Psychics/Fortune Tellers

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I've read Wimber. Don't see the problem. He is more level-headed than most of his critics and he doesn't make outlandish claims. If our God is the kind of God that does the supernatural, and assuming Wimber isn't outright lying, then there is prima facie reason to believe him.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I've read Wimber. Don't see the problem. He is more level-headed than most of his critics and he doesn't make outlandish claims. If our God is the kind of God that does the supernatural, and assuming Wimber isn't outright lying, then there is prima facie reason to believe him.
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He is Charismatic, and some of his theology would be listed under "Charasmatic Chaos" category.
 
I am aware that Wimber believes in the supernatural gifts working today. So do I. Labeling him as such isn't much of an argument. Now if he starts making claims like Creflo Dolla, then we might be on to something.

In any case, my worldview can accommodate the supernatural happening today because:
a) I repudiate David Hume.
b) That's basically all that needs to be said regarding epistemology and metaphysics.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I am aware that Wimber believes in the supernatural gifts working today. So do I. Labeling him as such isn't much of an argument. Now if he starts making claims like Creflo Dolla, then we might be on to something.

In any case, my worldview can accommodate the supernatural happening today because:
a) I repudiate David Hume.
b) That's basically all that needs to be said regarding epistemology and metaphysics.
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I also believe that the Lord cna do whatever supernatural thing that he wants to happen even today, but John Wimber theology seem to indicate that we can name it and claim it, as we should have divine health and have no illness, and he also seemed to see that any bad things happening to us was a result of Satan, and he seemed to rule out that it could just be God correcting and trying to communicate to us in those situations.
 
Dachaser said:
but John Wimber theology seem to indicate that we can name it and claim it, as we should have divine health and have no illness, and he also seemed to see that any bad things happening to us was a result of Satan, and he seemed to rule out that it could just be God correcting and trying to communicate to us in those situations.
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This is so wrong on so many levels. He documents numerous cases in Power Healing and Power Evangelism where God won't heal.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
This is so wrong on so many levels. He documents numerous cases in Power Healing and Power Evangelism where God won't heal.
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I can appreciate that he was not nearly as bad as some charismatic faith healers, but he was not really grounded into the scriptures, as he also had those signs of words of knowledge and wisdom, and he did seem to base almost all of his teachings on Acts, and saw that as the model way that the Holy Spirit still operated even today.
 
Dachaser said:
I can appreciate that he was not nearly as bad as some charismatic faith healers, but he was not really grounded into the scriptures, as he also had those signs of words of knowledge and wisdom, and he did seem to base almost all of his teachings on Acts, and saw that as the model way that the Holy Spirit still operated even today.
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So you concede my original claim. As to the rest of your post, a bunch of assertions. I think the book of Acts is operative today.
 
Dachaser said:
He did seem to hold though that we had the right to experience divine health, as that was a part of the Gospel message
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I don't think that is what he said, and in any case "a right to divine health" (or a right to anything) is really ambiguous. Nobody outside of Creflo Dollar would make that claim (since it rules out Jesus).
 
BayouHuguenot said:
So you concede my original claim. As to the rest of your post, a bunch of assertions. I think the book of Acts is operative today.
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I would say that the book of acts would be an historical account of the transition period between old and new Covenants periods. The events and acts done there would be what happened to the early Church, but would not be normative to how we can expect the Holy Spirit to act today all of the time.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I don't think that is what he said, and in any case "a right to divine health" (or a right to anything) is really ambiguous. Nobody outside of Creflo Dollar would make that claim (since it rules out Jesus).
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He seemed to be holding that the Gospel had to have signs and wonders in order to be seen as the "Full Gospel".
 
Dachaser said:
He seemed to be holding that the Gospel had to have signs and wonders in order to be seen as the "Full Gospel".
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"Full Gospel" is a dangerously connotative phrase. Wimber did not say that people who didn't have signs and wonders didn't have the salvific benefits of Christ.
 
Dachaser said:
I would say that the book of acts would be an historical account of the transition period between old and new Covenants periods. The events and acts done there would be what happened to the early Church, but would not be normative to how we can expect the Holy Spirit to act today all of the time.
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I know that you say that. Those are assertions. They are not arguments. In any case, I think my and others' posts have satisfied the requirements of the OP.
 
Ryan&Amber2013 said:
Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.
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Ryan, it's not impossible that your mom belonged to the Lord and yet died from drug use. Sometimes God's final discipline on his own is to take them in death. 1 Corinthians 11: 29-33- "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

We learn from this passage that God will use death as chastening to save some from condemnation. It seems strange that it should be so, but so it is. It's comforting and gives reason to hope to know that this is true, in many cases.


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Jacob, you seem to want to equate Christian cessationism with David Hume. Arriving at cessationism has to do (as you know) with how one interprets Scripture; it has nothing to do with one having an atheistic philosophy on the supernatural. Scriptural cessationism believes just as much in the working of God and in the activity of Satan as charismatics and third-wave, um, wavers.


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Jeri Tanner said:
Scriptural cessationism believes just as much in the working of God and in the activity of Satan as charismatics and third-wave, um, wavers.
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Modern day cessationists do, or some anyway. The old positions taken by Warfield and Hodge on this point are just untenable, as even their supporters admit. There were a few on PB who thought all cases of demon possession, perhaps even in Scripture, were just psychoses.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
Jacob, you seem to want to equate Christian cessationism with David Hume. Arriving at cessationism has to do (as you know) with how one interprets Scripture; it has nothing to do with one having an atheistic philosophy on the supernatural. Scriptural cessationism believes just as much in the working of God and in the activity of Satan as charismatics and third-wave, um, wavers.


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Further, Hume wasn't trying to be an atheist. He was specifically agnostic regarding miracle-claims. My point was that the MacArthurites have the same methodology regarding miracles today.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Modern day cessationists do, or some anyway. The old positions taken by Warfield and Hodge on this point are just untenable, as even their supporters admit. There were a few on PB who thought all cases of demon possession, perhaps even in Scripture, were just psychoses.
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Far from untenable. So far as believing demon possession as thought about in most of today's culture that is untenable and a sigh of being under the dominion of the evil one.
 
earl40 said:
thought about in most of today's culture
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If you are talking about shows like the Exorcism, then I agree. But modern academic charismatic scholars have demonstrated that that is not what they are doing. Even cessationists like Vern Poythress admit that the academic charismatics aren't making such a silly claim.
 
I understand that this is a message board, but just wanted to put it out there that I did not mean to cause a debate in here (if it's even that) :confused:.

Anna Banana (the peace lovin hippie!) :hug:
 
So if the gifts are still continuing today, then we as reformed people are really suppressing the work of God through the Spirit. It seems that this is an important issue that we should be very careful with when it comes to our conclusions.
 
Ryan&Amber2013 said:
So if the gifts are still continuing today, then we as reformed people are really suppressing the work of God through the Spirit. It seems that this is an important issue that we should be very careful with when it comes to our conclusions.
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Whether the gifts continue or not is based on exegesis, not on whether I need to be careful in possibly implying that some people might be suppressing the Spirit. I leave that between those people and the Spirit. In any case, I never made such an implication.
 
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