covenant of Grace.

Taken from

Practical Exposition of the Ten Commandments
by
James Durham

Topic is
The Covenant of Works and the Law
pp. 52-55

Our purpose is not to aim at any great accuracy, nor to multiply questions and digressions, nor to insist in application and use, but plainly and shortly (as we are able) to give you the meaning of the law of God. 1. By holding forth the native duties required in every commandment. 2. The sins which properly oppose and contradict each commandment, that by these we may have some direction and help in duty, and some spur to repentance, at least a furtherance in the work of conviction, that so by it we may be led to Christ Jesus, who is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes (Rom. 10:4), which is the principal intent of this law, as it was given to Israel.

To make way for the exposition, we shall:

I. Lay down some conclusions, which arise from the preface.
II. Give you some ordinary distinctions.
III. Clear and confirm some rules or observations useful for understanding of the whole law.

1. The first conclusion that we take for granted is, that this law (as it is moral) ties even Christians and believers now, as well as of old. Which appears from this, that he who is God the Lawgiver here, Acts 7:38, is the Angel Christ, and it is his word, as is clear, vs. 30-31. As also, the matter of it being connatural to Adam, it did bind before the law was given, and that obligatory force cannot be separated from its nature (though the exercise of right reason in nature be much obliterated since the fall). Therefore Christ was so far from destroying this law in its authority, and Paul so far from making it void by the doctrine of faith, that our Lord tells, he came to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17), and Paul shows that his preaching of faith was to establish it (Rom. 3:31). Which truth being confirmed by them both in their practice and doctrine shows that the breach of the holy law of God is no less sinful to us now, than it was to them before us.

The second conclusion is, that though this law (and obedience thereto) lie on Christians, and be called for from them, yet it is not laid on them as a Covenant of Works, or that by which they are to seek or expect justification. No, but on the contrary, to overturn self-righteousness, by this doctrine, which manifest sin, and of itself works wrath. Which is also clear, in that he is here called, Our God, which he cannot be to sinners but by his grace. And also it appears from the Lord’s owning of this sinful people as his, and his adjoining to this law so many ceremonies and sacrifices witch point out and lead to Christ; and from his adding the law on mount Sinai, as a help to the covenant made with Abraham (Gen. 17 – which was a covenant of grace, and was never altered as to its substance), in which the people of Israel, as his seed, was comprehended. Therefore it appears that this was never the Lord’s intent in covenanting thus with his people, that they should expect righteousness and life by the adjoined law, but only that it should be useful in the hand of grace to make the former covenant with Abraham effectual. So then, though we are bound to obey the law, we are not to seek righteousness or life by the duties therein enjoined.

Skipping page 54 to section II on the bottom of the page.

II. These conclusions being laid down as necessary caveats, we shall propose these distinctions for clearing of them.

1. We would distinguish between a law and a covenant, or between this law considered as a law, and as a covenant. A law does necessarily imply no more than: (1) To direct. (2) To command, enforcing that obedience by authority. A covenant does further necessarily imply promises made upon some condition, or threatenings added, if such a condition is not performed. Now, this law may be considered without the consideration of a covenant, for it was free to God to have added or not to have added promises, and the threatenings (upon supposition that the law had been kept) might never have taken effect. But the first two are essential to the law; the last two are made void to believers through Christ. In which sense it is said, that by him we are freed from the law as a covenant, so that believers’ lives depend not on the promises annexed to the law, nor are they in danger by the threatenings adjoined to it. Hence we are to advert, when the covenant of works is spoken of, that by it is not meant this law simply, but the law propounded as the condition of obtaining life by the obedience of it, in which respect it was only so formally given to Adam. This then is the first distinction between the law and the Covenant of Works.

2. [We would] distinguish between these ten commandments simply and strictly taken in the matter of them, and more complexly in their full administration, with preface, promises, sacrifices, etc. In the first sense they are a law having the matter, but not the form of the covenant of works. So Moses by it is said to describe such righteousness as the covenant of works requires, yet he does not propound it as the righteousness they were to rely on, but his scope is to put them to a Mediator, by revealing sin through the law (Rom. 10:3). In the second sense it is a covenant of grace, that same in substance with the covenant made with Abraham, and with the covenant made with believers now, but differing in its administration.

