RIP PCA?

[Covenant Joel]

But I believe they have been doing that, only very ineffectively. Doubling down on the current strategy seems unlikely to be effective going forward. Thus I suggest approaching it differently.

And that is what the North Carolina folks are trying to do - brainstorm on what the response should be. While you seem to be arguing for the status quo.

If that's all it is, that's great. But it seemed to me--perhaps I'm mistaken--to be, "The PCA is lost, so let's decide when and how we should leave, and what we should do in the meantime before we do." But if it's really to be about how to be more winsome and clear and effective in articulating biblical fidelity, then I'm all for it.

 

[Edward]

give me an idea how the PCA distributes itself at present. That would help me (as an outsider) to understand the current debate more fully.

depends on 1) where you draw the lines and 2) whether you are counting members, churches, or presbyteries.

As for the first:

ordaining women as elders - tiny minority
ordaining women as deacons - larger, but still small minority
unordained women deaconesses - larger still minority
women reading scriptures in service - perhaps a small majority
women helping in care ministries - probably a sizable majority

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Here is yet another take on the PCA GA, from an elder's wife. This is particularly good getting at the main issue. http://heidelblog.net/2016/06/how-t...-of-women-in-the-church-appears-to-one-woman/

 

[DMcFadden]

give me an idea how the PCA distributes itself at present. That would help me (as an outsider) to understand the current debate more fully.

depends on 1) where you draw the lines and 2) whether you are counting members, churches, or presbyteries.

As for the first:

ordaining women as elders - tiny minority
ordaining women as deacons - larger, but still small minority
unordained women deaconesses - larger still minority
women reading scriptures in service - perhaps a small majority
women helping in care ministries - probably a sizable majority

Thanks! The PCA is outside my own gated community. I am still hoping to fellowship with you in heaven, however, albeit separated by barbed wire and barking dogs. Still, I have long thought that the PCA is to PCUSA as LCMS is to ELCA or the CBA is to the ABCUSA. Both the PCA and the LCMS are confessional (the CBA being "conservative" since Baptist denoms of that size typically don't have confessions these days), inerrancy affirming, denoms standing against egalitarianism in a culture that embraces it. Last year the LCMS faced a "study committee" moment in the form of a popular and prominent college professor advocating for the ordination of women to the pastoral office and Biologos theistic evolution. He was dealt with in this crisis de jour by some leaders "encouraging" the academic to relocate to the more harmonious (for him) environs of mainline ELCA.

It seems to me that the standard higher critical approach leads to a "nuanced" hermeneutic that reasons like this: the pastoral epistles deny the office of the ministry to women for cultural reasons, to whit, the Ephesian women who had been in the various goddess cults would give Christianity a bad name. But, now that we are in a culture that has practically made a religion out of egalitarianism, denying the office of the ministry to women will (in this cultural context) give Christianity a bad name. Hence, we must all ordain women to the pastoral ministry if for no other reason than the apologetic and evangelistic one. This juggernaut has already rolled over the mainlines and almost conquered broad evangelicalism in toto. It will take a VERY strong and concerted effort to keep the PCA from going the same direction. It would seem that this study commission, albeit set up to deal with the issue of women as deacon office holders, may presage a wider discussion of egalitarianism.

Some of the other conservative confessional bodies in the US are dealing with the same issues as the PCA. Many of them have a minority (10-20%???) who want to ape the evangelicals, as much out of size envy as a desire for faithfulness (in my opinion) and another minority (10-20%???) striving to keep the church pointed in a confessional direction. The vast middle of these bodies include folks who consider themselves "conservative, but not narrow; practical, but not willing to do everything the evangelicals (or liberals) do. Appealing to the middle is where the votes are decided. Any pitch which seems more doctrinaire than winsome pushes the middle to the left or the right on any given issue. Part of this problem relates to the lack of deep convictions by those in the middle and their susceptibility to smooth talk.

Given that confessional true believers often come off as angry and more concerned with truth than love in their public presentations, the left (however a group defines "left") end of the spectrum often wins the day.

 

[Romans922]

But it seemed to me--perhaps I'm mistaken--to be, "The PCA is lost, so let's decide when and how we should leave, and what we should do in the meantime before we do." But if it's really to be about how to be more winsome and clear and effective in articulating biblical fidelity, then I'm all for it.

Please read again.

There are very clearly 3 options, not 2 and not 1, but 3:

Dear Confessional PCA Brothers, I have asked our session to consider hosting a convocation of sessions this fall, and we will officially vote on the matter on July 9th.
The aim of the convocation would be to gather theologically conservative PCA elders so that we might hear from leading lights on the Confessional side of the aisle and consider, discuss, and pray about the following question:
"In light of recent events in the PCA, should theologically conservative congregations:
1) Stay in the PCA and continue to fight for her theological integrity? (If so how?)
2) Break with the existing PCA and create a continuing PCA denomination? (if so how and when?)
3) Attempt to Join en masse with one of the more conservative Reformed denominations or join individually with whichever denomination would fit the theology of our congregation best? (If so, which option and which denomination?)"
While the final form of the question will be framed by our session, I imagine that we will ask speakers to choose and defend the option they support and recommend.
More details to follow...

