Reforming a Church?

[Bladestunner316]

How did the reformers and christians throughout history go about reforming a church?

 

[Scott Bushey]

1) Holding to scripture; sola scriptura
2) Defining orthodoxy via creeds and confessions
3) Praying a lot!

 

[Laura]

I would posit that it proceeded from the pulpit and prayer. Perchance.

Seriously, that's what I get from reading some of Calvin's letters. He preached the whole counsel of God, he enlisted the prayer of all the saints, and he prayed steadfastly himself. There was also ministry to the widows and the poor, the natural outworking of proper theology.

Interesting question you've raised. I'm eager to hear what everyone else has to say.

[Edited on 9-30-2005 by Laura]

 

[Bladestunner316]

Good Input.

I was just thinking about how this would be handled for those who are reformed and dont want to leave a church but stay in hopes of contributing to a reformation.

How would some one handle it in a Dispensational-arminian church as opposed to a charismatic church?

blade

 

[Puritanhead]

IVP has a nice book entitled The Story of Christian Theology which has a good section on the Reformation, but as far as the spiritual aspect goes, I think Laura spelled it out adequately.

The question is a kind of open-ended Nathan. Care to go into specifics?

 

[Bladestunner316]

Id rather not go into specifics other than what I have stated.

How does one go about reforming a church like a Dispensational-arminian church or charismatic church?

Blade

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Id rather not go into specifics other than what I have stated.

How does one go about reforming a church like a Dispensational-arminian church or charismatic church?

Blade

Probably, reform like the Presbyterians of old did in the South Carolina backcountry in the eighteenth century when they tried to reform their Anglican neighbors.
:bigsmile:

**Here is an excerpt, which I found particularly funny about Presbyterian-Anglican relations in the backcountry of South Carolina in the mid-eighteenth century. It is told from the perspective a missionary of English pedigree who was sent to one of the token Anglican parishes in the Carolina backcountry. I found this story rather amusing... Anyway, jump ahead to page nine if you want to get to the gist of the story. FYI The quotations are the words of Rev. Woodmason, an Anglican clergyman.

[p. 5]
The Scots-Irish were proud of their heritage. They were, first of all, Scots. They knew their nation's tortured history and its mistreatment by the English. They were fervent Presbyterians whose forebears had been persecuted for their beliefs. They were family men and women and tended to stick close by their kinfolks.
...
[p. 9-10]
It would not be unfair to say that the backcountry was close to being a state of nature. There were settlements, but the only social organization was the church. Woodmason was an Anglican missionary to the backcountry settlements, but there were only two Anglican congregations beyond Parish End. There were several Quaker meetings... but most were Baptists or Presbyterians.
...
Sectarian animosities were fierce. Scotch-Irish Presbyterians were fervently devoted to their churches and just as fervently antagonistic to those who did not share their particular beliefs. They were the bane of Woodmason's existence and harassed him and any who attended his services. In one location, "[a] Presbyterian fellow carried off the Key to the Meeting House" so that services could not be held indoors. At Hanging Rock Creek, Woodmason was roughed up by "lawless Ruffians" who been hired by "debauch'd licentious fellows, and Scots Presbyterians." When the Anglican missionary persisted in holding a service, "a Gang of Presbyterians" interrupted it by "hallooing and whooping... like Indians." In the High Hills of the Santee, some Presbyterians "hir'd a Band of Rude fellows to come to Service who brought with them fifty-seven dogs (for I counted them) which in Time of Service they set to fighting, and I was obliged to stop." A little later, Woodmason took a dog to the home of the area's leaders and informed him "fifty-seven Presbyterians came that Day to Service, and that I had converted one of them, and brought Him home." He was fortunate to have been able to live to tell such a story.

The Book is called Partisans and Redcoats: The Southern Conflict That Turned the Tide of the American Revolution

[Edited on 9-30-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[JohnV]

Ditto what Scott said, but I would add that you practice a lot of patience. You're going to lose at first, so get used to it. When the pendulum is swinging one way, towards Arminianism, you've got the momentum to fight against too, not just the theology or ideas floating around. And mostly, no one will be interested in hearing it out, because they're too full of excitement about the new ones. You just have to wait it out a lot of the time, and be ready whenever the opportunity comes up.

Its not reason that brings on these new ideas, Nathan. It always in spite of reason, though they do their best to make it look reasonable.

 

[Bladestunner316]

Interesting you mention that Ryan I have a book im still reading called '500 years of religous history in america' and it is kinda depressing. Anyway. Thanks for the Post.

I should go around asking for the keys to all the non-reformed churchs and tell them I wont give em back till they convert.

blade

 

[Puritanhead]

I was being tongue-in-cheek!! I know being an uncouthed, hot-headed Ulster Scot gets you no where... from personal experience.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Id rather not go into specifics other than what I have stated.