3. [We would] distinguish between God’s intention in giving and the believers in Israel, their making use of this law; and the carnal multitude among that people, their way of receiving it, and corrupt abusing it contrary to the Lord’s mind. In the first sense, it was a covenant of grace. In the second it turned to be a covenant of works to them. And therefore it is that the Lord rejects (as we may see, Isa. 1:13; 66:2-3; Jer. 7:22) their sacrifices and services as not commanded, because rested on by them, to the prejudice of grace, and contrary to the strain and scope of this law complexly considered.

https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.c...t-and-republication-of-the-covenant-of-works/

Dr. Robert B. Strimple
I found Dr. Strimple’s thoughts on Republication of the Covenant of Works as portrayed in ‘The Law is Not of Faith’ very true. “Here in the WCF, it is claimed,one also finds the same legal characterization of the Mosaic covenant even in terms of the republication of the covenant of works…” (p. 43). And I wrote in the margin of my copy: “No, no, no!” That is precisely what is not found in the Confession!” RBS

I find it strange that David Van Drunen is the Robert B. Strimple Professor of Systematic Theology and Christian Ethics at Westminster Seminary California, Dr. R. Scott Clark is the Professor of Church History and Historical Theology at Westminster Seminary California, J. V. Fesko is Acedemic Dean, Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology at Westminster Seminary California, and Bryan Estelle is Professor of Old Testament at Westminster Seminary California. It is strange that these men have taken up a position that is not confessional especially since one of Dr. Clark’s books is claiming the Recovery of Confessionalism.

Here is the conclusion of the paper by Dr. Strimple concerning Dr. Robert Scott Clark’s position concering WCF chapter 19.

The other relevant blog by Dr. Clark was published much earlier; it is dated July 16, 2007 (quoted here from footnote 87 on p. 356 of Covenant, Justification and Pastoral Ministry. Essays by the Faculty of Westminster Seminary California). There he presented essentially the same argument that he presented in his more recent blog (which we considered above), but with the additional factor of following Thomas Boston in appealing “to the logic implied by the grammar of WCF 19:1 and 2,” and claiming that “the phrase ‘covenant of works’ in 19:1 is appositive to the noun ‘law'” (italics added). “Thus the ‘Law’ is reckoned here as a covenant of works. Thus when, 19:2 establishes ‘this law’ as the subject of the verb “was delivered,” the antecedent can be none other than the law defined as a covenant of works in 19:1.”

Thus, if I am following the “logic of the grammar” correctly, if (as we have shown above) then all the references to “this law” in this chapter, since they all have the same ultimate antecedent (namely the “law” referred to in sec. 1), must also be understood as referring to “none other than the ‘Law’ defined as a covenant of works in 19:1.” But that, of course, is impossible, for that would mean that “this law” spoken of there in sec. 2 as continuing for us is a covenant of works; as also the “law” spoken of in sec. 5 as “forever bind(ing) all, as well justified persons as others”; as well as the references to “the law” twice in sec. 6 as that which “true believers” are “not under…as a covenant of works”! I know Dr. Clark doesn’t believe that, but that is where the logic of his argument would lead him.

When Dr. Clark says in this blog that “the phrase ‘covenant of works,’ in 19:1 is appositive to the noun ‘Law’—”the second expression identifying or supplementing the first” The American College Dictionary—his argument is that therefore “this law” in sec. 2 “can be none other than the ‘Law’ defined as a covenant of works in 19:1.” But if all references to “law” or “this law” in this chapter must be references to law as a covenant of works, because that is the definition of law in this chapter, that would lead to the consequences noted in our previous paragraph, which cannot be true. The error in Dr. Clark’s argument is that the phrase “as a covenant of works” in sec. 1 is not appositive but restrictive. The little word “as” in the sec. 1 —”God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant or works—is a preposition here in the first sense listed in the Webster New World Dictionary: “as—preposition 1. in the role, function, capacity, or sense of “. The Confession says that God gave to Adam a law as a covenant of works, but it never says, or even suggests, that God ever so gave it to any person or nation after the fall.