 

[Covenant Joel]

Please read again.

There are very clearly 3 options, not 2 and not 1, but 3:

Clearly, three were stated. So fair enough. But given that it was only in 2014 that Andy Webb (or his session to be precise I think) submitted "5 Reasons Why it Might be Time to Leave the PCA" it's not unreasonable to read this is as leaning in a certain way.

But regardless, I suppose I should read it as written, so sorry for that. I do genuinely hope that there will be those who speak for option 1, not in terms of doing politicking, but in terms of prayerfully considering how to speak in ways that are persuasive.

 

[Covenant Joel]

Upon further reflection, perhaps a few more comments are in order:

(1) My tone may have suggested that I don't appreciate the efforts of our brothers to hold the PCA to her confessional commitments. That is not the case. While I am concerned about the way that has been done many times, I am deeply grateful for the men who are committed enough to the Scriptures and the Reformed faith to stick their necks out and seek to communicate their perspective even when they know their words may not be appreciated.

(2) Related to the first, part of my concern is that an overreaction to a study committee on this issue would remove some men that we really need to stay. I believe we need the voices of those who are concerned about holding fast to the Confession, and so if this convocation happens, I hope there are voices that will speak for that.

 

[TheOldCourse]

OK, I get that you don't like my question or the continuum that is implied by a "left to right" typology. The same could be said about American politics categorized in terms of left and right. It will always be more complex than that. But, political scientists regularly speak of the percentages of people in America who self-identify as left, middle, and right. All I'm asking is that someone in the PCA who can speak knowledgeably (this does not mean authoritatively), could give me an idea how the PCA distributes itself at present. That would help me (as an outsider) to understand the current debate more fully.

Thanks, btw, for the articles. They were quite helpful.

Fair enough. My own guess is that on the continuum, the far left side and far right side are actually both pretty small, not more than 10% each. So the middle is probably the largest section, with probably pretty even distribution on which side of the line they lean (if we were to use left and right in this way, which is not entirely fair I think). But considering that in 2015, only 1,400 commissioners attended (roughly 1000 of which were TEs), that leaves an awful lot of both TEs (I think they total over 4,000 if memory serves) and REs (way more) unrepresented. So even GA votes probably don't really tell us that much about the large majority of elders' views.

Perhaps more useful is comparing the different attempts that have been made:

Bryan Chapell: The State of the PCA (2015)
Rick Phillips: Dear Bryan: Replying to the State of the PCA (2015)
Dewey Roberts: Qualifying the State of the PCA (2015)
Tim Keller: What's so Great about the PCA (2010, long)

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I could locate quickly.

The problem seems to be that the 80% middle is itself well to the left of most of the NAPARC and that 10% on the far right would probably represent an ordinary, average OPC or URC confessionalism. The state of the fourth commandment and that it's nearly impossible to deal with that far left 10% makes that pretty clear in my opinion.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

How many PCA churches have regular teaching on the PCA's doctrine as exhibited in the Confession of Faith and Catechisms and of those how many at the very least give equal fair time to it instead of to the exceptions they were taught in seminary?

 

[Covenant Joel]

How many PCA churches have regular teaching on the PCA's doctrine as exhibited in the Confession of Faith and Catechisms and of those how many at the very least give equal fair time to it instead of to the exceptions they were taught in seminary?

Obviously, no one knows. Any perspectives we have would likely be pretty subjective. But in that vein, in the past few years, I have worshiped/preached/taught in 20+ different PCA churches in different parts of the country (so various presbyteries). In that limited experience, I'm not sure it's as rare as one might think, at least to teach through doctrines of the Standards. Indeed, officers classes, from what I've been able to tell, commonly go through the Confession from beginning to end.

This is not to deny, of course, that the exceptions you reference aren't common. We are not currently a full subscription denomination. I know many on here wish that was not the case, but in and of itself I'm not convinced that is a sign that it's time to leave the denomination (or else that should have taken place a while back).

 

[Beezer]

How many PCA churches have regular teaching on the PCA's doctrine as exhibited in the Confession of Faith and Catechisms and of those how many at the very least give equal fair time to it instead of to the exceptions they were taught in seminary?