How does one go about reforming a church like a Dispensational-arminian church or charismatic church?

Blade

Well, as someone who 'tried' that very thing a while ago......

Unless the pastor is open to discussing and believing scripture (and not just trying to make people feel comfortable), go to a reformed church. Listening to sermons on Sunday morning at my old church was sometimes like russian roulette. I grew exceedingly sick of the milk from the pulpit - I needed MEAT. And I was NOT getting fed. I 'tried' - discussions with the pastor, putting myself back 'out there' in service in the local body, attempting to build relationships, but honestly.... it ain't work. And communication at my old church was horrid anyway....

My old pastor and I had a short discussion on election, which he never told me EXACTLY where he fell on the issue. He said "i'm not putting anything controversial in the doctrinal statement". That really, REALLY irked me. But he's responsible for the flock under his charge and I'm not clergy.

Going through a church and 'sowing reformed theology' specifically with the purpose of attempting to 'change your church' from the inside out is asking for discord, in my opinion. It must begin from the pulpit and proceed outward. If it does not, you (the member) should leave.

All that said.....this was my 5/30 blog entry. Glean from it what you can.

Well, as most of you already know, I've made the decision to leave NSBF. My old Pastor and I met over a month ago in April and talked through some of my issues with NSBF, opportunities for growth and such. Well, consider this an exposition (more fully) of why.

Those of you who've been following the progress and development of me and my thoughts over the years, you'll remember this post to the BBWarfield discussion list about a year and two months ago where I said:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bbwarfield/message/17459

At my church, my pastor is open to discussions on theology with me and he believes (as I do) that my gifts lie heavily in the areas of teaching, evangelism, and *gasp* a call to eldership. I haven't dug into all of the opportunities at my present church. I want to do seminars, talks, etc... and my pastor is open to them - he's just waiting on a proposal from me. And I believe.... maybe naively, that
somewhere along the way, after digging into the text of scripture, my church would move more toward being reformed....at least in most of the leadership.

Now I've had this convo before with 2-3 of you *snicker* and I already know/hear the jokes. But things are looming more and more in my mind as of late.

Am I supposed to be an agent of change in my church ? Genuine opportunities are there for me to fellowship with folks in my present church a lot more and share the truth of reformed theology as well as just get more involved with folks and establish more authentic relationships with other believers - something that I have been lagging in. I have not participated in every opportunity at my church to fellowship more with folks and be a part of their lives and allow them to be a part of mine.

On the flip side, sometimes I feel like I'm STARVING for expositional preaching. I mean DEEP stuff. Sometimes, we get some pretty decent sermons on Sunday morning and many times, Pastor or whomever is preaching, does a VERY good job bringing forth the Word of God.

But I'm a Calvinist. And my 'doctrines-o'-grace'-o-meter has a tendency to go off when I hear things like 'accept Christ' , the pre-packaged 'sinners' prayer' and many more of the unbiblical elements that Charles Finney has introduced into modern evangelicalism which folks have imbibed and taken as normative.

Other times.... we follow the fads of the day. I've never been a fan of the Seeker Movement, so Hybels, Warren and others are not friends of mine. I'm sick of hearing about the Purpose Driven Life (my pastor is preaching through it) - I think it's milk, drivel and I have serious theological issues with Warren's use of questionable dynamic and Catholic translations in his book. Many times, the scriptures he quotes do NOT support what he makes them appear to support (and I have a review of PDL coming up that I'll be doing on my site shortly). I'm sick of seeing a pragmatic approach toward church.... and while I believe that we have *some* freedom in how we set up some aspects of our worship service (i.e.- music style and choices, provided they are theologically correct, communion as a weekly part of service or not), some things like 'announcements' and 'skits' and such are NOT a part of a Biblical worship service. The preaching is kinda average most of
the time - they seek to draw people in and therefore, rarely step on folks toes beyond what they may already be accustomed to.

Sometimes the preaching represents a Biblical view of conversion and the gospel, sometimes not. Sometimes I get the good Luke 9:23 sermons and sometimes... I get the 'cheap grace no-Lordship' gospel (for my non-reformed friends who are getting this BCC'd to them, the 'non-Lordship' version of the gospel message is that teaching you normally hear which says that one can have Jesus as Savior but not as
Lord - a very unbiblical teaching and downright heretical, but normative in a lot of churches today).