In sec. 2 the important phrase “as such” appears, appears immediately after the reference to “this law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and…” The first usage of the word “such” as an adjective listed in the Webster New World Dictionary is: “such—adjective 1. of the same kind mentioned or implied.” Here in sec. 2 the phrase is “as such,” where “such” is a pronoun, meaning “as being what is indicated or suggested” Webster. And what is indicated in the sentence in sec. 2 is the purpose/function stated in the words immediately preceding “as such,” i.e., “to be a perfect rule of righteousness.” The words “as such” do not leap over all the words in the sentence in which it appears to go back to “as a covenant of works” at the beginning of sec. 1!

Note also that the two references to “covenant of works” with negative force in sec. 6—”not under the law as a covenant of works” and later “although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works”—must be read alongside the positive statement of sec. 2. Question: If true believers after the fall (including those who received the law on Mt. Sinai) be “not under the law, as a covenant of works” (sec. 6), how does the law relate to them? Answer: As “a perfect rule of righteousness.”

The meaning of 19:1-2 is so clear that I do not understand why any question concerning that meaning should ever have arisen. To state that meaning I can use no clearer words than the words the divines used: “God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works…This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai…”

Download the short document here.http://tinyurl.com/m26yecj

http://tinyurl.com/q7ftuq5

Samuel Rutherford
The Covenant of Life chapter XI by Samuel Rutherford
The Covenant of Life chapter XI by Samuel Rutherford

Samuel Rutherford
was a very prominent Scottish member of the Westminster Assembly, which sat in the 1640s. He published an extensive treatise on the covenant. It appeared in 1655, as was entitled The covenant of life opened, or, A treatise of the covenant of grace. In the eleventh chapter, Rutherford deals with several abberant views on the Mosaic covenant. First he deals with the Amyraldian view (espoused first by John Cameron, and later by Bolton), which argues that the Mosaic covenant is not a covenant of works or a covenant of grace, but rather a third “subservient” covenant. This view is rejected by the Standards, as well as the Formula Consensus Helvetica. Second, he deals with those who make the Mosaic covenant a covenant of works, completely different from the covenant of grace. This is the view of all Lutherans, as well as a very small minority of Reformed theologians. It is also rejected by the Standards (WCF 19:1-2, LC 101, etc, but we will deal with that issue elsewhere). Finally, he deals with the Arminian view. It is similar to the Amyraldian view, in that it also argues for three covenants entirely distinct in substance.

https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/the-covenant-of/
https://sites.google.com/site/themosaiccovenant/samuel-rutherford/the-covenant-of-life-opened
Anthony Burgess

Anthony Burgess’s Vindication of the Law and the Covenants

Anthony Burgess

Anthony Burgess’s Vindication of the Law and the Covenants (1647). Burgess was a prominent member of the Westminster Assembly. These lectures were internationally hailed as a solid defense of consensus Calvinism over against the more extreme views of the Calvinistic antinomians of the period, as well as those of the Papists, Socinians, and Arminians.

Burgess argues for the consensus position articulated in the Westminster Standards, that the Mosaic Law is a covenant of grace (cf. WCF 7:5-6; 19:1-2; LC #101). Over against this, he refutes three other aberrant minority views, who maintain that the Mosaic covenant was a covenant of works, a mixed covenant, or a subservient covenant. Note especially his insightful exegesis of the Ten Commandments towards the end: even the very form of the commandments presupposes that they are given in the context of a covenant of grace.

https://sites.google.com/site/themosaiccovenant/anthony-burgess
http://heritagebooktalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/burgess-vindiceae-text-complete.pdf

Robert Shaw
An exposition of the confession of faith of the Westminster Assembly of divines
Chapter 19
Robert Shaw states, Adam was created under this Law in a natural form but then was brought under it in the form of a Covenant.