I have only been a member of the PCA for a couple years now and my direct experience has only been in two PCA churches in Central Virginia. Sure I've visited other PCA churches when I've been out of town on travel, but my thumb has only ever been on the pulse of two in Central VA. If I had to apply a label on them I'd describe them both as falling pretty far left of center and in no way churches that would be considered confessional. When taking the membership class at one of these two churches there was never any mention of the Westminster Standards and when I asked the senior pastor whether the elders took any exceptions to the WCF was told "Hmm. I don't know. I've never asked them." The new members booklet quoted Rick Warren extensively in the section on the importance of church membership. Not making that up. I never heard the WCF taught/referenced in Sunday School for adults or for children. Needless to say, my family only stayed there a year before driving three times farther to go to the other PCA church in the area. The other PCA church is hyper-egalitarian and preaches/teaches a social gospel. I've never heard the WCF mentioned at this church either. My family and I are currently at a KAPC church that has a PCA pastor running the English service. Sigh.

 

[johnny]

give me an idea how the PCA distributes itself at present. That would help me (as an outsider) to understand the current debate more fully.

depends on 1) where you draw the lines and 2) whether you are counting members, churches, or presbyteries.

As for the first:

ordaining women as elders - tiny minority
ordaining women as deacons - larger, but still small minority
unordained women deaconesses - larger still minority
women reading scriptures in service - perhaps a small majority
women helping in care ministries - probably a sizable majority

It seems to me that the standard higher critical approach leads to a "nuanced" hermeneutic that reasons like this: the pastoral epistles deny the office of the ministry to women for cultural reasons, to whit, the Ephesian women who had been in the various goddess cults would give Christianity a bad name.

I have heard this reason used to deny head covering as well,

 

[Pilgrim]

When the old Presbyterian Journal, and Presbyterian Guardian were, whether intentionally or not, killed off by the PCA and OPC starting denominational magazines, an effective independent voice was lost. This makes it more difficult; to call to the attention of the average ruling elder, errors floating around in their denomination.

Although the Journal that Chris puts out is technically independent (if I recall). I just got the new issue last week and in there he points out that the Sabbath is being lost (well...its being killed) by progressives in the PCA. Good read. I'd highly recommend the Journal and this issue in particular.

https://www.cpjournal.com/

Speaking of which, I visited a PCA congregation today that seemed, from what I could tell ahead of time, to be more towards the confessionally conservative side of the denomination and by no means progressive (at least as far as the region in question goes). After worship the pastor came over and invited my wife and I out to lunch with some other couples who do this regularly (and out meaning to a restaurant, not their home). Surprised, I said that it is not my wife and I's practice to eat at restaurants on Sundays and the pastor seemed to not recognize in the least that we were referring to any sort of scruples regarding the 4th commandment. I can understand to some extent one taking an exception with confessional language and differing on exegesis on the point, but it's astonishing that a long-time minister would flout the confession openly with a visitor from another NAPARC church without any consciousness of the issue. Has it really gone so far in the denomination?

I had that happen in the same Presbytery. Unless there has been a drastic change in the past 8 years, you might have at most 15-20% of TEs in that presbytery that don't take exception on the 4th Commandment. It may be closer to 10%. At that time there might have been 3-4 who didn't take exception, and I think maybe one or two of them aren't there anymore. (Some of the ones who take exception say they hold to the "continental" view but it seems that at least some may behave as if it is the dispensational view.)

 

[Pilgrim]

How many PCA churches have regular teaching on the PCA's doctrine as exhibited in the Confession of Faith and Catechisms and of those how many at the very least give equal fair time to it instead of to the exceptions they were taught in seminary?

I have only been a member of the PCA for a couple years now and my direct experience has only been in two PCA churches in Central Virginia. Sure I've visited other PCA churches when I've been out of town on travel, but my thumb has only ever been on the pulse of two in Central VA. If I had to apply a label on them I'd describe them both as falling pretty far left of center and in no way churches that would be considered confessional. When taking the membership class at one of these two churches there was never any mention of the Westminster Standards and when I asked the senior pastor whether the elders took any exceptions to the WCF was told "Hmm. I don't know. I've never asked them." The new members booklet quoted Rick Warren extensively in the section on the importance of church membership. Not making that up. I never heard the WCF taught/referenced in Sunday School for adults or for children. Needless to say, my family only stayed there a year before driving three times farther to go to the other PCA church in the area. The other PCA church is hyper-egalitarian and preaches/teaches a social gospel. I've never heard the WCF mentioned at this church either. My family and I are currently at a KAPC church that has a PCA pastor running the English service. Sigh.

We've recently been attending an EPC congregation that is actually going through the WCF in one of its Sunday School classes. It is the modernized version, which isn't my preference, but at least the people (this is a former PCUSA congregation) are learning that it exists. This is more evidence that in some cases there isn't a whole lot of difference between the more broadly evangelical PCA congregations and more solid EPC ones. Some former PCUSA congregations like this are moving to the "right" while some PCA ones are moving to the "left" or started that way to begin with in the case of some trendy church plants.