On the flip side (again), there are MANY positive things about my church. Our small groups (care groups) are GREAT. People, for the most part, really care about people. The care group leaders - especially my care group leader - really care about PEOPLE and their growth in Christ. We have some pretty decent programs and groups going on - men's bible study, women's bible study and normally Wed. night
Bible study (they're going through PDL in Wed. night now....so bleh). When pastor does expositional preaching... he's ON POINT. Church discipline is practiced. I don't have to worry about egalitarianism - we all agree on the issue of women as elders in the church being incorrect and unbiblical. Other basics - Trinity, salvation by faith alone in Christ alone apart from works, the authority of scripture and innerrancy, etc.... are all staples of our doctrinal statement. As I
began this letter stating, my home church is SOUND, but not REFORMED. So they have 'enough' to spur on some definite growth in some folks, but I think there's a 'glass ceiling' that everyone hits after a point because they're NOT reformed.

Part of everything going on in my head is also a desire to SERVE somewhere. I partly feel (rightly) that I haven't done my best to try and serve with these gifts where I am - so why leave and head to another church ?

What's changed since then ?

NSBF hasn't really moved much. Still the same ol' traditional black baptist church with the non-denominational nametag on it. My old care group leader/the only other elder - LEFT. We've taken back in two old ministers who are there for as long as God tells them to be (both of them realize they won't be at NSBF forever).

I've grown. I've been through some serious problems, issues, a relationship that was supposed to be progressing to marriage which ended, physical therapy, financial issues and much more.... and the Lord has given me much wisdom as a result of my experiences. I've learned to be a better communicator, I've grown an increasing desire to see God's glory manifested and His saving grace lived out in my life and proclaimed to others consistently. I've turned from my prideful and self-centered times and moved toward thinking more Biblically about all areas of the Christian faith. I still struggle with some of the same issues I had personally a year ago, but not as much as I used to. I've redesigned my ministry site, sought to reach out to more, done more writing, thinking and developed new material in an effort to reach more folks with a Christ-centered message.

Knowledge, wisdom and stature.

I've put in a propopsal to NSBF (as most of you who keep up should know by now), which was put to be organized by the dude who does outreach at my church (a good brother). Well, I called to talk with him, left a message and haven't gotten a call back. This was 2 weeks ago. No, I haven't tried to call him again - the past two weeks have been kinda rough, so I understand that these things happen.

In the meantime, I've had more conversations with folks and I've grown some more. Tony (pastor of Gaithersburg Comm. Church) has been an invaluable friend to me. So has my boy Derek from Believer's Chapel in B-more. Between these two guys, I've found a ton of accountability (the Lord even impressed it on Derek's heart to pop in on my last Sunday when I'd been home and to give me some encouragement and 'stir me up' to better works in Christ), fellowship and 'iron sharpening'. I thank God for these two men and their efforts in my life.

Tony and I went to the Eastern District Leadership meeting for his church's denomination the weekend of April 9.

I got to meet Greg Strand and here him give the leadership (mostly pastors) of the EFCA a great presentation/stirring up to good works on the importance of holding to solid teaching in their churches and how to apply it. I was introduced to the eastern district superintendent for the region and the director of church planting for the region. I got to meet a buncha pastors - some Calvinist, some not - from all over the area. I got to fellowship with a buncha brothers in sisters and Christ whose heart and passion for truth match my own.

I spent a lot of time over the past year (since the e-mail discussion above) thinking about and researching other denominations. I primarily looked at the PCA and the Free Church. The SBC has a 'Calvinist Wing' under the auspices of the Founders' Ministries, but they really just didn't appeal to me. I looked (and am still looking heavily) into Sovereign Grace Ministries, but their view on spiritual gifts just doesn't sit right with me when I read scripture. They're great in every other aspect, though. In fact, they're kinda #2 on my list right behind the EFCA.

I've talked with my pastor previously and told him I need training. I need to be used. The call to teach is there. I have to do SOMETHING before I explode or something. I feel driven. And change isn't happening at NSBF. My personal growth and opportunities for me to grow more, serve more, etc.... aren't happening at NSBF. My theological convictions have come to the top - I can't be at NSBF anymore and hold the views that I do. There are more opportunities for me to teach outside of NSBF, more opportunities to serve outside of NSBF.... just more. And that's what I need right now. So I'm leaving. I'm heading to a reformed church and get trained and used properly. There's not enough going on at NSBF to engage me. It's time to move on.

This, of course, has HUGE implications. I was actually in the process of getting FFT (First Friday Talks) together at NSBF. I was getting 're-connected' with folks at church, spending more time in the church with its' membership and leadership and really attempting to pour myself and my life into the church. I don't feel like it was really being done back in return, though - with a few exceptions here and there. But that aside, the major issue is thus: my convictions and beliefs are not where NSBF is. NSBF's doctrinal statement is broadly accepting of many different evangelical type folks. Personally, I'm a lot more narrow. Not that I believe that non-Calvinists aren't saved, but rather, I believe that we are responsible for learning and believing ALL that the Bible teaches.... and I didn't see that happening at NSBF... just the same lame topical sermons over and over again... and while they were and are feeding someone they weren't feeding ME.