Section I.–God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
Exposition

The law, as thus inscribed on the heart of the first man, is often styled the law of creation, because it was the will of the sovereign Creator, revealed to the reasonable creature, by impressing it upon his mind and heart at his creation. It is also called the moral law, because it was a revelation of the will of God, as his moral governor, and was the standard and rule of man’s moral actions. Adam was originally placed under this law in its natural form, as merely directing and obliging him to perfect obedience. He was brought under it in a covenant form, when an express threatening of death, and a gracious promise of life, was annexed to it; and then a positive precept was added, enjoining him not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, as the test of his obedience to the whole law.–Gen. ii. 16, 17. That this covenant was made with the first man, not as a single person, but as the federal representative of all his natural posterity, has been formerly shown. The law, as invested with a covenant form, is called, by the Apostle Paul, “The law of works” (Rom. iii. 27); that is, the law as a covenant of works. In this form, the law is to be viewed as not only prescribing duty, but as promising life as the reward of obedience, and denouncing death as the punishment of transgression. ….

Section II.–This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty toward God, and the other six our duty to man.

Exposition

Upon the fall of man, the law, considered as a covenant of works, was annulled and set aside; but, considered as moral, it continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness. That fair copy of the law which had been inscribed on the heart of the first man in his creation, was, by the fall, greatly defaced, although not totally obliterated. Some faint impressions of it still remain on the minds of all reasonable creatures. Its general principles, such as, that God is to be worshipped, that parents ought to be honoured, that we should do to others what we would reasonably wish that they should do to us–such general principles as these are still, in some degree, engraved on the minds of all men. – Rom. ii. 14,15. But the original edition of the law being greatly obliterated, God was graciously pleased to give a new and complete copy of it. He delivered it to the Israelites from Mount Sinai, with awful solemnity. In this promulgation of the law, he summed it up in ten commandments; and, therefore, it is commonly styled the Law of the Ten Commandments.

Notice what Shaw states. He notes the Original Natural form of the Law that Adam was under. Then he notes that Adam was brought under a Covenant of Works when an express threatening of death, and a gracious promise of life, was annexed to the Law.
John Ball
Treatise on the Covenants

Under this Covenant, the natural seed of Abraham bore the face of the Church and state, and God had promised abundance of temporals, and of spiritual a scantling; But all under the outward administration of the Covenant, were not in like manner partakers of the blessings promised in Covenant. For some had their part in temporal blessings only, and the outward ordinances; others were partakers of the spiritual blessings promised. But whatever good thing any of them enjoyed either temporal or spiritual, it was conferred upon them freely according to the Covenant of Grace, and not for the dignity of their works. It is true, the promise is conditional, if they obey, they shall reap the good things of the Land: but obedience was not a causal condition, why they should inherit the Land…So that herein there appears no intexture of the Covenant of works with the Covenant of Grace, nor any moderation of the Law to the strength and power of nature for the obtaining of outward blessings. But rather that God out of his abundant goodness is pleased freely to confer outward blessings promised in the Covenant upon some that did not cleave to him unfainedly, that he might make good his promise unto the spiritual seed, which by word and oath he had confirmed unto the Fathers.

(John Ball, A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace [1645], 142).
https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.c...apter-19-the-law-and-the-covenant-of-works-2/
https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/skirting-the-issue/
 

A.Joseph

Puritan Board Junior
“As I read Kline and am aware that there are differences, what should I look out for?
I have been told it leads to antinomianism but how?” Has this been answered? I’m curious myself.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I have been told it leads to antinomianism but how?” Has this been answered? I’m curious myself.

The logical implication is that since Old Testament ethics was an Intrusion into the present and not applicable today, and that includes the Ten Commandments, then they are applicable to the degree they are repeated in the NT.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
“As I read Kline and am aware that there are differences, what should I look out for?
I have been told it leads to antinomianism but how?” Has this been answered? I’m curious myself.
Many Baptists view the Mosaic Covenant as based upon works and not as COG, but we are not against Law of God.
 

Henry Hall

Puritan Board Freshman
Many Baptists view the Mosaic Covenant as based upon works and not as COG, but we are not against Law of God.
There's no question that the position that Mosaic ethics were merely eschatological intrusions is *against**God's Law*, i.e.
anti-nomian.
 

arapahoepark

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Many Baptists view the Mosaic Covenant as based upon works and not as COG, but we are not against Law of God.
David,
If you wouldn't mind please discuss 1689 Federalism elsewhere. Otherwise, if it is on topic and not distracting you may continue.
 

A.Joseph

Puritan Board Junior
Thank you, I think I understand, but can you provide me with an example of how “they are applicable to the degree they are repeated in the NT.” in either a positive and/or negative sense...
The logical implication is that since Old Testament ethics was an Intrusion into the present and not applicable today, and that includes the Ten Commandments, then they are applicable to the degree they are repeated in the NT.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Thank you, I think I understand, but can you provide me with an example of how “they are applicable to the degree they are repeated in the NT.” in either a positive and/or negative sense...

If the command is repeated in the NT, then it is valid today. That's pretty extreme, and students of Kline such as VanDrunen and RSC don't hold that view. If a Klinean holds to natural law, then the antinomian charge doesn't really apply.
 

Susan777

Puritan Board Sophomore
If the command is repeated in the NT, then it is valid today. That's pretty extreme, and students of Kline such as VanDrunen and RSC don't hold that view. If a Klinean holds to natural law, then the antinomian charge doesn't really apply.
How would you characterize the view that the 4th C is not intended for the whole of mankind but is only binding on the Christian?
 

Henry Hall

Puritan Board Freshman
If a Klinean holds to natural law, then the antinomian charge doesn't really apply.
He is *against**the law*--antinomian in the sense that, though God has delivered ethical content to us say, through Moses, the NL Klinean's natural law is made by him to be *the* guide for ethics.
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
If a Klinean holds to natural law, then the antinomian charge doesn't really apply.
I agree if we understand that Natural Law is more than just the second Tablet of the Decalogue. Some people say that only the second tablet is applicable for mankind in the civil kingdom.

“Scripture is not the appropriate moral standard for the civil kingdom.” David Van Drunen, “A Biblical Case for Natural Law”,p. 38 (2006)

“Biblical moral instructions are given to those who are redeemed and are given as a consequence of their redemption. The Ten Commandments, for example, provide not an abstract set of principles but define the life of God’s redeemed covenant people. David Van Drunen, “A Biblical Case for Natural Law”, (p. 39)

“Since membership in the civil kingdom is not limited to believers, the imperatives of Scripture do not bind members of that kingdom. These imperatives are not “directly applicable to non-Christians” (40).” David Van Drunen, “A Biblical Case for Natural Law,” p.40.

“Natural law is the only moral standard for which there is a common (though implied) indicative that grounds common imperatives: All people are created in God’s image and have this law written upon their hearts; therefore, they should conduct themselves according to the pattern of that image and the demands of the law.” David Van Drunen, “A Biblical Case for Natural Law”, p. 40.

“Scripture is not given as a common moral standard that provides ethical imperatives to all people regardless of their religious standing.” David Van Drunen, “A Biblical Case for Natural Law”, (p. 53)

Work through that mess.

Also, I propose that the gospel that some preach is truncated and only focused on Justification by faith alone. It also preaches a cheap grace. Remember when a well noted Professor was defending a PCA Pastor for his weak stance concerning the gospel? It was kind of an infamous situation. The PCA Pastor taught a gospel that only focused on justification. I do not believe the Professor is defending that Pastor any longer.

To be fair. Orthodoxy is important to Orthopraxy. I have seen good teachers fall too. We all need to be careful. At the same time a Gospel that teaches a cheap grace only focusing on justification (or over emphasizes justification by faith alone) and not including sanctification or an inward renewing and transformation is a hopeless truncated gospel. There is no real reconciliation of our heart toward God. It has a form of Godliness but denies the power of it. Regeneration changes us inwardly so that we don't remain ememies toward God in our hearts also. Remember Paul wrote Romans 6 after chapter 5 and Romans Chapter 8 after chapter 7.