Those of you who are Calvinists know.... when you get to talkin' about the Sovereignty of God, sometimes folks look at you like you're from another planet. I gotta be around people who are like-minded.... and there are "other" issues with NSBF...but I don't wanna bad-talk NSBF on the internet. Suffice to say, I'm not connected there....or rather, I wasn't connected there.

I've heard, since leaving, that folks have asked about me. Well, I'll meet up with folks again one day. Meanwhile, I have some more growing to do and some more work to do with building relationships with my new church fam @ GChurch. So far, so good.

http://www.theologicallycorrect.com/webmaster/blogs/index.php?p=75&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

 

[Bladestunner316]

Good advice JohnV!!!

Ryan,
being a hot head never helps

blade

 

[Puritanhead]

Kerry,

You obviously found a good Bible-preaching sovereign grace church. When I was attending Regent Law (before I ran out of money), I went to Sovereign Grace a lot in Chesapeake, VA. C.J. Mahaney and his peers gave some substantive sermons there and the book store was awesome. I think you mentioned him before, perhaps he was a guest speaker. I'm not sure how he or if Sovereign Grace Ministries is affiliated, but I know they have a church or two in Maryland. In any case, you seem to have found a good church home from you're saying.

 

[JohnV]

I tried for years to bring reformation to my home church. I was convicted that another church was not an option. If I left, it would be by their hand And since then its been more of the same. I sometime want to go back to the original church. Sure, they're quite liberal now, and I don't think they can even pronounce Reformed anymore much less know what it stands for. But I'm not really any better off anywhere else. For all the struggles that I face in "Reformed" churches I might as well be back in the anti-Reformed former denomination. At least there aren't as many sophisticated pretenses in the way.

My wife and I talked about it, and we feel we wouldn't be home there anymore, as it has changed far too much to be recognizable and to be recognized anymore. Going back is a lot harder than if we had stayed back then. And I find it harder and harder to justify our leaving in the first place. Its not that the church wasn't apostasizing, its that we were no better off going more orthodox Reformed churches. They weren't necessarily more othodox, they just weren't doing the same thing at the same pace. Years down the road they were doing the same thing, only with other issues. It doesn't matter what they are replacing the Word with, its just that they were doing it for their own reasons.

That's why I advocate patience, and stick it out if you can. But definitely don't compromise what is not yours to compromise.

 

[Puritanhead]

**Puritanhead sighs at the compromises made at most churches these days.**

 

[Bladestunner316]

Thanks for the Post kerry its alot to digest

blade

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
Kerry,

You obviously found a good Bible-preaching sovereign grace church. When I was attending Regent Law (before I ran out of money), I went to Sovereign Grace a lot in Chesapeake, VA. C.J. Mahaney and his peers gave some substantive sermons there and the book store was awesome. I think you mentioned him before, perhaps he was a guest speaker. I'm not sure how he or if Sovereign Grace Ministries is affiliated, but I know they have a church or two in Maryland. In any case, you seem to have found a good church home from you're saying.

C. J.'s the founder of Sovereign Grace Ministries. He just turned the reigns of SGM's 'home' church (Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD) to Josh Harris a year ago (Sept. 18th to be exact). Their bookstore IS awesome.... but their position on Spiritual Gifts is my major issue. And being called to eventually be in ministry, I know their doctrinal statement necessarily excludes 'open but cautious' or 'practical cessationists' like myself.

that and.... when folk started doing the glossalia thing, I get a little on the weirded out side... simply because my rational mind says glossalia = known languages not previously learned by the speaker NOT unintelligible prayer language between you and God. My pastor (Tony Arnold) came up in a Pentecostal church and 'faked' speaking in tongues. Years later, after coming to the Doctrines of Grace, they pulled him from preaching the week he was to start in Romans 9 and during one discussion with the elders, he told them he faked it. One replied 'No, you didn't! I was there! I interpreted for you!' That alone lets me know that there's no REALLY verifiable way to discern whether or not the 'gift of tongues' was really legit. Folks in a hyperemotional state can imagine and feel a lot, even if they are Calvinists.

I hate D.C. I think one of the only good things about DC (aside from Howard University) is Capitol Hill Baptist Church.... but I ain't drivin' there every Sunday.

So it came down to:
- Deal with charismata, but get good expositional teaching 90% of the time, build good relationships, but eventually not be able to serve as you were called
- Drive to DC every Sunday...and Wednesday... and other days
- Drive to Gaithersburg and deal with Paedobaptism as the only 'issue' in a denom where both credos and paedos are accepted.

So I am where I am after some serious prayer and searching. I like G-Church. And my pastor and I were already friends before I joined.

BTW - keep him in prayer. He's in Africa right now on a missions' trip.

[Edited on 10-1-2005 by OS_X]