I noted in a previous thread years ago that the Ten Commandments made me desire God. I didn't have a Luther experience where I was terrified like him. I was fearful but not like him. If the God who wrote the Ten Commandments was as good as those Commandments were I wanted Him. I was drawn to God by the Ten Commandments. I saw that God was good and I wanted to know him and be like him. I was such a bad person and tried to be good but I just didn't have it in me. I tried to overcome deep depravities and faults only to just seem to get worse. In 1981 I met the Saviour who would reconcile me to God by his death and renewing of His Spirit. The Gospel is more than just justification by faith alone.



Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
 
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PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
Samuel Rutherford and Natural Law

I asked Dr. Guy Richards how Rutherford defined Natural Law based upon the quote below. He answered me and allowed me to blog his answer.
https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.c...-and-natural-law-question-for-dr-guy-richard/

Disputations
Chapter 1
Of Conscience and its nature.
“Of this intellectual Treasure-house, we are to know these. 1. That in the inner Cabinet, the natural habit of Moral principles lodgeth, the Register of the common notions left in us by nature, the Ancient Records and Chronicles which were in Adam’s time, the Law of Nature of two volumes, one of the first Table, that there is a God, that he createth and governeth all things, that there is but one God, infinitely good, more just rewarding the Evil and the good; and of the second Table, as to love our Parents, obey Superiors, to hurt no man, the acts of humanity; All these are written in the soul, in deep letters, yet the Ink is dim and old, and therefore this light is like the Moon swimming through watery clouds, often under a shadow, and yet still in the firmament. Caligula, and others, under a cloud, denied there was any God, yet when the cloud was over, the light broke out of prison, and granted, a God there must be; strong winds do blow out a Torch in the night, and will blow in the same light again; and that there be other seeds, though come from a far land, and not growing out of the ground, as the former, is clear, for Christ scattereth some Gospel-truths in this Chalmer; as John 7.28. Then cried Jesus in the Temple; as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and whence I am. John 15.24. But now they have both seen, and hated both me and my Father.”
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
How would you characterize the view that the 4th C is not intended for the whole of mankind but is only binding on the Christian?

I'm not sure. I don't know who exactly says that. Being that the 4th C is actually a creation ordinance, I suppose we could start there.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
If the command is repeated in the NT, then it is valid today. That's pretty extreme, and students of Kline such as VanDrunen and RSC don't hold that view. If a Klinean holds to natural law, then the antinomian charge doesn't really apply.
The NT writers brought back over all 10 Commandments, only change being that The Day of the Lord does not need to be Saturday as our Sabbath, as Sunday in s the day we now observe in the Church.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Surely. These are laws which are cases of Decalogical Commandments, but they are not in the 10 Commandments. Many case laws are ethical in content, e.g. the law against bestiality.
I hold to us still being under the Moral Law of God in out behavior, but would not see us being all of those specific rules and regulations just meant for Israel under the OC.
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
The following quote is from a defender of R2K on the Puritanboard. This was where some were going off the rails in my estimation. The dichotomizing of Law and Grace to extremes were working their way into defining a lot of areas of theology. Union with Christ, The Gospel, and Christology (the Authority of Christ) were three areas that have been effected.

"
Post made in 2011 on the Puritanboard

Not being a theonomist or theocrat, I do not believe it is the state's role to enforce religion or Christian morality. So allowing something legally is not the same as endorsing it morally. I don't want the state punishing people for practicing homosexuality. Other Christians disagree. Fine. That's allowed. That is the distinction. Another example - beastiality is a grotesque sin and obviously if a professing member engages in it he is subject to church discipline. But as one who leans libertarian in my politics, I would see problems with the state trying to enforce it; not wanting the state involved at all in such personal practices; I'm content to let the Lord judge it when he returns. A fellow church member might advocate for beastiality laws. Neither would be in sin whatever the side of the debate. Now if the lines are blurry in these disctinctions, that is always true in pastoral ministry dealing with real people in real cases in this fallen world.

Todd Bordow
Pastor of OPC Rio Rancho, NM
"

Boldened is emphasized by me. RMS

Do I need to say anything about this being antinomian?
 
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